Jump to content
The Education Forum
  • Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
Steve Thomas

Oswald as Locksmith?

Recommended Posts

And in such a strange assortment of exhibits....

So the Soviets put a non-citizen foreigner in the "Experimental" shop - whatever that is... as a locksmith in a Radio factory ???

:blink:

or like this one of a man "Lee Harvey Oswald's height"

CE 1311 - Photograph of assassination window from inside of building showing person of Lee Harvey Oswald's height ..

5a341d13b18aa_HieghtofOswaldestablishedas5foot7.jpg.20a2794c3edca173ad540ae2d319b4a6.jpg

 

5'10" 165 lbs...with 2 inch man-heels  :up

 

img_1317_514_200.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

And in such a strange assortment of exhibits....

So the Soviets put a non-citizen foreigner in the "Experimental" shop - whatever that is... as a locksmith in a Radio factory ???

 

David,

 

It gets weirder.

CE 985 p. 433

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=447&tab=page

is a character reference for LHO. Two times they refer to "Citizen" Oswald. Once as Harvey Lee Oswald, and once as Lee Harvey Oswald.

It says he was hired as a regulator in the experimental shop.

His employee workbook doesn't reflect any promotions or transfers in the time he worked there.

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could any of it have to do with the translations?

Like the order of the name in Russia is different than USA...  
or the word "citizen" being loosely translated...

IDK...  

You think, like the diary, these notes were done in a sitting to provide "documentation" to the Americans... and not over the time of his employment?

Edited by David Josephs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Could any of it have to do with the translations?

Like the order of the name in Russia is different than USA...  
or the word "citizen" being loosely translated...

IDK...  

You think, like the diary, these notes were done in a sitting to provide "documentation" to the Americans... and not over the time of his employment?

David,

 

About the word, "Citizen" being loosely translated,...

I don't think so.

On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated July 15, 1961 that “Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant. The date January 1, 1960 is typed on the Certificate.


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=444&tab=page

 

About the documents being manufactured after the event,...

I don't know, and I don't have any idea how you would go about finding that out.

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Could any of it have to do with the translations?

Like the order of the name in Russia is different than USA...  
or the word "citizen" being loosely translated...

IDK...  

You think, like the diary, these notes were done in a sitting to provide "documentation" to the Americans... and not over the time of his employment?

David,

 

I just checked.

The Russian word for Citizen is    Гражданин

The Russian word for Oswald is   Освальд

 

If you put them together, they are,   Гражданин Освальд

 

If, you go to CE 985 page 434, this is his unsatisfactory job reference.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=448&tab=page

Scroll midway down to the beginning of the first full paragraph and that's what you'll see. Гражданин Освальд

"Citizen" is the correct translation.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My wife is back in Minsk for a month, so I don't have the benefit of her input, but:

The word you are showing as citizen (pronounced graz-da-neen) does mean "citizen" but is also kind of an all-purpose catch-all for any male.  It doesn't necessarily mean "citizen" in the legal sense, any more than a police officer here who shouts "Stop, citizen!" really cares whether you are a citizen.  "Comrade" is a running joke between my wife and I.  She has no idea why all U.S. movies and TV shows put this word in the mouth of pretend-Russians, because there is no Russian word like it and she had never heard it before arriving in the U.S.  The Russian word is товарищ (pronounced tu-var-ish).  Apparently it carries a Bolshevik connotation and is not used as commonly since the fall of the USSR.

I've mentioned previously that my wife's sister worked in the sensitive (military) portion of the Minsk Radio Factory, where my wife visited her on numerous occasions.  My wife couldn't get within 50 yards of the sensitive area, which did military work - she had to telephone her sister from the lobby and wait for her there.  Employees of the sensitive area were not even allowed to leave the USSR on vacations.

The remainder of the facility was a standard radio and TV factory.  "Regulator" was LHO's job classification, but his actual job was as a machinist (lathe operator).  The Russian word for locksmith does appear in the short resignation document, but I'm not sure that is the complete and accurate translation since I can't read the word immediately after locksmith.  This again may be referring to the job classification and may be the same as regulator.

I have a hard time believing LHO would have been allowed anywhere near the sensitive portion of the Minsk Radio Factory.  The following site, which does include some interesting photos and discussion of LHO's work in Minsk (there are two pages), speculates that LHO might have been employed for a brief time in the sensitive area in 1960 to ferret out whether he showed any spy-like tendencies, then shifted to grunt-level work when he didn't show any such tendencies:  http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm

But this does not explain why his 1962 resignation would still be referring to the "experimental shop."  My guess would be that the experimental shop meant the R&D area of the radio and TV portion of the factory, not the sensitive experimental shop described at the above site.  LHO's essay on the factory (quoted at the above site) shows no awareness of the sensitive work, which I find more believable than the notion he would have been allowed into an area that was grimly sensitive. 

Note the two different handwriting, date formats and signatures on the dated portions of the 1962 resignation.  They are very different.  Perhaps "locksmith" was the term used by someone else who was helping LHO draft the resignation.

Edited by Lance Payette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

My wife is back in Minsk for a month, so I don't have the benefit of her input, but:

The word you are showing as citizen (pronounced graz-da-neen) does mean "citizen" but is also kind of an all-purpose catch-all for any male.  It doesn't necessarily mean "citizen" in the legal sense, any more than a police officer here who shouts "Stop, citizen!" really cares whether you are a citizen.  "Comrade" is a running joke between my wife and I.  She has no idea why all U.S. movies and TV shows put this word in the mouth of pretend-Russians, because there is no Russian word like it and she had never heard it before arriving in the U.S.  The Russian word is товарищ (pronounced tu-var-ish).  Apparently it carries a Bolshevik connotation and is not used as commonly since the fall of the USSR.

I've mentioned previously that my wife's sister worked in the sensitive (military) portion of the Minsk Radio Factory, where my wife visited her on numerous occasions.  My wife couldn't get within 50 yards of the sensitive area, which did military work - she had to telephone her sister from the lobby and wait for her there.  Employees of the sensitive area were not even allowed to leave the USSR on vacations.

The remainder of the facility was a standard radio and TV factory.  "Regulator" was LHO's job classification, but his actual job was as a machinist (lathe operator).  The Russian word for locksmith does appear in the short resignation document, but I'm not sure that is the complete and accurate translation since I can't read the word immediately after locksmith.  This again may be referring to the job classification and may be the same as regulator.

I have a hard time believing LHO would have been allowed anywhere near the sensitive portion of the Minsk Radio Factory.  The following site, which does include some interesting photos and discussion of LHO's work in Minsk (there are two pages), speculates that LHO might have been employed for a brief time in the sensitive area in 1960 to ferret out whether he showed any spy-like tendencies, then shifted to grunt-level work when he didn't show any such tendencies:  http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm

But this does not explain why his 1962 resignation would still be referring to the "experimental shop."  My guess would be that the experimental shop meant the R&D area of the radio and TV portion of the factory, not the sensitive experimental shop described at the above site.  LHO's essay on the factory (quoted at the above site) shows no awareness of the sensitive work, which I find more believable than the notion he would have been allowed into an area that was grimly sensitive. 

Note the two different handwriting, date formats and signatures on the dated portions of the 1962 resignation.  They are very different.  Perhaps "locksmith" was the term used by someone else who was helping LHO draft the resignation.

Lance,

 

Thank you for your help. I am struggling with the Russian documents. I just don't know enough.

Would you look at the Certificate on page 430 of CE 985

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&tab=page

are either p. 429 or 431 the Russian version of that Certificate?

 

It's interesting that in earlier versions of the Russian documents, say in early 1960 when he is applying for his first identity cards (around pages 413 and 414), Oswald signs his name in English. By the time of his resignation,  he signs his name in Russian:

(22H) CE 1314 p. 486

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=516&tab=page

 

Would you also look at his application for employment autobiography on page 427?

Would you say that the English version and the Russian version were written by the same hand?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page

 

You talked about the sensitive work done at the factory. I thought at the time when I was reading his "Collective", it was interesting that he said that the factory employed 5,000 people, of which 2,000 were soldiers.

 

Again, thank you for your help.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

The following site, which does include some interesting photos and discussion of LHO's work in Minsk (there are two pages), speculates that LHO might have been employed for a brief time in the sensitive area in 1960 to ferret out whether he showed any spy-like tendencies, then shifted to grunt-level work when he didn't show any such tendencies:  http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm

 

Lance,

 

PS: Thank you for tip on the web site you referenced above.

Like Peter Wronski, I am very suspicious of the six weeks Oswald went "missing" between mid November, 1959 and early January, 1960.

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Lance,

 

Thank you for your help. I am struggling with the Russian documents. I just don't know enough.

Would you look at the Certificate on page 430 of CE 985

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&tab=page

are either p. 429 or 431 the Russian version of that Certificate?

 

It's interesting that in earlier versions of the Russian documents, say in early 1960 when he is applying for his first identity cards (around pages 413 and 414), Oswald signs his name in English. By the time of his resignation,  he signs his name in Russian:

(22H) CE 1314 p. 486

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=516&tab=page

 

Would you also look at his application for employment autobiography on page 427?

Would you say that the English version and the Russian version were written by the same hand?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page

 

You talked about the sensitive work done at the factory. I thought at the time when I was reading his "Collective", it was interesting that he said that the factory employed 5,000 people, of which 2,000 were soldiers.

 

Again, thank you for your help.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

I think 431 is the Russian version of 430, but my knowledge of Russian is about the equivalent of a two-year-old Russian baby's.  I'll ask my wife to take a look at these.  I would have thought LHO would have shifted to signing his name in Russian almost immediately.  My wife and I were talking just before she left as to how names really don't translate very well from Russian characters into English.  Lance becomes Lanz - there is just no way to communicate "Lance."  My wife is having the opposite problem, trying to translate Russian birth and death certificates from the 1800's for an American friend who is doing genealogical research. 

Looking at 427, I would say those are two different hands.  I don't know how grammatically correct the Russian half is, but it certainly looks like someone who is very experienced in writing cursive Russian.  Writing in cursive Russian is no small feat - the cursive letters are completely different from the printed ones.  I can pronounce almost any printed Russian word, but cursive Russian might as well be in Chinese.  If I were going to attempt to "write" in Russian, I would have to print.

On 1314, note how fumbling the upper half is compared to the lower half, as well as to 427; the lower half appears much more fluent (or fluid).  I compared the "m" in the Russian word for my or me that appears in all three documents, and it appears that the Russian writing in 427 might be the same hand as the lower half of 1314.  I suppose Marina might be a good candidate, and the "m"s in her letters on the Wronski site do seem similar (but the writing in 427 appears much more forceful).

I suppose LHO's background with the military would have made him a logical candidate for radio factory work, but it is odd that he would have been sent to a factory 400 miles from Moscow with a highly sensitive area - and some of the sensitive work did involve radar.  If they really thought he was the nuisance they claimed, they could have sent him to a potato farm or grocery store. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I think 431 is the Russian version of 430, but my knowledge of Russian is about the equivalent of a two-year-old Russian baby's.  I'll ask my wife to take a look at these.  I would have thought LHO would have shifted to signing his name in Russian almost immediately.  My wife and I were talking just before she left as to how names really don't translate very well from Russian characters into English.  Lance becomes Lanz - there is just no way to communicate "Lance."  My wife is having the opposite problem, trying to translate Russian birth and death certificates from the 1800's for an American friend who is doing genealogical research. 

Looking at 427, I would say those are two different hands.  I don't know how grammatically correct the Russian half is, but it certainly looks like someone who is very experienced in writing cursive Russian.  Writing in cursive Russian is no small feat - the cursive letters are completely different from the printed ones.  I can pronounce almost any printed Russian word, but cursive Russian might as well be in Chinese.  If I were going to attempt to "write" in Russian, I would have to print.

On 1314, note how fumbling the upper half is compared to the lower half, as well as to 427; the lower half appears much more fluent (or fluid).  I compared the "m" in the Russian word for my or me that appears in all three documents, and it appears that the Russian writing in 427 might be the same hand as the lower half of 1314.  I suppose Marina might be a good candidate, and the "m"s in her letters on the Wronski site do seem similar (but the writing in 427 appears much more forceful).

I suppose LHO's background with the military would have made him a logical candidate for radio factory work, but it is odd that he would have been sent to a factory 400 miles from Moscow with a highly sensitive area - and some of the sensitive work did involve radar.  If they really thought he was the nuisance they claimed, they could have sent him to a potato farm or grocery store. 

Lanz,  *smile*,

 

Thank you.  I'm getting a little better with the cursive, but if the writing is a little sloppy, fugedda bout it. *smile*.

Birth and death certificates from the 1800's huh? That's impressive.

 

I agree with you that the Russian writing looks more "experienced", or "fluid". The application for employment on p. 427 was supposedly done in January. I don't think he met Marina until April was it?

 

I was struck yesterday about the similarity of Oswald disappearing for two weeks in 1962 (between October 19th and November 2nd) and then going to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis; and then him disappearing between November 15, 1959 and January 4, 1960, only to go to work at a sensitive radio factory.

Didn't a U-2 plane get shot down on both occasions?

 

Potato farm... *smile*

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Lanz,  *smile*,

 

Thank you.  I'm getting a little better with the cursive, but if the writing is a little sloppy, fugedda bout it. *smile*.

Birth and death certificates from the 1800's huh? That's impressive.

 

I agree with you that the Russian writing looks more "experienced", or "fluid". The application for employment on p. 427 was supposedly done in January. I don't think he met Marina until April was it?

 

I was struck yesterday about the similarity of Oswald disappearing for two weeks in 1962 (between October 19th and November 2nd) and then going to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis; and then him disappearing between November 15, 1959 and January 4, 1960, only to go to work at a sensitive radio factory.

Didn't a U-2 plane get shot down on both occasions?

 

Potato farm... *smile*

 

Steve Thomas

The problem is that every single letter in a Russian word is pronounced.  This makes it easy for someone like me to make a reasonable stab at pronouncing a lengthy Russian word even if I have no idea what it means.  But when you give them a name like "Lance," they feel compelled to do something with the "e" and thus call you Lancy.  So you preserve your sanity by telling them your name is Lans or Lanz or perhaps Fred.  Now that I think about it, Lee Harvey Oswald would be less of a problem because every letter is pronounced.

As much as I poke fun at H&L, I do think that nailing down everything we possibly can about LHO should be the foundation of assassination research.  The who, what, where and when of LHO is the key to any theory, from Lone Nut to the most elaborate conspiracy.  It is sort of incredible that a guy with his childhood who died at 24 could have been and remain such an enigma, with aspects to his life and psychology pointing in so many different directions that he can easily become whomever your pet assassination theory requires him to be.

Like Walt Brown (whose massive Chronology steered me to Armstrong in the first place), I admire the vast amount of work Armstrong has done and would like to see it revisited by a team without the H&L bias.  If I were the Director of Assassination Research, I'd assemble a team of scholars and historians with no particular interest in the assassination, no pet theories and no books to sell to focus solely on investigating the who, what, where and when of LHO and presenting the most accurate picture possible, free of any theory-driven need to make him fit a particular mode.

Concerning the writing, I mentioned on another thread that my wife found the Russian in the "Walker note" to be laugh-out-loud bad.  "No way did anyone fluent in Russian write that!" she assured me.  But then when she looked at some things LHO had supposedly written in Minsk, she said "Not too bad ... not perfect, but pretty good."  Hmmm ... there is definitely a mystery to all this.

P.S. - For what it's worth, I have asked my wife to take a look at No. 1314 regarding the translation of "locksmith" and to ask her sister how she would explain LHO being in the "Experimental Shop" in 1962.

Edited by Lance Payette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

 

As much as I poke fun at H&L, I do think that nailing down everything we possibly can about LHO should be the foundation of assassination research. 

Concerning the writing, I mentioned on another thread that my wife found the Russian in the "Walker note" to be laugh-out-loud bad.  "No way did anyone fluent in Russian write that!" she assured me.  But then when she looked at some things LHO had supposedly written in Minsk, she said "Not too bad ... not perfect, but pretty good."  Hmmm ... there is definitely a mystery to all this.

P.S. - For what it's worth, I have asked my wife to take a look at No. 1314 regarding the translation of "locksmith" and to ask her sister how she would explain LHO being in the "Experimental Shop" in 1962.

Lance,

 

I once read a long time ago, (I don't remember who) who said, "If Oswald truly was a patsy, any time spent on him is a waste of time".

I don't know what the answer is. *shrug*

I think I can be confident in saying that the CIA waiting a year to open a 201 file on Oswald is a bunch of malarky. They may not have had a 201 file, but they had some kind of file.

I wondered about the dating on Oswald's resignation letter (CE 1314) compared to the dating on the back of the back yard photo (DeMohrenschildt's copy?).

Let me know what your wife says about "Locksmith" and your sister-in-law says about the shop. I'm interested.

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 11:22 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Lance,

 

I once read a long time ago, (I don't remember who) who said, "If Oswald truly was a patsy, any time spent on him is a waste of time".

I don't know what the answer is. *shrug*

I think I can be confident in saying that the CIA waiting a year to open a 201 file on Oswald is a bunch of malarky. They may not have had a 201 file, but they had some kind of file.

I wondered about the dating on Oswald's resignation letter (CE 1314) compared to the dating on the back of the back yard photo (DeMohrenschildt's copy?).

Let me know what your wife says about "Locksmith" and your sister-in-law says about the shop. I'm interested.

 

Steve Thomas

FWIW, my wife and her sister said that "maintenance mechanic" would be a better translation than "locksmith" (not that LHO was what I typically think of as a maintenance mechanic either, but there you go).  The sister said that "experimental shop" would actually be the "pilot shop" and that this was the machine shop that made parts and tools for the factory, as opposed to working on the actual production of TVs and radios.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

FWIW, my wife and her sister said that "maintenance mechanic" would be a better translation than "locksmith" (not that LHO was what I typically think of as a maintenance mechanic either, but there you go).  The sister said that "experimental shop" would actually be the "pilot shop" and that this was the machine shop that made parts and tools for the factory, as opposed to working on the actual production of TVs and radios.

Lance,

 

Thank you, and your wife and sister-in-law.

 

That translation makes a whole lot more sense.

Making the parts and tools for the machines sounds about right too, because he talks about reading blueprints in his Collective. I wondered about that at the time.

"Work here is given out in the form of blueprints and drawings by the foreman Zemof and Jr. foreman Lavcook..."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thecollective.htm

 

Thanks again.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×