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Paz Marverde

Michele Metta interviews Jim DiEugenio on JFK, the CIA, Shaw, and Italy

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https://kennedysandking.com/news-items/michele-metta-interviews-jim-dieugenio-on-jfk-the-cia-shaw-and-italy

 

Michele Metta is an Italian journalist whose recent discovery of documents concerning Centro Mondiale Commerciale-Permindex has resulted in a number of groundbreaking essays on the interconnections between Italian fascists, US and Italian politicians, and the intelligence communities.


MM:

Hi, Jim. First, let me say I am honored to interview one of the best experts in the world on the plot that killed JFK. Welcome. An introductory question, just to break the ice: your name suggests Italian roots. Is that so?

JD:

Yes, both my parents were Italian.

MM:

Where does your passion towards that fundamental watershed of history, John Kennedy’s assassination, come from?

JD:

One day, many years after it was published, I picked up the Playboy interview with Jim Garrison. I was really puzzled because the guy seemed to make so much sense to me, much more sensible than the Warren Commission. So it seemed to me that he had been unfairly attacked by the media. So that posed the question as to why he had been attacked. Which meant that the mainstream media was not interested in getting to the bottom of the JFK case. And that has been verified by the new document releases that came out this year. Unfortunately we had to wait fifty years for those documents.

MM:

You are author of several astonishing books that I strongly recommend to everyone. One of them, Destiny Betrayed, highlights the greatness of Jim Garrison. Would you please explain it to our readers?

JD:

In the second edition of Destiny Betrayed, we see two things at work. First, how a very small bit of information, the address of Guy Banister on a pamphlet Oswald was handing out in New Orleans, mushroomed into the first real investigation into the Kennedy assassination, three years after JFK was murdered. In other words, the peeling back of Oswald’s true role as an undercover intelligence agent began to rearrange the circumstances of the crime. Second, the massive force used by the CIA, the FBI and the mass media to smear and to squelch Garrison’s investigation was unprecedented on a domestic level at that time. It’s usually the kind of campaign the CIA would use abroad to attack a designated political opponent. That is how seriously they took Garrison as a threat.

MM:

Why did JFK have to die?

JD:

In my opinion, this is not just a matter of any one policy issue. Some people say it was over Cuba, some over Vietnam. Kennedy was breaking with the status quo over several issues, both domestically and in foreign policy. And he did it pretty quickly. For example, he changed Eisenhower’s Congo policy within a matter of days after being inaugurated. In Indonesia, he decided to back Sukarno, when the CIA had previously tried to overthrow him. Domestically, he wanted to open up more state banks as opposed to Federal Reserve branches to make it easier to borrow money, and, unlike Eisenhower and Nixon, he really was going to move ahead on civil rights, through his brother Bobby Kennedy. In retrospect, it’s really kind of remarkable how much he did in less than three years to further the liberal ideal of progressive change. And by 1963, the Powers That Be said, “Enough is enough.”

MM:

What are the biggest bombshells you reveal in your excellent books?

JD:

In the second edition of Destiny Betrayed, I think it’s the fact that Allen Dulles went to see former president Harry Truman in April of 1964, while Dulles was sitting on the Warren Commission. Truman had written an editorial for the Washington Post, which was published about one month after Kennedy’s death. But he started it about 8 days after the assassination. He said the CIA had gotten out of control and he never foresaw such a thing when he signed the National Security Act. Dulles wanted him to retract that editorial. Truman would not. But as Dulles left, he said words to the effect that Kennedy had not really chastised the CIA for usurping his policy in Vietnam. Meaning, Dulles thought that this is why Truman had written the editorial!Which is a remarkable admission, because no one at that time thought the JFK murder was over the Vietnam issue. The other aspect was the number of infiltrators the CIA sent to obstruct Garrison’s investigation, and the lengths they went to in their surveillance and in misleading him. One of them, Gordon Novel, was hired by Allen Dulles himself to bug Garrison’s office.

MM:

You do more than write books. You are also the soul of other projects. For example: websites. Do you want to talk a bit about this?

JD:

Me and a friend of mine, Al Rossi, maintain the website kennedysandking. com, and I think it’s a good site with news and stories and visual essays about the assassinations of the Sixties: both Kennedys, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. The Internet is one of the last bastions of freedom of speech in America. And I think it’s important to take advantage of it while it lasts. Because, with very rare exceptions, the mainstream media does not cover these cases to any serious degree. But yet, they are central to history in my view. Things would have been quite different if those four men had lived.

MM:

Are you satisfied or disappointed with the very recent release of documents about John Kennedy?

JD:

I am not satisfied with the way it was done. I do not think President Trump should have yielded to pressure brought upon him at the last minute by the CIA and FBI to thwart the actual letter of the law. This has allowed literally thousands of pages of documents to be released in redacted form, or even with whole pages blanked out. This battle will now have to probably be waged in court because Trump gave in.

MM:

As you know, I uncovered the CMC documents. Centro Mondiale Commerciale was the Italian branch of Permindex. On the CMC Board of Directors there was Clay Shaw. Thanks to those exclusive documents, I demonstrated the importance of so many Italian characters for a real understanding of what’s behind November 22, 1963. However, to my surprise, on this I met with the hostility of some US researchers. Fortunately, there are excellent exceptions: one is Oliver Stone, who has openly praised my findings. Another excellent exception is you. After taking this opportunity to warmly thank you both, I also want to ask you please to explain the risks of an examination of the JFK Assassination too confined to the US side.

JD:

I think it constricts the picture. Because what Kennedy was doing was not limited to just the USA. Therefore, his murder had an impact that was worldwide. And the people who were opposed to him were very aware of the things he was doing in his foreign policy. In regards to that shadowy entity called the CMC, the revelations about it are still coming out today, through people like you. And as far as Italy goes, in David Talbot’s book, The Devil’s Chessboard, he shows how Kennedy was pushing for a policy to pull the socialists into the mainstream of Italian politics. A policy opposed by William Harvey, a CIA officer stationed in Italy, and also the publishing family the Luces. In my opinion, after Kennedy’s death, that policy was countered by the “strategy of tension” that began to terrorize Italy. See, it always puzzled me that Clay Shaw said he was a Wilson-FDR-JFK liberal. If so, why did he have the name and address of a member of the Borghese family in his address book?And why was he a part of this Permindex association with so many wealthy, and rightwing, worldwide members in it? Because, as the new documents reveal, Clay Shaw lied on the stand when he said he was not associated with the CIA. He was a highly compensated contract agent, and his role with the CMC was a part of that, according to FBI agent Regis Kennedy. But further, the CIA we now know did all they could to cover up this part of his life, including destroying documents about him that would show how useful he was to them. In my opinion, his association with Permindex in Italy was the key to opening the door on Shaw.


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Jim:

I sent you a separate note, but my kids got me "Destiny Betrayed" for XMAS ... excellent account of the big picture, and an honest portrayal of the real Jim Garrison.  Sorry it took so long for me to get to it, but its a great read (can't put it down).

Best,

Gene

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Gene:

As a personal comment, of the  books I worked on, that is my favorite.

Although Oliver Stone likes Reclaiming Parkland so much  that he is getting it reissued in a revised version with a new title and cover art.

 

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Jim:

What's great about Destiny is that it doesn't just chronical Garrison's work and results (which are well known) but it lays out the enormous resistance that he encountered, and the extraordinary subversion by so-called journalists and interlopers (things that I didn't fully appreciate).  I'll remain forever puzzled by Walter Sheridan's behavior, and if he was a true RFK loyalist, as the Kennedy's proclaimed.  Talk about having the deck stacked against you; that Garrison kept his sanity and composure is impressive... he was clearly on the trail of the bad guys.  And  - from my perspective -- he kept to the high road (something that his adversaries cant say) although he was portrayed otherwise in the MSM.  I also appreciate your historical perspective, and the foreign policy insights; these help to explain the "why" of the assassination, especially for the engineer/scientist type that I am.  It is troubling to understand why anyone with half a brain wouldn't see through the fairy tales and charades, and not only question the findings but be impassioned by such deception, as Garrison was.  A president is murdered, and we lose one of our finest leaders .... and no one is outraged?  It's also disheartening to understand that HSCA and AARB also unfortunately fell far short of uncovering the real story.  Finally, I know you to be a stickler for editorial discipline (footnotes, endnotes, table of contents) and Destiny is an example of how to do that properly. 

Gene

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On December 28, 2017 at 6:36 AM, Paz Marverde said:

Skyhorse?

Yes Paz.  Oliver actually went up there and suggested it when he was signing his Putin Interviews books.

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Gene:

I really tried to do all the work I could on that aspect, that is the obstruction of his case.  To show just how worried they were about Garrison's discoveries.

Its really kind of amazing the lengths they went to in that regard.   Which we did not really understand fully at the time.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Jim:

One of the more recent revelations for me (as I continue to learn) is about the disinformation and conscious efforts to  mislead,  on the part of so-called MSM... and that it persists to this day.  Its certainly shattering a long-held myth that you cant trust what's published in history books and on the news. One ideally thinks we are America, where honest/probing investigative journalism is cherished/embraced.  What we see/hear on television is truth (with a capital T).  I think this is one of the reasons why many of my generation cannot come to terms with the JFK story.   We were conditioned on the premise that we are the "good guys" and that the truth prevails.   So, this cant possibly be true. 

One anecdote I'll share is from my early career in nuclear power, where I worked for government and went to a nuclear plant to investigate so-called abuses and safety problems.  What I found was far different from what was reported in the press.  The story actually got to 60 Minutes (Diane Sawyer and Ed Bradley) and was thoroughly misrepresented.  It was 180-degrees out of kilter from the true facts.  I was shocked (but I was young) and it felt like my introduction to the "real world".  In this case, I was a federal investigator, and the MSM trumped-up the story for public consumption. Totally irresponsible.  I later learned not to talk to reporters or - if needed -- cautiously and with great circumspect. They are driven by deadlines, headlines, controversy and selling magazines/papers (not necessarily by the "truth").   

It is crystal clear ("crystal", as Tom Cruise told Jack Nicholson) that Ferrie, Shaw, Bannister et al were guilty as sin.  Something was rotten in Denmark ... Permindex, Montreal, untimely deaths, CIA tentacles, witness intimidation,  delay tactics, judges compromised ... you simply cant make this stuff up (real life being far stranger than fiction). The anecdote of David Ferrie going to Oswald's landlady to check on his library card; the pictures from the Civil Air Patrol, the admissions (and discrediting) of so many first-hand witnesses (e.g. Aloysius Habighorst).  I'd characterize it as more than just "amazing"'; more a disgraceful travesty.  So much for the land of the free, and the home of the brave ...  I will forever view the Garrison effort in a much different light. 

Gene

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Gene, I know you realize the reporters you mention answer to editors who answer to owners.  Now 95% of all main stream media is owned by the 1% or 5%.  What is put out is in their best interest.  "They" had enough control by 1963 influence the faithful, trusting public.  Cord Meyer ran Operation Mockingbird then.  ABC, NBC, CBS, Time Life, Washington Post, NY Times, the CIA had influence at the top and throughout.  The operation may have adopted a new covert name but I personally believe they are still in Full effect and through Net Neutrality may soon further limit our ability to expose the Truth.

 

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Jim, in a perfect world I would have time to re read Destiny Betrayed I & II, The Assassinations and Reclaiming Parkland as well as every article on https://kennedysandking.com/about-us.   My copies of all the books have many folded page corners, small post it notes sticking up from pages, underlined passages, highlighted paragraphs.  I too have found your penchant for documentation reassuring.  Your work has been a catalyst in and intensified my own search for the Truth which was piqued many years before them for multiple reasons.  Not to kiss up or brown nose (I abhor both) but I'd like to publicly say thank you for it as well as conversing with us peons here.  And, I'm looking forward to a previously mentioned new work.

In the above interview you state "as Dulles left, he said...Kennedy had not really chastised the CIA for usurping his (Truman's?) policy in Vietnam".  I've never read about a Truman policy on Vietnam.  Thought it was pretty much the French were handling it at the time.  Can you please elaborate to improve my limited understanding?

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Ron:

I'm not a communications expert, but my kids are, and have degrees in the subject.  Today, the idea of magazines and newspapers are all but obsolete. So are the classic venues of TV "specials" and informative news. Talk radio and reality TV are becoming old school (quickly). The new generation wants their information in short sounds "bites" (texts, tweets,  hash tags).  The stories are broken on Facebook and Twitter ... not NBC or the Washington Post.  

There is no such thing as Drew Pearson or George Lardner ... Charlie Rose, Garrison Keillor and Matt Lauer are no longer respectable.  Dan Rather, Brian Williams .... we no longer look for the "anchors" like Walter Cronkite. No longer do we blindly trust that 60 Minutes and Newsweek are infallible. The NY Times and Wall Street Journal are for our grandparents and people over 70.  I still read Rolling Stone ... but not for the philosophical truth or profound insight.  Not sure what the modern-day version of Mockingbird looks like, but its a different game today.   No one has the patience to read a book; nor do they send letters/memoranda.  No one writes (or mails) letters anymore... interviews are scripted, rehearsed and meaningless (i.e. not believable).  The truth comes to us on body cams, cell phone videos and sound bites on Action news at 11pm.  

Gene

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I agree about the news Gene, its gotten so bad especially with cable TV which is almost nothing but ignorant chatter.  

And again, thanks for enjoying the book so much.

Thanks to you to Ron.  If I said Dulles mentioned that Kennedy had not really chastised Truman, then i misspoke. What I meant was that Dulles said Kennedy had not really done that to CIA. This is gone into at length in Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, pgs. 378-81.

I was really startled when I read that material, which I got through first generation researcher Ray Marcus. It was a real eye opener.  

One of the pieces of evidence which convinced me Allen Dulles was in on the plot.

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