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George Sawtelle

Daniel Sheehan flow chart of the Kennedy assassination

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2 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cliff

Sorry, no disrespect towards you,  but I'll take Talbot's word over yours as to Dulles being the CEO of the Kennedy assassination.

Talbot wrongly claims only Dulles had the connections necessary to engineer the JFK assassination.

W. Averell Harriman had every tool at his disposal that Dulles had, and more.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Talbot wrongly claims only Dulles had the connections necessary to engineer the JFK assassination.

W. Averell Harriman had every tool at his disposal that Dulles had, and more.

 

 

And there's the Brown Brothers-to-Sullivan Cromwell link between Harriman and Dulles, which connects upward to the Rockefellers.  I doubt even Talbot thinks that Dulles originated the plot.  He was just happy to carry out orders he agreed with.

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6 hours ago, David Andrews said:

And there's the Brown Brothers-to-Sullivan Cromwell link between Harriman and Dulles, which connects upward to the Rockefellers.  I doubt even Talbot thinks that Dulles originated the plot.  He was just happy to carry out orders he agreed with.

Dulles worked for Harriman.

Happy to implicate family friends of his girlfriend in a Communist plot to kill JFK?

I don't see too much for Dulles to be happy about.

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28 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Dulles worked for Harriman.

Happy to implicate family friends of his girlfriend in a Communist plot to kill JFK?

I don't see too much for Dulles to be happy about.

Cliff - one can view the connections between Dulles, his girlfriend, and Ruth Paine’s mother, in a different light. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. This was a way to keep tabs on Oswald without leaving any paper trail. We all know now of these links, but it was well hidden at the time, mostly by Dulles himself on the WC. Again, he is in place afterwards to close off the leads that might have led in his direction. 

I don’t buy either of your arguments - That Dulles was incapacitated and couldn’t be trusted to handle the operation, or that Dulles was 3 degrees of separation from Ruth Paine. Seeing Dulles as the lynchpin does not negate your Harriman theory as you know. 

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6 hours ago, David Andrews said:

And there's the Brown Brothers-to-Sullivan Cromwell link between Harriman and Dulles, which connects upward to the Rockefellers.  I doubt even Talbot thinks that Dulles originated the plot.  He was just happy to carry out orders he agreed with.

Seems logical to me.

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41 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Cliff - one can view the connections between Dulles, his girlfriend, and Ruth Paine’s mother, in a different light. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. This was a way to keep tabs on Oswald without leaving any paper trail. We all know now of these links, but it was well hidden at the time, mostly by Dulles himself on the WC. Again, he is in place afterwards to close off the leads that might have led in his direction. 

And he was absolutely certain that a Warren Commission would be formed and he'd definitely get a prominent role in it?

Looks like Plan A was to frame Oswald as a Red agent and had they succeeded in killing Oswald Fri. afternoon there would have been no WC -- but there would have been an intense interest in the lefty Quaker Paines.

Quote

I don’t buy either of your arguments - That Dulles was incapacitated and couldn’t be trusted to handle the operation, or that Dulles was 3 degrees of separation from Ruth Paine. Seeing Dulles as the lynchpin does not negate your Harriman theory as you know. 

Of course...

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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Paul,

I've put Carl Jenkins and Henry Hecksher on the tackboard since we last discussed the case.

Along with Charles Siragusa, the FBN assassin-master who was involved with CIA Technical Services Staff in 1963.

I don't see a role for Dulles, frankly, except as a back-up patsy with E. Howard Hunt in case things went sideways and the Agency was directly implicated.

Jenkins and Hecksher taught the Thai Border Police how to ambush well-armed slow moving opium caravans, and taught the Kuomintang how to avoid ambushes of their opium caravans.  Who better to plan the ambush of a well-armed, slow moving auto caravan?

 

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19 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cliff

I think several CIA agents helped Dulles. I doubt Harriman had more influence with the CIA than did Dulles.

Interesting subject of inquiry.

You're aware of the elite enemies Dulles had?

https://cryptome.org/0001/bruce-lovett.htm

Robert Lovett and Joe Kennedy tried to get Dulles fired for years.

Robert Lovett was a life-long friend of Averell Harriman, Skull & Bones Brothers, bankers with the same firm -- Brown Brothers Harriman.

But Harriman backed Dulles.

Why?  I can only speculate Dulles was helping Harriman with business that Robert Lovett had nothing to do with.

What was the primary consequence of the Bay of Pigs?

The removal of Dulles, Charles Cabell and Richard Bissell and the promotion of Richard Helms as head of clandestine operations, Deputy Director for Plans.

Why assume that the primary consequence of an intel operation was not the intended result?

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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7 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Why assume that the primary consequence of an intel operation was not the intended result?

Absolutely. You can't necessarily take it to the bank, but it is short-sighted to not even consider it.

50 years of an antagonistic relationship withCuba and a care-free hegemony of Guantanamo informs my thinking that that is exactly what was planned. It would not have happened under JFK, I don't think he could imagine it.

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Rockefellers to Harriman-Lodge-Bundy to Dulles to Helms-Phillips-Harvey-Hunt-Morales.  There is room to add more influences and operatives at every level, but this is the through line of the story.

Edited by David Andrews

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