Jump to content
The Education Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Chris Bristow

ALTGENS 6/THE BULLET HOLE/ PLOTTING IT'S PATH

Recommended Posts

I decided to plot the trajectory of the supposed bullet hole in the windshield in Altgens 6. I would think if it is not a bullet hole the trajectory would likely point to some implausible location for a sniper. it might point up in the air or into the ground, or somewhere on the lawn that was photographed and shows no shooter. I  heard it had been calculated to originate from the commerce St underpass but I wanted to use multiple photographs of JFK to see just how accurately it can be plotted. plotting the vertical and horizontal angles I found it leads to the top of the hill in the South corner of the plaza next to the parking lot and about 20 ft East of the railroad tracks. There are two interesting things about that location. First it allows for an almost level shot if the shooter is crouched or prone at the top of that hill. Secondly the shot occurred at the point when  the limo came the closest to pointing directly at the sniper location, about 16 degrees from driving straight at the sniper. 
  When first plotting it out I included the 4 degree slope of the plaza. using 4 degrees the shot could have come from the Commerce tunnel. But then I measured the angle of the limo at the location of the throat shot and although it does not look like a 46 degree angle ,it turned out the limo was moving across the 4 degree slope at a 46 degree angle. Just like a skier that goes straight down a hill is at a steeper angle than someone going across the slope, the limos angle was only 2 degrees from front to back. the other 2 degrees would manifest as the limo leaning 2 degrees from side to side but the grade of the road corrects that. (if the limo was on Main street and sideways in the road, it would have a 4 degree lean side to side while from from to back to front it would have zero angle. So applying a 2 degree lean from front to back moves the shooter location to the top of the hill. The location of JFK's throat was hard to pin down so I gave it a 5 inch box in which it could be positioned. that allows for 4 degrees of variance. Each degree translates to about one and a quarter inches per degree at JFK's neck and 14 feet at the sniper location. The Commerce tunnel is at the edge of that box but the top of the hill seems like a better location as it has a quick exit through the parking lot behind it, a level shot, and minimal tracking of the target as it is movings towards the sniper at the moment of the neck shot. 
 But there is one thing about the windshield theory that  is a problem. it is hard to find a position for Connelly and JfK where the bullet does not pass through Connelly's head. if the shot did happen through the windshield it would have comes very close to JC's head. He never said he felt a round pass by is head which is strange. 
 There is always debate about JC's reactions and whether it indicates he was struck by the same bullet as JFK. But if he reacted to a shot passing right by his head, how could we separate that reaction from his being hit by a round. Besides JC's lapel flipping up and down there is no movement that could not be attributed to the bullet passing by his head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

That's interesting, what is the proof? By the way I am not agruing for it being real or unreal in this thread. I am open to either.

Wouldn't Occam's razor suggest that the limousine windshield witnesses simply saw a black fragment of lead in a shallow crack on the windshield, which created the illusion of a circular through-and-through hole? Or even under certain lighting conditions that could make a little shadow crescenting over the crack look like a through-and-through hole? The windshield could've totally looked like it had a hole without a hole actually being there. 

Edited by Micah Mileto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I decided to plot the trajectory of the supposed bullet hole in the windshield in Altgens 6. I would think if it is not a bullet hole the trajectory would likely point to some implausible location for a sniper. it might point up in the air or into the ground, or somewhere on the lawn that was photographed and shows no shooter. I  heard it had been calculated to originate from the commerce St underpass but I wanted to use multiple photographs of JFK to see just how accurately it can be plotted. plotting the vertical and horizontal angles I found it leads to the top of the hill in the South corner of the plaza next to the parking lot and about 20 ft East of the railroad tracks. There are two interesting things about that location. First it allows for an almost level shot if the shooter is crouched or prone at the top of that hill. Secondly the shot occurred at the point when  the limo came the closest to pointing directly at the sniper location, about 16 degrees from driving straight at the sniper. 
  When first plotting it out I included the 4 degree slope of the plaza. using 4 degrees the shot could have come from the Commerce tunnel. But then I measured the angle of the limo at the location of the throat shot and although it does not look like a 46 degree angle ,it turned out the limo was moving across the 4 degree slope at a 46 degree angle. Just like a skier that goes straight down a hill is at a steeper angle than someone going across the slope, the limos angle was only 2 degrees from front to back. the other 2 degrees would manifest as the limo leaning 2 degrees from side to side but the grade of the road corrects that. (if the limo was on Main street and sideways in the road, it would have a 4 degree lean side to side while from from to back to front it would have zero angle. So applying a 2 degree lean from front to back moves the shooter location to the top of the hill. The location of JFK's throat was hard to pin down so I gave it a 5 inch box in which it could be positioned. that allows for 4 degrees of variance. Each degree translates to about one and a quarter inches per degree at JFK's neck and 14 feet at the sniper location. The Commerce tunnel is at the edge of that box but the top of the hill seems like a better location as it has a quick exit through the parking lot behind it, a level shot, and minimal tracking of the target as it is movings towards the sniper at the moment of the neck shot. 
 But there is one thing about the windshield theory that  is a problem. it is hard to find a position for Connelly and JfK where the bullet does not pass through Connelly's head. if the shot did happen through the windshield it would have comes very close to JC's head. He never said he felt a round pass by is head which is strange. 
 There is always debate about JC's reactions and whether it indicates he was struck by the same bullet as JFK. But if he reacted to a shot passing right by his head, how could we separate that reaction from his being hit by a round. Besides JC's lapel flipping up and down there is no movement that could not be attributed to the bullet passing by his head.

Chris,

Something like this:

BTW, that is not my description.39170300721_41bb84c478_b.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Micah Mileto said:

Wouldn't Occam's razor suggest that the limousine windshield witnesses simply saw a black fragment of lead in a shallow crack on the windshield, which created the illusion of a circular through-and-through hole? Or even under certain lighting conditions that could make a little shadow crescenting over the crack look like a through-and-through hole? The windshield could've totally looked like it had a hole without a hole actually being there. 

Well there are witness' that stood right in front of the limo at parkland and saw a :"through and through hole". A medical student(And gun advocate) and one of the motor cops, Lumpkin or Ellis. Then there is separate testimony from a windshield dept supervisor at Ford Motor Co Detroit who saw the limo there Monday morning with a 'through and through' hole before they destroyed that windshield and installed a new one. So I lean towards the hole being real. 
 If we apply Occams razor but consider the fact that bullets were being fired at the limo would that mean a through an through hole would be logical? i don't know really but it is all speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Chris,

Something like this:

BTW, that is not my description.39170300721_41bb84c478_b.jpg

 

Chris, well that is a re creation. Some of the Love field and parade footage towards Dealey shows JFK hanging onto the door, way to the right. When you translate to an overhead using Alt 6 for the bullet hole it hits JC in the head. Of course he is behind the sign at that point so there is wiggle room but not much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting, Chris. Take a look at Sherry Fiester's work in her book, "Enemy of the Truth." Sherry was a certified crime scene investigator and law enforcement instructor for 30 years. She was recognized as an expert on such matters in a court of law. Her analysis also puts a shooter on the south knoll. I believe her contention is that it was the origin of the fatal head shot. I don't believe that would have went through the windshield though.

Regarding whether or not there was a hole in the windshield, there were several people who had a good look at it and described it as a hole. Going from memory here, but I seem to recall one of them even describing the edges of the hole as smooth on the outside of the windshield and chipped on the inside, indicating a shot from the front:

o    Stavis Ellis, DPD

o    HR Freeman, DPD

o    Dr Evalea Glanges

o    Charles Taylor Jr, Secret Service

o    Richard Dudman, St Louis Dispatch

o    Frank Cormier, St Louis Dispatch

o    George Whitaker, Ford

o    NIck Prencipe, US Parks Police

Edited by Greg Wagner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I decided to plot the trajectory of the supposed bullet hole in the windshield in Altgens 6. I would think if it is not a bullet hole the trajectory would likely point to some implausible location for a sniper. it might point up in the air or into the ground, or somewhere on the lawn that was photographed and shows no shooter. I  heard it had been calculated to originate from the commerce St underpass but I wanted to use multiple photographs of JFK to see just how accurately it can be plotted. plotting the vertical and horizontal angles I found it leads to the top of the hill in the South corner of the plaza next to the parking lot and about 20 ft East of the railroad tracks. There are two interesting things about that location. First it allows for an almost level shot if the shooter is crouched or prone at the top of that hill. Secondly the shot occurred at the point when  the limo came the closest to pointing directly at the sniper location, about 16 degrees from driving straight at the sniper. 
  When first plotting it out I included the 4 degree slope of the plaza. using 4 degrees the shot could have come from the Commerce tunnel. But then I measured the angle of the limo at the location of the throat shot and although it does not look like a 46 degree angle ,it turned out the limo was moving across the 4 degree slope at a 46 degree angle. Just like a skier that goes straight down a hill is at a steeper angle than someone going across the slope, the limos angle was only 2 degrees from front to back. the other 2 degrees would manifest as the limo leaning 2 degrees from side to side but the grade of the road corrects that. (if the limo was on Main street and sideways in the road, it would have a 4 degree lean side to side while from from to back to front it would have zero angle. So applying a 2 degree lean from front to back moves the shooter location to the top of the hill. The location of JFK's throat was hard to pin down so I gave it a 5 inch box in which it could be positioned. that allows for 4 degrees of variance. Each degree translates to about one and a quarter inches per degree at JFK's neck and 14 feet at the sniper location. The Commerce tunnel is at the edge of that box but the top of the hill seems like a better location as it has a quick exit through the parking lot behind it, a level shot, and minimal tracking of the target as it is movings towards the sniper at the moment of the neck shot. 
 But there is one thing about the windshield theory that  is a problem. it is hard to find a position for Connelly and JfK where the bullet does not pass through Connelly's head. if the shot did happen through the windshield it would have comes very close to JC's head. He never said he felt a round pass by is head which is strange. 
 There is always debate about JC's reactions and whether it indicates he was struck by the same bullet as JFK. But if he reacted to a shot passing right by his head, how could we separate that reaction from his being hit by a round. Besides JC's lapel flipping up and down there is no movement that could not be attributed to the bullet passing by his head.

Each time I go to DP, I try to figure out the angle you describe here, the nearly flat trajectory of a bullet going through the windshield and hitting JFK in the throat.  I think your analysis makes the most sense; there is no angle that works for the throat shot from the grassy knoll / picket fence area.  It seems to me that the shooter had to be lower to the ground than elevated on the overpass.  

For what it's worth, I believe this is the second shot that kit JFK - he was hit in the back and said "My God, I've been hit!".  There would have been no way to say anything after he was shot in the throat.  This is also more evidence against the SBT.  If he was hit in the back (or "neck" as Gerald Ford changed it to in the WCR), and that same bullet exited through his throat, how could he say anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

hqdefault.jpg

That white spot near the windshield that appears to be overlapping Kennedy's left shoulder pad is just Jackie's glove.

 

kyRjRHy.jpg

Micah, Jackies left hand is holding JFK's forearm from underneath. if her right hand was at JFK's shoulder it would have to cover the right hand hold on the right rear of the limo. or it would have to obscure part of JFK's coat. But we can see the hand hold and his coat. there is no place for her arm to reaching up to the anomaly in the windshield.   But am am not trying to prove the bullet hole is real! i am only testing the theory by tracing the possible trajectory. Had i found the trajectory led up into the air i might be willing to argue that the hole is not real. that would be based on the fact there was no blimp in the plaza that day so no platform for a shooter in the air. i am sort of kidding but my point is i am not here to debate whether the hole is real or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×