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Steve Thomas

picnic at White Rock Lake

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I don't know why, but this picnic has always fascinated me.

Part of it goes to the question of whether Veciana could have seen LHO in Dallas in September if he was supposed to be in New Orleans.

Part of it goes to the Sylvia Odio story of meeting LHO in the hallway of her apartment house.

Part of it goes to whether or not LHO addressed a group of Cubans.

Part of it goes to SNFE/Alpha 66 and DRE recruiting efforts in Dallas in September.

Part of it may address Hall and Seymour running guns through Dallas.

Part of it may address the Whitter/Lawrence theft of guns from the Terrell National Guard Armory.

Part of it may address Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro/George Perrel attempts to buy guns from John Thomas Masen.

Part of it may address Nancy Perrin Rich and her testimony.

There just seemed to be a lot of Cuban exile activity in Dallas in the fall of 1963.

 

These are excerpts of an interview of Harold Weisberg with Colonel and Mrs. Robert Castorr.

Has anyone ever seen the film that these stills were taken from, or the pictures Weisberg showed to the Castorrs?

 

Mr, C: And let's not forget that he was at the White Rock picnic amongst the Cubans and ostensibly wasn't Oswald suppose to have been there at the picnic?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Castorr%20L%20Robert%20Colonel/Item%2023.pdf page 14.

 

W: Do you remember when that picnic was?

Mrs. C: Well, it was about mid-September of '63.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Castorr%20L%20Robert%20Colonel/Item%2023.pdf page 5.

 

Mr. C: Well I understand that Oswald was at the White Rock picnic with these Cubans. Wasn't there a picture that came out that somebody took that's somewhere in the files..

W: May I ask if that could have been a man who looked like Oswald? Mr. C: It could be... W: I think that's more likely.

 

Mr. C: I'm getting back to my belief and thinking that Father McCann was also there...

Mrs. C: He was invited to that picnic. That was mid-September of '63 and Bob was out of the country.

 

So this would put these men -- Paul and presumably Howard -- in Dallas at approximately that time in Sept. with another man whom they introduced to her as Leon Oswald. So you see, when we're talking about a man at the picnic who was thought to have been Oswald, it was quite consistent with Sylvia Odio's story because when she was shown the pictures of Oswald, although if you read her testimony carefully, she points out certain dissimilarities between the man she saw and the man, Oswald, in the pictures. Nonetheless it's consistent with Oswald and on balance, she said it looked like him.

 

W: You may not, but that's all right. What we have here are pictures collected of people we don't know too much about. These are some stills taken from the television films taken of the in White Rock Park. in the summer July 1963 I believe.

ITS Mrs. C: September, I believe.

Mr. W: Was that it._

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Castorr%20L%20Robert%20Colonel/Item%2012.pdf page 1.

 

Mrs. C: Now, I was not at that meeting. So far as this picnic was concerned, you see, I was going around to some of these people bringing food, bringing clothing and what have you, and I did not speak nor understand Spanish unfortunately, but I heard that there was going to be a picnic at White Rock Lake and the man by the name of Rodriquez was selling the tickets. And some reference was made to the fact that in some group of Cubans, someone said are you going to that picnic. "Well, no, the right people aren't going to be there"and I was never invited to that picnic so..

W: They were more or less the left wing group.

Mrs. C: Yes, now after the picnic was over, I heard from some source and I couldn't tell you where that they raised $7,000 at that picnic and that there were people there from Puerto Rico and from Venezuela who attended that picnic. pp. 6-7

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20215/215e.pdf

p. 187

25H371, CE 2390 and CD 1546 p. 188.

 

FBI interview of Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho by SA Wallace Heitman on September 8, 1964.

Othon was the DRE delegate in Dallas after Sarah Castillo. Othon told Heitman that Manuel Salvat had come to Dallas from Miami in September or October, 1963 and that a meeting of about thirty or forty Cubans and Americans had been held at a bank near White Rock Lake. The meeting had been organized by Mr. Dean Perkins, who was sympathetic to the Cuban cause.

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve,

This is important information. I'm surprised there no comments. The Castorrs are under researched for sure. They socialized with Gen Walker, H.L Hunt and Robert Morris. They knew Lt George Butler, whom the HSCA suspected let Jack Ruby into the police station.

 

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10 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Steve,

This is important information. I'm surprised there no comments.

 

David,

 

Thank you. I think it is.

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20215/215e.pdf

p. 187

25H371, CE 2390 and CD 1546 p. 188.

 

FBI interview of Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho by SA Wallace Heitman on September 8, 1964.

Othon was the DRE delegate in Dallas after Sarah Castillo. Othon told Heitman that Manuel Salvat had come to Dallas from Miami in September or October, 1963 and that a meeting of about thirty or forty Cubans and Americans had been held at a bank near White Rock Lake. The meeting had been organized by Mr. Dean Perkins, who was sympathetic to the Cuban cause.

 

Othon said that he was known as Bill Othon in Dallas among Americans. He said he was employed by Forrest and Cotton Engineers, Mercantile Continental Building, Dallas.

 

Is George Parrel Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho, or Fermin De Goicochea?

 

 

CD 1085

In June, 1963 Andrés Nazario Sargén wrote Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro a letter and urged him to establish a chapter of Alpha 66 in Dallas. Orcarberro moved to Dallas in September, 1963.


 

On May 25, 1964, Manuel Rodriguez voluntarily appeared at the Dallas FBI offices and spoke to Wallace Heitman. He told Heitman that the members of SNFE met at bi-weekly meetings at 3126 Harlandale. (Although in his Report, Heitman spelled it Hollandale.)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=222

 

On November 23 and 26, 1963 Buddy Walthers writes a Supplementary Investigation Report addressed to Bill Decker. A group of Cubans have been having meetings at 3126 Harlendale St. “on the weekends over the past few months”. “Subject Oswald has been to this house before”.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0276b.htm


 

Commission Document 946 - SS Aragon Report of 5 May 1964 re: Sylvia Odio, Rogelio Cisneros Diaz page 3

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11342&search=%22Juan_Martin%22#relPageId=4&tab=page

 

On May 4, 1964 in an interview in his home with SS Agent Ernest I. Aragon, Cisneros told Aragon that:

 

Rogelio Cisneros, a JURE member in Miami, went to Dallas alone, by plane in June, 1963 for the specific purpose of meeting Sylvia Odio who was supposed to introduce Cisneros to a Uruguayan named Juan Martin, who was interested in selling small arms to JURE.

 

The JURE office in Dallas was already in operation, having been established in May, 1963. He only contacted Sylvia Odio once. Cisneros was accompanied by Jorge Rodriguez (Alvarada) (Alvereda?), their Dallas delegate, and no one else.

 

TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO

The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odio.htm

 

Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.
That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.

 

On April 24, 1964 SS Chief Rowley wrote a Memorandum to J. Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission. This memo is CD 853
http://www.maryferre...amp;relPageId=2

This memo was in response to a letter from Rankin to Rowley dated April 22, 1964. The topic was Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro and the Cuban exile community. Some of the things in Rowley’s memo were:

1/16/64 Frank Ellsworth was interviewed about Orcarberro.
Ellsworth had been working undercover gathering evidence against John Thomas Masen.
Masen told Ellsworth that Orcarberro had been trying to buy guns and bazookas from Masen.

Masen told Ellsworth that Rodriguez and George F. Parrel were leaders of the local DRE and also members of Alpha-66
Masen told Ellsworth that George Parrel, an associate of Orcarberro, had also been trying to buy guns from him.
They had made purchases from him and that they presently have a large cache of arms located somewhere in Dallas, although he did not know the location.

Parrel was a student at Dallas City College.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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On 12/24/2017 at 3:12 AM, Steve Thomas said:

 

CD 1085

In June, 1963 Andrés Nazario Sargén wrote Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro a letter and urged him to establish a chapter of Alpha 66 in Dallas. Orcarberro moved to Dallas in September, 1963.


 

On May 25, 1964, Manuel Rodriguez voluntarily appeared at the Dallas FBI offices and spoke to Wallace Heitman. He told Heitman that the members of SNFE met at bi-weekly meetings at 3126 Harlandale. (Although in his Report, Heitman spelled it Hollandale.)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=222&tab=page

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=219&tab=page

Heitman had previously interviewed Orcarberro on February 10, 1964 and May 10, 1964.

Informant T-1 had told Heitman that Orcarberro had lived at 5310 Columbia in Dallas.

According to Heitman, Rodririguez said he registered as an alien of Dallas, TX on September 6, 1963, at which time his address was reflected as 1208 Hudspeth St. His last prior address was listed as 5310 Columbia St., Dallas.

 

CE 2390 (25H370)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=400&tab=page

 

FBI Agent Wallace Heitman interview of Osvaldo Aurelio Pino Pino July 8, 1964

Resides at 719 N. Bishop St. in Dallas and is employed at El Chico Restaurant warehouse. Pino state that he is a member of SNFE. “He said that he remembers that a general reunion of various Cuban refugees had been held several months ago at a picnic grounds near White Rock Lake, and that a woman by the name of Odio had made a short speech at the reunion.”

 

This may be Annie Odio and not Sylvia.

WC testimony of Sylvia Odio:

http://jfkassassinat...timony/odio.htm

Sylvia Odio, July 22, 1964…. we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke… she (Lucille Connell) went to that meeting. I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get upset about it…. He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.

 

REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE

NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726&relPageId=2

On pages 4 through 5 of that Report, Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro furnished a list of the present officers of SNFE. Among the list of Officers is Osvaldo Pino Pino.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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On 12/20/2017 at 11:47 AM, Steve Thomas said:

 

W: Do you remember when that picnic was?

Mrs. C: Well, it was about mid-September of '63.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Castorr%20L%20Robert%20Colonel/Item%2023.pdf page 5.

 

Mr. C: I'm getting back to my belief and thinking that Father McCann was also there...

Mrs. C: He was invited to that picnic. That was mid-September of '63 and Bob was out of the country.

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Castorr%20L%20Robert%20Colonel/Item%2012.pdf page 1.

 

Mrs. C: Now, I was not at that meeting. So far as this picnic was concerned, you see, I was going around to some of these people bringing food, bringing clothing and what have you, and I did not speak nor understand Spanish unfortunately, but I heard that there was going to be a picnic at White Rock Lake and the man by the name of Rodriquez was selling the tickets.

This just keeps getting better.

 

On May 4, 1964 in an interview in his home with SS Agent Ernest I. Aragon, Rogelio Cisneros told Aragon in Miami that he had gone to Dallas, by plane, alone to meet Sylvia Odio, whom he had never met before, in June, 1963, for the specific purpose of meeting Sylvia Odio who was supposed to introduce Cisneros to a Uruguayan named Juan Martin, who was interested in selling small arms to JURE.

He wanted to buy guns, and Martin wanted to sell them. Odio was going to serve as the middleman (middlewoman?).

Odio had moved to Dallas in March.

 

Cisneros had a second purpose in going to Dallas however. When he went to Sylvia's house, he was accompanied by Jorge Rodriguz Alvaredo.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20215/215e.pdf page 183 of Heitman's report, p. 16 of the pdf file.

On September 4, 1964 Jorge Rodriguez Alvareda told Wallace Heitman that Rogelio Cisneros Diaz had come to Dallas in late May, or early June, 1963 for the purpose of organizing the Dallas Branch of JURE.

 

On May 28, 1964 a Report out of Dallas is drafted on various Cuban groups.

REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726#relPageId=2&tab=page


Jorge Rodriguez Alvareda advised that the Dallas Chapter of JURE was established in late June and early July, 1963. Rodriguez Alvareda said that he was employed at the Curtis-Mathes plant and that he had been authorized on July 3, 1963 in a letter from Osorio Davila Santana, Secretary General of JURE in Miami to proceed with the organization of JURE unit in Dallas.

Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro was also employed at the Curtis-Mathes plant.

 

Father Walter J. McHann (Mary Ferrell's database spells it Machann)

CE 2943 p. 402.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=438&tab=page

 

Letter from James Rowley of the Secret Service to J. Lee Rankin dated May 5, 1964. McHann interviewed by SS Inspector Kelly on April 30, 1964.

McHann was chaplain to the Cuban Catholic Committee of Dallas. They organized religious and social activities for the Cuban refugees to help them adjust. Did they organize the picnic?

McHann said he had been introduced to John Martin aka Juan Martin; and that one night, John Martin came to Sylvia's while he was there. McHann described John Martin as a Latin, but not a Cuban. Martin had a house in Dallas, but did not live there. He lived in a different city with his family. Sylvia seemed to know John Martin quite well.

 

Sylvia Odio moves to Dallas in March

Cisneros flies from Miami to Dallas in June to set up a gun buying deal with Johnny Martin using Sylvia as the middlewoman and to organize a JURE Chapter in Dallas with Jorge Rodriguez Alvaredo as its President.

Father McHann at some point is introduced to Johnny Martin at Syvlia's home.

Two months later, in September, a picnic is organized at White Rock Lake. Oswald is maybe seen there, and maybe not.

Did the Catholic Cuban Relief Committee, who arranged social activities for the Cubans, organize the picnic?

Was Father McHann there?

Was the Rodriguez who was selling tickets, Jorge Rodriguez, the President of the JURE Dallas Chapter?

That same month three men come to Sylvia's door claiming to be from JURE. She thinks Oswald was one of the three.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

 

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Steve,

Some questions:

Who was Dean Perkins? He was on stage with John Martino Oct 1 in Dallas.

Who was the very attractive female from Miami, supposedly representing DRE, that was in the company of Hall and Howard?

Ed Twilly?

Was Forray Kiki Ferrer? Weisberg seemed to note this in the margin.  Mrs. Castorr -"Yes. A man by the name of Forray. You see, subsequently, Joanna Rodgers told me that she and her husband were on a cruise and they met this Mr. Forray and he asked if Joanna would do him a personal favor and that was to look after this girl -- Sylvia (Odio)."

Weisberg's theory page 29 -

W: The rest of the Moran (Loran) Hall story is (what they told Sylvia Odeo) was that they were going to get this man, Oswald, into Cuba to knock Castro off. I don't believe that but what I do believe (you'd never hire Oswald to kill anybody or you'd never trust him to do it on his own--he wasn't mechanically capable of pulling it off) what could have happened, though, would have been a competent man who looked like Oswald could have used Oswald's papers and it's my belief that when Oswald failed to get the visa, he lost all utility and could serve no purpose to the people he was associated with and I think this is why they framed him.

 

 

 

Edited by David Boylan

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2 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Steve,

Some questions:

Who was Dean Perkins? He was on stage with John Martino Oct 1 in Dallas.

Who was the very attractive female from Miami, supposedly representing DRE, that was in the company of Hall and Howard?

Ed Twilly?

Was Forray Kiki Ferrer? Weisberg seemed to note this in the margin.  Mrs. Castorr -"Yes. A man by the name of Forray. You see, subsequently, Joanna Rodgers told me that she and her husband were on a cruise and they met this Mr. Forray and he asked if Joanna would do him a personal favor and that was to look after this girl -- Sylvia (Odio)."

Weisberg's theory page 29 -

W: The rest of the Moran (Loran) Hall story is (what they told Sylvia Odeo) was that they were going to get this man, Oswald, into Cuba to knock Castro off. I don't believe that but what I do believe (you'd never hire Oswald to kill anybody or you'd never trust him to do it on his own--he wasn't mechanically capable of pulling it off) what could have happened, though, would have been a competent man who looked like Oswald could have used Oswald's papers and it's my belief that when Oswald failed to get the visa, he lost all utility and could serve no purpose to the people he was associated with and I think this is why they framed him.

 

 

 

David,

 

II'm afraid  don't know anything about him at all.

Look at p. 2 of this pdf file:

There's a couple of clues you can pick up.

 

Are Ernie Lazar's databases searchable?  - or the FBI's Subject Files. I'll bet you'll  find out Perkins was big in the John Birch Society.

 

PS: Did you read up about the pillow incident on p. 9 of that file? Now that's an interesting idea.

McHann knew something and it tortured him for the rest of his life.

 

I think Weisberg has a pretty good theory on p. 29

 

Steve Thomas

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17 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Steve,

Some questions:

Who was the very attractive female from Miami, supposedly representing DRE, that was in the company of Hall and Howard?

 

David,

 

Wallace Heitman interview of Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho Septmber8, 1964

CE 2390 (25H) 371

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=401&tab=page


 

Manuel Salvat came to Dallas from Miami in (Sept?, Oct?), 1963 to kickstart the DRE.

He was accompanied by two people: Joaquin Pincillas, and a woman named Anita (LNU).

 

Steve Thomas

 

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20 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

 

Manuel Salvat came to Dallas from Miami in (Sept?, Oct?), 1963 to kickstart the DRE.

He was accompanied by two people: Joaquin Pincillas, and a woman named Anita (LNU).

 

Steve Thomas

 

David,

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/D Disk/DRE/Item 01.pdf

p. 10 of that pdf file

 

Miami FBI Agent James O'Connor interview of Joaquin Martinez de Pinillos 12/23/63:

Pinillos (age 22) stated that he, Ana Silveira, and Muel Salvat had traveled from Miami to Dallas in October, 1963..." for the purpose of holding public meetings to inform them about the DRE.

"Mr. Pinollos stated that Dean Perkins, 11022 Genetta Dr. Dallas, Texas assisted the DRE in organizing the meetings and arranging the publicity attached to the meetings".

 

Steve Thomas

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http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/D Disk/DRE/Item 01.pdf

Ana Silveira provides a list of people in attendance at the October 13, 1963 meeting. (although this is a typewritten list, and not the original)

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files%20Original/D%20Disk/DRE/Item%2003.pdf

 

Weisberg wants to know more about this meeting.

“The man who arranged the meetings, Dean Perkins was close to my friends”.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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Harold was not very complementary of Hosty. :-) I noticed Gen Walker gave, what, $5 to DRE at the meeting.

I'm thinking Weisberg's friends were the Castorrs. I read one of his letters where he was not pleased that Dick Russell wrote about them in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

Great thread.

 

 

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5 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Harold was not very complementary of Hosty. :-) I noticed Gen Walker gave, what, $5 to DRE at the meeting.

I'm thinking Weisberg's friends were the Castorrs. I read one of his letters where he was not pleased that Dick Russell wrote about them in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

Great thread.

 

 

David,

 

I too think the Castorr's were the friends Weisberg refers too.

 

I need to straighten out the times. The picnic and Sylvia's visit from the three guys was September.

These DRE guys were saying the "meeting" where Steig saw Oswald and Walker gave the $5 was mid-October.

Did Salvat stay in Dallas that long.? Pinolloas told O'Connor that he and Siveira spoke the English at the meetings. I got the feeling that the other guy couldn't speak English. Could Salvat speak English?

 

Have you ever seen a picture of Salvat?  Mrs. Castorr talks about a heavy set guy who couldn't speak English and might have looked like Howard.

I got to wondering if it was Pinollas and Salvat that came to visit Odio.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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Steve,

I believe Salvat spoke English. From Mary Ferrell's site.

Fabian Escalante states in JFK: The Cuban Files, p. 177: "In October (1963), further information placed Salvat and Joaquin Martinez Pinillos with Fermin de Goicoechea in Dallas, in the company of arms smuggler John Thomas Masen, from whom they proposed to acquire weapons of all kinds, presumably stolen from the military depot at Fort Hood, for 'a second invasion of Cuba to take place at the end of the year.'...immediately after the assassination, Salvat and his group engaged in a wide-ranging media campaign charging Cuba with the crisis me, circulating Oswald's pro-communist and pro-Castro background, and arguing that the assassination was Cuba's reprisal for CIA attempts on the life of Fidel Castro."

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=23849&relPageId=4 AMHINT2 (Salvat) meeting with David Morales aka Stanley Zamka.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=42232&relPageId=3 Richard Cain being recruited by Salvat.

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=AMHINT-2 Some good docs...

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