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Lance Payette

The H&L "two schools at the same time" mystery

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On 1/1/2018 at 2:03 PM, Michael Clark said:

Thanks, Jim. Is it JA's or your contention that Harvey and Lee knew each other or knew that they were part of this manipulation?

My take is that the handlers made every effort to keep them apart, but that Lee knew some details about Harvey, that Harvey knew little about Lee, and that Robert Oswald knew just about everything about both of them.  John and I haven’t talked about this in years, and I can’t remember exactly his take on your question.  I’ll try to ask him about it. 

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"If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what his problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out.  He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.  How much a part he played in the original scheme, I don't know, but he says a couple of interesting things that point in that direction."

--Jim Garrison, undated memo to Lou Ivon

 

Garrison_to_Ivon.jpg

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On 1/1/2018 at 12:52 PM, Bernie Laverick said:

 

Firstly, IQ tests have long since been thoroughly discredited as a measure of judging intelligence. (Clearly you don't do much reading). And secondly, 145? Even if IQs did say something of someone's intellectual capacity...145 isn't that high. You pronounce yourself as highly intelligent. Hurray! Pat on the back for Sandy. Stand back while the cleverest man in the universe figures it all out. He's fixed tellies before so if anyone is going to get to the bottom of this it will be Sandy 145 Larsen.

But that is just your puffed up grandiose and chronically egotistical self evaluation. Mine is that you present as a straightforward simpleton. At best. 

 

 

Wow. 

 

"A normal intelligence quotient (IQ) ranges from 85 to 115 (According to the Stanford-Binet scale). Only approximately 1% of the people in the world have an IQ of 135 or over. Genius or near-genius IQ is considered to start around 140 to 145. Less than 1/4 of 1 percent falls into this category."

 

http://bfy.tw/FrHU

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AND AS THEY SAY, THAT IS THAT.

 

IQ TESTS HAVE BEEN ATTACKED AS FAULTY BUT THEY USUALLY ARE SCORED FRO NOT BEING ACCURATE TO STUDENTS IN CULTURALLY DEPRIVED AREAS.  AND THERE IS SOME LEGITIMACY TO THAT.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

"If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what his problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out.  He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.  How much a part he played in the original scheme, I don't know, but he says a couple of interesting things that point in that direction."

--Jim Garrison, undated memo to Lou Ivon

Jim,

It's an interesting quote from the famous Jim Garrison.  Yet Garrison changed his CT every few months.

Even on the surface, it makes no sense that Robert Oswald would "know" that "this returning defector was not really Lee," but still allow Lee and Marina to live in his house for months with his own wife and children.

It makes no sense that Robert and Lee's mother, Marguerite, who also lived in Fort Worth at the time, would also take them into her house -- if that was not really Lee.  Is it remotely possible that any mother would not recognize her own son?  Wouldn't you recognize your own child, even after after 2.5 years?

Jim Garrison contributed some great things to the JFK CT Community, but he also said some ridiculous things in the process.  It makes no sense to canonize whatever Garrison said or wrote.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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You might enjoy reading up on Harvey and Lee at my website and at least learn the basics of it. Robert Oswald no doubt felt he was doing his patriotic duty when he helped in a program to send a Russian-speaking guy to the Soviet Union using his real brother’s identity.  Robert certainly participated in the masquerade.  So did “Marguerite.” The New Orleans D.A. understood there was a problem with the ID of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” but he may not have understood that the “problems” pre-dated the false defection by as much as a decade or so. 

HarveyandLee.net

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58 minutes ago, Michael Cross said:

Wow. 

 

"A normal intelligence quotient (IQ) ranges from 85 to 115 (According to the Stanford-Binet scale). Only approximately 1% of the people in the world have an IQ of 135 or over. Genius or near-genius IQ is considered to start around 140 to 145. Less than 1/4 of 1 percent falls into this category."

 

http://bfy.tw/FrHU

My apologies. It's official. Sandy is a genius.

Of course, everyone knows that the gigantically complex process of evaluating a human being's multi-faceted expressions of intelligence can be simply reduced to assigning it a single number! Give me strength! IQ tests are now totally discredited in academia precisely because of its lumpen, dumbed down inability to make that evaluation. Sandy scored 145 so he's a genius? No, he's just very good at doing IQ tests!! (As lots of questions can be multiple choice, it doesn't even preclude luck, let alone how you were feeling that day, or any number of other things that could and do distort the eventual result).

According to you then there must be around 20 MILLION geniuses on the planet as we speak!! That's 800,000 in the USA alone. Do you think there are that many geniuses on the planet, Michael? It kind of reduces the meaning of the word doesn't it?

What was Mozart's IQ? He was a genius wasn't he? Einstein? Shakespeare? Sandy I'm really sorry for calling you a simpleton. I didn't realise that you are among the very cream of the world's elite in intellectual capacity. In future I'm going to shut up and just listen to what the genius has to offer, because he says he has an IQ of 145. Until a H&L critic comes on here with a higher IQ, you win the argument. H&L is absolute fact because how could such a genius get something as simple as this wrong. Sandy says himself that the school records are "simple" to evaluate and if you differ with him on that then there is "something wrong with your brain", as he told the much higher qualified Lance. 

It's like having a high FQ, a 'football quotient'. Let's say one gets 177, (which, I have just declared, is very high) and means they're a fantastic player. But does it tell us how fast he is down the wing? HIs ball control? His passing ability? Maybe it would. But would it enlighten us on how he may treat the referee, or his fellow players? Or whether he loses heart when losing, his level of loyalty, his will to win, or taking a penalty under pressure, or not having that match hunger? Or any other of the thousands of facets that determine how good or bad a player is. That can only be truly evaluated in the heat of battle after encompassing every aspect of the game. Not by just taking some one-off test and assigning them a number! All that would say is that he scored 177. See how ridiculous and futile such a system is? 

But those who score such numbers love nothing better than to SCREAM it at the world as a justification for their superiority. I'll make my own mind up as to someone's intellectual ability based on their level of coherence and aptitude and all round ability to grasp the essence of many complex issues. I look up to, and admire such people.

Those who constantly need to try and 'prove' how clever they are usually aren't that clever in my experience. So trying to impress us by telling us all you have a big number is almost as creepy as trying to impress us by telling us you have a big something else...And neither are verifiable!

 I see Donald Trump's influence must have very quickly permeated it's way down the chain. 

Doomed! All of us!

 

 

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Mr. Laverick,

The title of this thread is, "The H&L 'two schools at the same time' mystery"!

Would you like to discuss the EVIDENCE?

 

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mr. Laverick,

The title of this thread is, "The H&L 'two schools at the same time' mystery"!

Would you like to discuss the EVIDENCE?

We have, Jim H, we have.  Over and over and over and over again. At this long boring point in time, it's a WIN-WIN for both sides.  Team Hardly will continue to say there were two Oswalds and two Oswald Moms and the other end will continue to say there weren't. Hardly says your evidence is correct and ours isn't and we say our rebuttals are correct and you're wrong.

Meanwhile, did you reach out to Consortium News like I suggested to let an independent reporter review the Hardly Lee case, to see if it holds water?  That's really the only real and final next step for the Hardly story. Otherwise, it's just going to keep going round and round here like a broken record.

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On 1/1/2018 at 2:03 PM, Michael Clark said:

Thanks, Jim. Is it JA's or your contention that Harvey and Lee knew each other or knew that they were part of this manipulation?

 

22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

My take is that the handlers made every effort to keep them apart, but that Lee knew some details about Harvey, that Harvey knew little about Lee, and that Robert Oswald knew just about everything about both of them.  John and I haven’t talked about this in years, and I can’t remember exactly his take on your question.  I’ll try to ask him about it. 

John's reply to my question....

Very similar.

When 13 year old Harvey told NYC psychiatrist Dr. Milton Kurian that his "brother" would sometimes take his place in school, he most 
surely was referring to Lee Oswald (he could not have been referring to Robert Oswald who was then 19 years old and in the Marines). 
Makes me wonder where, how, and why Harvey learned or was taught to refer to Lee Oswald as his brother. 

If (a big "IF") Robert Oswald took the photo of Harvey at the Bronx Zoo in 1953 (as he told the Warren Commission), Robert knew this 
13 year old boy was not his brother. 

In the summer of 1956, while Robert Oswald was living with Harvey and the MO impostor at 4936 Collinwood in Ft. Worth, he most
certainly knew these people were not his brother or mother.

At Thanksgiving, 1962, in the home of Robert Oswald, Harvey most certainly knew that John Pic and Robert Oswald were not his brothers. 
And Robert Oswald absolutely knew that Harvey and the fake MO impostor were impersonating his mother and brother. The MO impostor 
was not invited to Thanksgiving dinner, because John Pic would immediately have known the MO impostor was not his mother.

When Lee was impersonating Harvey, in the summer and fall of 1963, he (LEE) most certainly knew about Harvey.

If Lee was driving Ruth Paine's car, as described by Cliff Shasteen, then Lee not only knew Ruth Paine but must have been aware that
Marina (and Harvey on weekends) was living in her home.

 

  • David Ferrie knew Harvey (1963) and he knew Lee (1955).

  • Ruth Paine knew Harvey and he knew Lee.

  • Ed Voebel knew Harvey and he knew Lee (1954-55).

  • Robert Oswald knew Harvey and knew Lee (Pic's brother).

  • John Pic knew Harvey and knew his brother, Lee.

  • Lillian Murret, Dutz Murret, and their daughter knew Harvey and they knew Lee.

  • Jack Ruby knew about Harvey and Lee.

  •  

  • Guy Banister knew about Harvey and Lee.

  • Marguerite Oswald knew about Harvey and Lee.

  • The MO impostor knew about Harvey and Lee.

  • Capt. W.R. Westbrook knew about Harvey and Lee.

  • Sgt. Kenneth Croy knew about Harvey and Lee.

  • Roscoe White knew about Harvey and Lee.

  • J.D. Tippit knew about Harvey and Lee.

  •  

  • Many CIA people knew about Harvey and Lee.

There were also many people who, following the assassination, did not recognize the MO impostor as the women who they had known for many years. An example is the WC testimony of Myrtle and Julian Evans. They had known the real MO for over 30 years, rented an apartment to her in 1954-55, but did not recognize her from photos and interviews on television following the assassination. Several people who had known the real MO testified before the WC, but never saw the MO impostor face to face. 

It would have been very interesting to see the reaction of John Pic if he had met the MO impostor face to face during WC hearings (there is no indication that Pic every met the MO impostor). Or to see the reaction of Edward Pic (1st husband of the real MO and the father of John Pic), if he had seen the MO impostor face to face after the assassination. 

There were many people who knew and had met thereal Marguerite Claverie Oswald prior to the assassination, who would not have recognized the MO impostor as the women they knew. Employees of PPG and Lady Oris Hosiery in New Orleans worked with the real MO in the 1940's. The real MO rented a house from Mrs. Benny Comenge near Lake Pontchartrain, where she took her children during the hot summers in the 1940's. Friends and neighbors of Edwin Ekdahl and Marguerite Claverie Edkahl knew the real MO when they lived on 6th St. in Ft. Worth (1946-47) and LEE Oswald attended the nearby Lilly Clayton elementary school. Employees of Paul's Shoe Store in Ft. Worth worked with the real MO in 1957 (while the MO impostor was living at the Senator Hotel in New Orleans). Employees of Kriegers and Holmes Dept stores in New Orleans worked with the real MO in 1958-59 (while the MO impostor was living and working in the DFW area). Two Marguerite Oswalds, living and working in DFW and New Orleans in the 1940's, 1950's and early 1960's is why the federal tax returns and social security records of Marguerite Oswald remain classified to this day. 
 

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11 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

We have, Jim H, we have.  Over and over and over and over again. At this long boring point in time, it's a WIN-WIN for both sides.  Team Hardly will continue to say there were two Oswalds and two Oswald Moms and the other end will continue to say there weren't. Hardly says your evidence is correct and ours isn't and we say our rebuttals are correct and you're wrong.

Meanwhile, did you reach out to Consortium News like I suggested to let an independent reporter review the Hardly Lee case, to see if it holds water?  That's really the only real and final next step for the Hardly story. Otherwise, it's just going to keep going round and round here like a broken record.

Michael,

You are correct that arguments over H&L are becoming more and more futile. Both sides have presented their evidence over the past two years or so. Those that choose to believe (and make no mistake-it is a belief) will do so. All the critics can do is remind people of the mountain of evidence that points away from the theory. For that, they can read the back threads here at EF and look at my site and those of Greg Parker and Jeremy B.

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David Ferrie knew Harvey (1963) and he knew Lee (1955).

Ruth Paine knew Harvey and he knew Lee.

Ed Voebel knew Harvey and he knew Lee (1954-55).

Robert Oswald knew Harvey and knew Lee (Pic's brother).

John Pic knew Harvey and knew his brother, Lee.

Lillian Murret, Dutz Murret, and their daughter knew Harvey and they knew Lee.

Jack Ruby knew about Harvey and Lee.

Guy Banister knew about Harvey and Lee.

Marguerite Oswald knew about Harvey and Lee.

The MO impostor knew about Harvey and Lee.

Capt. W.R. Westbrook knew about Harvey and Lee.

Sgt. Kenneth Croy knew about Harvey and Lee.

Roscoe White knew about Harvey and Lee.

J.D. Tippit knew about Harvey and Lee.

Ha ha ha!!! What a TOP SECRET plot this is. And this is just part of the list who were in on it.

You say Tippit knew. So how many attempts have been made to contact his family or associates to see if they have any more information to offer on this? Do you know for a fact that he didn't spill the beans? Have you tried to find out? Has any of your lot even attempted to see if the associates of the above have more information to offer? Of course you haven't. Because that would be investigative journalism and it would lead you up a dead end, so you simply don't bother and struggle on with scratchy hearsay and 40 year old witness testimony.

The fact that none of you are prepared to delve any deeper into any aspect of your obsessive theory/religion is very revealing. It tells us everything.

You still haven't answered whether you or JA would welcome an offer for the film rights.  

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19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

"If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what his problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out.  He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.  How much a part he played in the original scheme, I don't know, but he says a couple of interesting things that point in that direction."

--Jim Garrison, undated memo to Lou Ivon

 

Garrison_to_Ivon.jpg

 

 

This is amazing. I had no idea that Jim Garrison suspected there were two Oswalds, at least not as early as their Marine Corps service and defection.

Jim H. or Jim D., do you know when the above was written?

 

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4 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim H. or Jim D., do you know when the above was written?


And does anybody know if Garrison wrote about the two Oswalds in his books?

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bernie Laverick said:

 

The fact that none of you are prepared to delve any deeper into any aspect of your obsessive theory/religion is very revealing. It tells us everything.

 

 Bernie, I looked at your posting history in your profile, and it is you who are obsessed.

I also saw a few of your music videos, and I am still laughing... 😂

Edited by Michael Clark

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