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James DiEugenio

When did the Coke Appear?

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7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

...the question is not only whether Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have heard Oswald coming down the stairs, but also whether they could have heard Truly and Baker going up the stairs! So even if they hesitated for a while before descending the stairs, they still should have seen or heard Truly and Baker go up. Which they didn't.

Right. Which means, of course, that the very likely solution to this is:

Styles and Adams were on the stairs AFTER Oswald, Truly, & Baker. (Unless you want to think that Adams & Styles somehow BEAT Baker & Truly to the stairs, which doesn't seem likely.)

It's a pretty simple solution if you ask me---just as I wrote in 2011....

---Quote On:---

"With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.

And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.

The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.

Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.

Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs." -- DVP; February 14, 2011

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17359-new-book-on-victoria-adams-by-author-barry-ernest/?tab=comments#comment-219588

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Here we go again, another trip into Indiana's own sci fi land.

By the man who has become almost as skilled as Max Holland at ignoring the evidence.

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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If Dorothy Garner saw Baker and Truly come out the fourth floor stair door and go into the one heading to the fifth floor would she not have seen Baker stop and call back the man in the brown jacket?  If that happened on the fourth floor.  I think Baker said third or fourth floor.

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He specified either the third or fourth floor.  And believe me the DPD had no interest at all in taking him back there to see which one it was.  They were too busy altering his statement and then shoving him aside.

But the key point about the Garner testimony is that she did not see Oswald come down the stairs.  But she did see Baker and Truly come up.  Which means, to most normal people, that Adams and Styles went down very quickly and would have had to have seen LHO or heard him.

That is the reason Belin suppressed the Stroud document.  And then he did all he could to suborn BS from Shelly and Lovelady to try and discredit Adams.  Which would have been  hard to do if the WC had printed the Stroud document.  But even at that, Syliva Meagher did a very nice job discrediting their testimony in Accessories after the Fact.  She was the first person to point out the discrepancy in their first day affidavits about Adams, and their later evolved testimony. (Meagher pgs. 72-73)  This is why VB went a little nutty in RH in discussing this issue. (Jim DiEugenio, Reclaiming Parkland, pgs 115-20)

But IMO, Sandy L has gone beyond that in his work here. To me its pretty obvious now that what Meagher insinuated, what Barry Ernest implied, now has been proven.  It never surprises me as to the lengths the WC would go to in disposing of every ethical code embedded in the law in relation to  Oswald.  And this was important, since it proved LHO was not on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

...the question is not only whether Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have heard Oswald coming down the stairs, but also whether they could have heard Truly and Baker going up the stairs! So even if they hesitated for a while before descending the stairs, they still should have seen or heard Truly and Baker go up. Which they didn't.

Right. Which means, of course, that the very likely solution to this is:

Styles and Adams were on the stairs AFTER Oswald, Truly, & Baker. (Unless you want to think that Adams & Styles somehow BEAT Baker & Truly to the stairs, which doesn't seem likely.)

 

Read this and weep, DVP:

 

2njy783.jpg

 

So, Dorothy Garner saw Victoria Adams go down the stairs BEFORE she saw Baker and Truly go up!

I don't know the Warren Commission's exact timing, but I do know they have Baker and Truly going up pretty quickly after the shooting.

So yes, I do "want to think that Adams & Styles somehow BEAT Baker & Truly to the stairs," as you put it.
 

(Thanks Jim for the straw that breaks DVP's back. LOL. As I said earlier I hadn't studied the Victoria Adams  material yet. So the Stroud document didn't come to mind. I do believe I saw it before, but at the time I didn't understand its significance.)

 

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So, Adams and Styles went down very quickly, after the public elevator near the front of the building, ending on the fourth floor wouldn't come up or took too long?  I wonder if it might not have taken Baker and Truly a little longer to get there than is generally assumed?  I.E. Baker ran into the building, Truly ran and caught up to him, they immediately ran up to the second floor, across it, stopped to question Oswald, ran straight up 2 more floors, through two set's of doors on three and another on four.  If your running up stairs looking for a possible shooter of the president would you enter the floor looking around carefully, pausing to do so?  

Baker was assigned to what, seven cars behind JFK's limo?  Given the pace of the parade at that point (13 mph?) after the shots then making the hairpin turn from Houston to Elm it would have taken him around a minute to get to the point where he got off the motorcycle.  Didn't he say his bike almost fell over because they were going so slow around the corner?  20 +/- seconds getting off the bike and running up to the TSBD doors?  Getting through the door and people, talking with Truly, maybe others first?  20-30 seconds?  Through the warehouse first floor to the elevators, try them, look up the shaft, run up the stairs to the second floor.  Another 30 seconds or so?  We're getting up to 2 -2 1/2 minutes here, conservatively I think.  The lunch room encounter, another 30 seconds, at least?  Up the stairs to the 3rd floor, through the door on it.  Scan it.  Maybe call back a man walking away in a brown coat and converse with Truly.  Thirty plus.  Open the stairwell door leading to the fourth floor, up them, through that door.  Another 30 seconds, plus...  Dorothy Garner sees them.  Vicki and Sandra had plenty of time to go to the front elevator quickly after the shots,  a minute?  Tired of waiting/figure out the power is off, 30 seconds to a minute?  Across the warehouse to the back stairs and down three flights of them.  One to two minutes?  Uh oh.  That's about four minutes each.  Did the cross paths?  Nope.  Dorothy Garner said so.  Vicki and Sandra went down.  Truly and Baker came up.

Of course much of this is based on questionable testimony in the first place. 

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Sandy Larsen said:

Read this and weep, DVP....

I'm very familiar with "The Stroud Letter", Sandy.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Ron:

I do not know how familiar you are with the latest research that Bart has done on this issue of the alleged second floor lunchroom meeting, but his work has made that whole scenario quite dubious.

But if you go by the reconstructions of the WC as to how long it took for Baker to get to the second floor, it was about 75-90 seconds.  (Harold Weisberg, Selections from Whitewash, p. 56)

If one is defending the official story, then that simply means that Garner, Adams, and Styles were all consistent with each other.  

Edited by James DiEugenio

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43 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I'm very familiar with "The Stroud Letter", Sandy....


But you're not e x p e r i e n c i n g it.  Read it again... slowly.  Savor the words!  :P

 

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WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:

It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.

FWIW, it's my own opinion (based on LHO's clipboard being found very near this same area of the stairs and rifle) that Oswald likely pre-arranged his rifle-stashing area near the stairwell in advance of 12:30 PM.

But even if he didn't pre-arrange it, Walt's theory is just more of the same over-the-top dreck that Walt always utilizes in order to keep from having to admit what the evidence so plainly shows--and that is:

Walt's favorite "patsy" was, in truth, the assassin of President Kennedy -- and Oswald himself hid his own rifle in those boxes before fleeing down the nearby stairway.

Simple and Occam-like. But Walt likes the "Pyramids" approach better.


DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:

"Curt Jester", in his post linked HERE, is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to things that can never be pinned down that accurately.

All of these "timelines" revolving around Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, and also Lee Harvey Oswald can only be estimated to a certain degree, and can never be micro-analyzed right down to the second....and everybody knows it (even "Curt Jester").

If Vickie Adams' timeline, which is discussed during her Warren Commission testimony HERE, is off just a TINY little bit--then Oswald can make it. That's all it takes. And yet a whole book has been written by Barry Ernest that focuses chiefly on a theory that is completely destroyed if Miss Adams is just SLIGHTLY off in her time estimate.

And yet, even though most readers SHOULD realize that Ernest's whole book is based on a TIME ESTIMATE given by a witness, Ernest's book has, amazingly, received glowing reviews from the Amazon readers, averaging 4.4 stars (out of 5 maximum) at Amazon.com (through this writing on May 7, 2013).

It goes to show how eager the public is to disbelieve the Warren Commission, and how eager and willing they are to base their pro-conspiracy thinking on something as flimsy as one witness' estimate of when she started down those Book Depository stairs. Kinda sad, isn't it?


JEAN DAVISON SAID:

I have a question for anyone who accepts Vickie Adams' time line and believes that she came downstairs before Truly & Baker had reached the freight elevator on the 1st floor.

If she's right, how does her story prove that Oswald didn't come down those stairs?

In the WC version, Baker spotted Oswald just after each man had reached the second floor landing. That means that while Truly & Baker were rushing up from the 1st floor to the second, Oswald would've presumably been hurrying from about the 3rd floor to the 2nd. So where were Adams and Styles during that time, according to Adams? Already outside the building!

Can someone explain how her time line prevents Oswald from using those stairs?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It doesn't prevent Oswald from using those same stairs. And that is something I have also pointed out in my posts in the past:

"I'll say this regarding Vickie Adams' timeline....The more I think about this subject, the more I realize that even if Adams DID descend those stairs as quickly as she said she did, that particular scenario really does no harm whatsoever to the "Oswald Did It" conclusion.

Why?

Because...then Adams and Styles very likely BEAT Lee Harvey Oswald to the stairs. Hence, it's likely that Adams & Styles were always AHEAD of Oswald on their descent down the stairs.

And if Adams & Styles were really THAT fast at getting to the first floor, then they could have possibly beaten Baker & Truly too, with B&T only getting on the stairs after A&S had vacated the stairwell."
-- DVP; February 17, 2011


COLIN CROW SAID:

Did Adams and Styles descend before or after Baker and Truly ascended?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Conspiracy theorists are defeated either way.

If Adams and Styles descended BEFORE Baker and Truly started up the stairs, then there's absolutely no reason why Lee Oswald couldn't have used those same stairs without being seen or heard by the two women. Oswald would have simply been a little BEHIND Adams/Styles.

And if Adams/Styles descended AFTER Baker/Truly started up, then the girls were on the stairs AFTER all three men (Baker, Truly, and Oswald) had already used those same stairs.

Why is this so complicated for so many CTers? Regardless of which way the timing falls, there's no reason under the sun to conclude that Oswald couldn't have utilized those very same stairs in the northwest corner of the Book Depository Building and yet not be seen by Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles.

The conspiracy theorists who try and use "timeline" estimates provided by witnesses to positively prove that Oswald couldn't have shot President Kennedy are relying on very flimsy "proof". Especially in light of all of that OTHER stuff that Oswald left behind on the sixth floor that indicates Oswald was, indeed, up there shooting at the President with a Carcano rifle.

Also....

Can any CTer explain how the alleged "real assassin" (or assassins, plural)--i.e., an alleged killer OTHER than Lee Oswald--managed to get downstairs without anyone on ANY Depository floor noticing him/them?

CTers never want to face that question of "HOW DID THE REAL ASSASSINS ELUDE DETECTION?"

As long as Lee Harvey Oswald can somehow be exonerated via the flimsy "timeline" analysis, most CTers are happy. And to hell with the question I just asked above.


TOM SCULLY SAID:

Question for David von Pein [sic]....

Do you think the time observations of the witnesses you have criticized were any less credible than Gladys Johnson claiming she first talked to OH Lee about three weeks before she said she rented a room to him on 14 Oct., and that Lee told her during that first encounter that he wanted to be near his work? What work.

Or the 1:04 time fix of Earline [sic] Roberts who also stated in early December that police had arrived about thirty minutes after Oswald departed. DPD detective Potts established in his testimony that he and other officers arrived at 3:00 pm.

Or that Whaley had any idea who Oswald was or what time near exact that Oswald got in or out of his cab?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No.

You're only helping to emphasize my point about "timelines". Timelines always have to be taken with a grain of salt, including each instance you mentioned above. And the Vickie Adams timeline too.

Marrion Baker's timeline is more accurate because a detailed reconstruction of his movements was done by the Warren Commission.

Now, perhaps such a detailed reconstruction of Victoria Adams' movements should have also been done. Obviously, quite a few CTers think that such an Adams re-creation should have been performed by the Commission. I'll leave it to others to debate whether the Commission was being deliberately deceptive by not doing such a re-creation with Miss Adams.

But as far as I can recall, I have always adhered to the "Grain Of Salt" policy when discussing any "witness timeline" issues. All such times must be considered ESTIMATES. And that includes the time estimates provided by Earlene Roberts and Helen Markham and T.F. Bowley too.
 

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html

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MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:

So, Dorothy Garner, who remained near the stairs on the 4th floor when Adams and Styles went down and who saw Baker and Truly come up, just somehow completely missed Oswald racing down from the 6th floor just moments after Adams and Styles started their descent? Really?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why in the world would anyone think Dorothy Garner had her eyes transfixed on the STAIRS every single second immediately following the President's assassination? How silly would that be, considering what had just happened outside those fourth-floor, SOUTH-SIDE windows just moments earlier?

Why would she (or anyone) have kept a vigil on the staircase?

Therefore, since it makes no logical sense to think that Garner (or ANYBODY ELSE) had their eyes peeled on those stairs every second, Oswald could have easily been on that 4th-floor landing for a matter of--what?--five seconds and not been seen by anyone who was on the same floor.

Or do conspiracy theorists REALLY want to contend that Dorothy Garner never took her eyes off those stairs between 12:30 and 12:32 PM? That's incredibly silly to believe that's the case (even if she DID catch a glimpse of Truly and Baker).
 

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Seems to me that you can spend a lot of time arguing about the "what ifs" and the "why nots", but the bottom line is that you don't have anyone who can place Lee Harvey Oswald at the scene of the crime during the shooting, and you don't have any eyewitnesses seeing him fleeing the scene of the crime.

Who's to say that he didn't simply got tired of waiting for the elevator to come back up and just quietly and calmly walked back down the stairs? Or even crossed the room and walked down the stairs by the front elevator? (Were there stairs by the front elevator that went up to the sixth floor)?

One's as good a conjecture as another. It's all speculation anyway.

 

Steve Thomas

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OMG, Jean Davison?  DVP is getting really desperate. She wrote one of the most agenda driven pieces of propaganda ever composed in the literature. Please.  It was one of the worst researched volumes I have ever read.

Read this to see DVP's heroine, Jean, dismantled piece by piece: https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/davison-jean-oswald-s-game

Everything else he writes above is simply, to quote a certain English playwright, "Sound and fury signifying nothing."

None of it ever explains why, as Syliva Meagher first pointed out, 1.) Shelly and Lovelady changed their stories. or 2.) Why Belin suppressed the Stroud document, or 3.) why Styles, Adams and Garner all corroborate each other.  The truth is that the WC knew Adams was accurate and they knew how deadly her testimony was. That is why they did number one and two.  When you have nothing to hide or suppress, you do not hide and suppress it.  And that continues with DVP to this day. That was a neat piece of surgery he did with Sean Murphy was it not? Hoping that no one would find the complete statement, which Sandy did.

The bottom line is that the work by Sandy L now confirms with photographic evidence what Meagher and Ernest indicated was the case.  Namely that the WC got Lovelady and Shelly to change their testimony.  Which is not only unethical prosecutorial behavior, but can get one disbarred. There is no way to deny that now: Sandy has shown it in black and white. But that is the kind of thing that happens when you have a runaway prosecution that is not hindered by any of the rules of evidence or practice that govern the adversary procedure. Those rules have developed over time to prevent this kind of rogue prosecution from occurring.  

As the redoubtable Bill Davy pointed out at his talk at VMI, It was not until later that Earl Warren expressed his regret for letting LBJ bamboozle him into such a farce.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Common Sense Reprise #1....

"With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase. And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor." -- David Von Pein; February 2011

 

Common Sense Reprise #2....

"What is logical is that, in all the pandemonium, it is unlikely that we would hear shots and head for the back stairs!" -- Sandra Styles

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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