When did the Coke Appear?

[James DiEugenio]

LOL!

 

You really crack me up sometimes Davey.

 Thanks for the Xmas cheer.

 

[Michael Walton]

One thing that's on my mind about this and Ron Bulman did a nice job of bringing up is - if Baker was way back in the parade, it would have taken him a little bit more time to have arrived where he stopped, dismounted, and run over to go into the building as seen in the film.  Also, Truly seems to be just standing there as Baker runs by him so it's not like Truly suddenly starts galloping behind him.

With Ron's "30 seconds here and 20 seconds there" post above, could more time have elapsed than what the witnesses are stating?  Another thing too is people do misrememeber things.  For example, Truly said that he thought the car slowed down considerably at the corner to avoid the curb but if you watch the Towner and Bell films, both films prove him wrong (I know Chris D will disagree with me but that's on another thread to discuss).

I'm genuinely interested in this and am not agreeing nor disagreeing with anyone here.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 12:04 AM, James DiEugenio said:

Ron:

I do not know how familiar you are with the latest research that Bart has done on this issue of the alleged second floor lunchroom meeting, but his work has made that whole scenario quite dubious.

But if you go by the reconstructions of the WC as to how long it took for Baker to get to the second floor, it was about 75-90 seconds.  (Harold Weisberg, Selections from Whitewash, p. 56)

If one is defending the official story, then that simply means that Garner, Adams, and Styles were all consistent with each other.  

Bart, Stan Dane with Prayerman, Sean Murphy.  They have discredited the lunchroom encounter pretty thoroughly for me.  Which agrees with my previous belief of many years that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor when the shots were fired.

If Baker was seven cars behind JFK,  still on Houston yet to make the dogleg turn onto Elm when the last shot was fired, given the speed of the parade at that point it likely took him close to a minute to get to the point where he ditched the bike.  Say 30 seconds.  If the WC estimate is from the time he got off it that's getting up to 2-2/12 minutes to get to the second floor.  Then question Oswald, then go up to the third, on to the fourth.  Then they were seen After Adams and Styles went down.  I guess what I'm still getting at is The WC is BS, they had no investigative power, relied on the FBI thus Hoover for such, were stonewalled by Angleton and the CIA And were stymied from within.

Getting up to that 2-3 minute range is enough it seems to me to exit the building from the sixth floor.  Last shot.  Run to the freight elevator, toss A gun between preselected boxes on the way, down the elevator to the first floor, out the back door immediately to the left when the elevator gate opened, onto the back dock, waiting car, North on Houston, East on Pacific.  Maybe all rehearsed by one or two of the participants.  After hours or say early on a Sunday?  That would mean somebody had a key to the place...

Someone pointed out yesterday this is all speculation.  Yes.  But more likely than the official speculation?  Dallas Police Chief Curry said we never could put that man in that window with that gun (paraphrased from memory).  If you trust Fritz's notes via Bookout Oswald said he was out front with Shelly.  It kind of looks like he was.  A clearer picture might clear things up.  If a Dallas Main Stream Media affiliate would give it up

Edited December 28, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[Chris Davidson]

38 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

If Baker was seven cars behind JFK,  still on Houston yet to make the dogleg turn onto Elm when the last shot was fired, given the speed of the parade at that point it likely took him close to a minute to get to the point where he ditched the bike.  Say 30 seconds.  If the WC estimate is from the time he got off it that's getting up to 2-2/12 minutes to get to the second floor.  Then question Oswald, then go up to the third, on to the fourth.  Then they were seen After Adams and Styles went down.  I guess what I'm still getting at is The WC is BS, they had no investigative power, relied on the FBI thus Hoover for such, were stonewalled by Angleton and the CIA And were stymied from within.

 

 

Ron,

Baker is between the blue chevy convertible's(Hughes film). The lead one is in the background at Z233. 

Plotting the front end of it puts it at 96.25ft down Houston St.

Minus 17.5ft for car length and another trailing 10ft for Baker.

At extant Z233, Baker is 96.25ft - 27.5ft = 68.75 down Houston St.

If first shot was at Z223 = another 10/18.3frames = .546 x 13.47ft per sec = (9.3mph= average speed of motorcade down Houston)= 7.35ft

At z223, Baker is approx 68.75 - 7.35ft = 61.4ft down Houston St.

z313 - z223 = 90zframes = 4.91seconds

4.91 sec x 13.47ft per sec (9.3mph) = 66.13ft

z223= 61.4ft + 66.13ft = 127.5ft down Houston at Z313.

Corner to Corner Houston St = 200ft

CRB Corner to Baker's ultimate parking location if he followed the motorcade path around the Elm St turn = 82ft

So, at z313, Baker must drive 200 - 127.5 = 72.5 + 82 = approx 155ft to park his cycle.

If he maintains the 9.3mph(13.47ft per sec) motorcade speed for his final 155ft, it will take him 11.5seconds to get to his final destination.

Obviously, if he heard a shot earlier than z223, then his distance traveled after z313 would increase.

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The bottom line is that the work by Sandy L now confirms with photographic evidence what Meagher and Ernest indicated was the case.  Namely that the WC got Lovelady and Shelly to change their testimony.  Which is not only unethical prosecutorial behavior, but can get one disbarred. There is no way to deny that now: Sandy has shown it in black and white. But that is the kind of thing that happens when you have a runaway prosecution that is not hindered by any of the rules of evidence or practice that govern the adversary procedure. Those rules have developed over time to prevent this kind of rogue prosecution from occurring.

Thanks Jim for your vote of confidence.

There is something DVP and other 2nd-floor-encounter believers should know. And that is, I didn't begin my work with a goal in mind. Specifically, I did not know that what I was studying would lead to the conclusion that the second floor encounter didn't occur. I'm fairly new to the forum and as such am still unfamiliar with many things discussed here. But sometimes I see others here studying something that I take an interest in it. For example, I took an interest in finding Gloria Calvery because Robert Prudhomme and Thomas Graves were looking for her. I honestly had no idea why it was important to find her. Same thing with Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. But I took an interest in those people and set out to find out if their stories matched the photographic evidence. (Thanks go out to graphics geniuses like Chris Davidson and Robin Unger for making this possible.)

My point in making this clear is to show that I had no preconceived ideas I was trying to prove. And in fact, I came up with a couple of early hypotheses that ultimately proved to be wrong. For example, the one I laid out in this thread: "Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all." But my current hypothesis is standing up well to scrutiny. And it is my current hypothesis (which I now strongly believe to be true) that confirms the previous work of others, like Sylvia Meager, Barry Earnest, Sean Murphy, and Bart Kamp.

It is clear that the second-floor encounter did not occur.

This work is very important. One reason being that it helps to point out where Oswald really was during the motorcade and shooting. I'd have to go back and re-read all the interrogation reports again, after removing any second-floor-encounter nonsense added by the WC. But as I recall Oswald's remarks, he had bought a coke on the second floor and gone down and eaten his lunch in the first-floor employee lunchroom. After lunch  he stood around for a while (near the entrance, I believe) and then went out and stood near Bill Shelley when he heard the commotion. (The question remains... was it the commotion from the motorcade, or the commotion from the shooting?)

That is what Oswald said and there is no reason not to believe him. No one saw Oswald elsewhere during the shooting. There is no evidence that he held the rifle that day, let alone shot it. There is no credible evidence that he owned the rifle. (The nearest thing to such evidence is the postal  money order... but it has been proven that the PMO was never cashed.)

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Guest]

Jimmy Darnell died last Sept, btw (thanks to Vinny for telling me),

Here is a brief video

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Remembering-NBC-5-Photographer-Jimmy-Darnell_Dallas-Fort-Worth-449431703.html

I was going to post this in the Bill Kelley thread but that's not possible, so here.

[Guest]

Victoria Adams saw Joe Molina standing out front. She is actually the one person who acknowledges his presence in front of the TSBD.

Remember in Darnell Molina is seen standing on top of the landing of the front steps of the TSBD

Then.....

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL.. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe, I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.          

 

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL.. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe, I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.

 

I'll bet that the "other girl" was wearing all white, including a white scarf. I'll bet her name was either Karan Hicks or Carol Reed. Because these three had been standing together watching the motorcade. And we see them all in the Z-film inset below. But only two of them in the Darnell frame below.

If you watch the video carefully you can see the Woman in White trying to get Gloria to continue up the stairs with her. She has her by the arm.

 

 

[Guest]

Oh sure in Zapruder noticed (that is IF it is her) and dashed back at such speed to being filmed by Darnell calmly going up the stairs 15/20 seconds after the third shot.

Oh and ehm Lovelady was not blond. No amount of contrast and highlighting is going to change Lovelady's hair colour to that of blondie.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/

 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I'll bet that the "other girl" was wearing all white, including a white scarf. I'll bet her name was either Karan Hicks or Carol Reed. Because these three had been standing together watching the motorcade. And we see them all in the Z-film inset below. But only two of them in the Darnell frame below.

If you watch the video carefully you can see the Woman in White trying to get Gloria to continue up the stairs with her. She has her by the arm.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'll bet that the "other girl" was wearing all white, including a white scarf. I'll bet her name was either Karan Hicks or Carol Reed. Because these three had been standing together watching the motorcade. And we see them all in the Z-film inset below. But only two of them in the Darnell frame below.

If you watch the video carefully you can see the Woman in White trying to get Gloria to continue up the stairs with her. She has her by the arm.

 

 

 

 

Oh sure in Zapruder noticed (that is IF it is her) and dashed back at such speed to being filmed by Darnell calmly going up the stairs 15/20 seconds after the third shot.

 

30 seconds. Watch the film and you can see how far many had run.

Besides, we have proof. Look through every frame of every film and I guarantee you will find only one Woman in White (i.e. wearing all white). We see her as a spectator in the Z film, and on the TSBD steps in Darnell. That's the proof that she could move that far in the time given.

 

3 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Oh and ehm Lovelady was not blond. No amount of contrast and highlighting is going to change Lovelady's hair colour to that of blondie.

Oh please... Lovelady was bald on top in the front, and it showed so especially in the sun. Below is a 1964 photo of him. If he weren't looking down in the photo we'd see just a thin rim of hair on top and a very high forehead.

You're in denial Bart.

 

 

[Guest]

You are wrong Sandy, this is not looking good at all.

 

30 seconds is a fairy tale.

15, 20 tops.

Why?

Simples

Baker in Hughes

As anyone can see Baker just alongside Cam Car 3 *the car that contained Couch and Darnell) and you also get the see the cars in front of them. Now Baker's capture in Hughes translates to a position on Houston which is not very far from the position he parked his bike. 60/70 ft.

This shot Chris Davidson posted shows this distance really well. Baker was just behind that lamp post on the left and parked his bike roughly just past where the traffic light goes into the ground on the right.

He revved up (so he said), parked his bike And ran towards the area between the TSBD and Dal Tex.  If you add on the fact that the first shot is about to happen or just happened, it's 15 secs from the last shot.

30 seconds is an eternity and baseless.

None of those women stated they ran back!

Based on this above alone your story already is in tatters. No way did these women run back in that short time frame.

Besides Shelley met her across. Molina met her in the lobby, yet seen on top of steps in the pic below. And Vicky Adams saw Molina outside.

 

 

It is time you brush up your photographic analytic skills Sandy.

Your bald patch argument holds no ground whatsoever blondie is never seen looking down to even entertain that fake argument. In the shot above, which I already posted before to point this out, Blondie is looking back to his left.

There is no way Lovelady's hair could bleach out to that extend. Perioo!

Your Calvery skirt holds no water either.

Billy Lovelady is here. Notice how much more contrastier and bleached out this pic looks in comparison to the Darnell image above. Yet his hair is still there.

You and Tommy Graves are terribly wrong. Admit it and move on.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:47 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Ron,

Baker is between the blue chevy convertible's(Hughes film). The lead one is in the background at Z233. 

Plotting the front end of it puts it at 96.25ft down Houston St.

Minus 17.5ft for car length and another trailing 10ft for Baker.

At extant Z233, Baker is 96.25ft - 27.5ft = 68.75 down Houston St.

If first shot was at Z223 = another 10/18.3frames = .546 x 13.47ft per sec = (9.3mph= average speed of motorcade down Houston)= 7.35ft

At z223, Baker is approx 68.75 - 7.35ft = 61.4ft down Houston St.

z313 - z223 = 90zframes = 4.91seconds

4.91 sec x 13.47ft per sec (9.3mph) = 66.13ft

z223= 61.4ft + 66.13ft = 127.5ft down Houston at Z313.

Corner to Corner Houston St = 200ft

CRB Corner to Baker's ultimate parking location if he followed the motorcade path around the Elm St turn = 82ft

So, at z313, Baker must drive 200 - 127.5 = 72.5 + 82 = approx 155ft to park his cycle.

If he maintains the 9.3mph(13.47ft per sec) motorcade speed for his final 155ft, it will take him 11.5seconds to get to his final destination.

Obviously, if he heard a shot earlier than z223, then his distance traveled after z313 would increase.

 

 

 

 

Chris,  your scientific analysis is obviously more accurate than my speculation.  My real point is I don't believe the Warren Omission implied impression that Baker heard shots, jumped off his bike, ran to the TSBD entrance, was caught by Truly there, conversation however brief was made of how to get to the roof, run to the first floor back warehouse elevators (WHY?  Was the front public one to the fourth floor not working, Because the Power was still Off?).  Truly stops to look up the shafts and observe them on the fifth floor (how can he be sure what floor?) After pushing the buttons for them.  They decide to rush up the first floor stairs to the second heading for the roof.  They burst through the second floor stairs door, Truly turned right through the door to the stairs to the fourth floor.  Baker paused, scanned the  floor and to his left through a small door window he saw movement that he couldn't see.  Lee Harvey Oswald was buying or drinking a Coke or moving towards the machine depending on which story you believe Baker related months later.  But not on the night it happened.  But then Truly came Back through the stair door to the third floor, went in the lunchroom door and told Baker he's an employee here.  All in 90 seconds from when Baker heard the second, third, fourth or fifth shot.

I really thought it would have taken Baker at least 30 seconds to get from hearing a shot to when he parked the bike.  11.5 means I'm way off.  Even if you round up to 12.  And include that scientific 3-5 % error margin.  Still say 15 seconds at a time add up.  But I don't buy a second floor coke encounter either way.  The WC reenactment of such is fluff.  It never happened.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/29/2017 at 1:25 AM, Bart Kamp said:

Based on this above alone your story already is in tatters. No way did these women run back in that short time frame.

 

Well of course the women ran back in the allotted time frame. The Zapruder film and Darnell film prove so, and it is extremely simple to see.

The photo below is a frame from the Darnell film, from after the shooting. The inset is a frame from the Zapruder film, from before the shooting.

Focus on the woman wearing ALL white, including a white scarf. We see her standing next to the motorcade in the Z film. We see her standing on the TSBD steps in the Darnell film. THEREFORE we know that she was able to move from her initial position to her final position in the allotted time.

How can there be any question of that??

Oh, and we see the same thing with the woman Tommy and I identified as Gloria Calvery. Again, in both frames wearing the same clothing and scarf.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Who is in denial now Sandy Larsen.........

[Paul Trejo]

On 12/27/2017 at 5:49 PM, Michael Walton said:

One thing that's on my mind about this and Ron Bulman did a nice job of bringing up is - if Baker was way back in the parade, it would have taken him a little bit more time to have arrived where he stopped, dismounted, and run over to go into the building as seen in the film.  Also, Truly seems to be just standing there as Baker runs by him so it's not like Truly suddenly starts galloping behind him.

With Ron's "30 seconds here and 20 seconds there" post above, could more time have elapsed than what the witnesses are stating?  Another thing too is people do misrememeber things.  For example, Truly said that he thought the car slowed down considerably at the corner to avoid the curb but if you watch the Towner and Bell films, both films prove him wrong (I know Chris D will disagree with me but that's on another thread to discuss).

I'm genuinely interested in this and am not agreeing nor disagreeing with anyone here.

Michael,

The thing to do is to read Officer Marrion Baker's WC testimony very carefully, along with Roy Truly's WC testimony -- without prejudice.   Here's how I remember it:

Officer Baker testified that he was at the corner of Main and Houston when the JFK shots rang out.

After the 3rd shot was fired, Baker was certain that the shots came from the ROOF of the TSBD.   He was CERTAIN.

So, he sped his motorcycle to the TSBD, and laid he bike down near the TSBD door.  That didn't take 30 seconds.   That barely took 10 seconds.   Then he ran inside the TSBD demanding the elevator to the ROOF!

Roy Truly saw Officer Baker run in, and so quickly followed him.   Hearing Officer Baker scream for the elevator, Roy Truly introduced himself and offered his humble services.   They tried the elevator, and it was "stuck".   He hollered up, but no reply.  So they hurried to the stairway.   Roy Truly led the way, but once they got to the foot of the stairs, Officer Baker led the way.

It was approximately 1.5 minutes after the final JFK shot before Baker and Truly saw Lee Harvey Oswald near the 2nd floor lunchroom.   No mention was made of any Coke bottle.

But it was 1.5 minutes.   And by the way -- for the sake of argument -- a physical fit 23 year old ex-Marine could easily walk from the 6th floor TSBD south window to the 2nd floor lunch room in 1.5 minutes -- with time to spare.   (I'm not saying that HE DID, I'm only pointing out that HE COULD HAVE.)

There is nothing whatsoever about Marrion Baker's testimony that is implausible.  Baker hurried to the ROOF as fast as he could -- and spent perhaps 5 minutes searching there -- scurrying to check every nook and cranny of the ROOF -- before giving up and conceding his error.

That whole time on the ROOF< Roy Truly tried to convince Marrion Baker that the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.  Roy stared down over the West side of the TSBD ROOF, toward the Grassy Knoll, watching the growing crowd down there, and saying, "See?  I told ya!  I told ya the shots came from over there!" 

But Marrion Baker paid no attention -- because he was afraid that the killer could still be hiding somewhere on the ROOF, and that the ROOF could still be a very dangerous place.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited December 30, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos