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Cory Santos

For the UFO people, John Lear's take on the alleged UFO video released.

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4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I was a non-posting/non-contributing member of the forum reading audience for years.

This audience is many, many times greater in number than actual posters.

I well knew and highly appreciated ( like most other non-posting readers ) that this was an online forum where some of the most highly credentialed, educated and respected JFK researchers were willing to share, debate and inform others of what they have discovered in their "years" of hard, diligent, intelligently organized and probably expense sacrificing work in their pursuit of the JFK assassination truth.

Now retired and with more free time, the time spent checking into the forum on an almost daily basis as a non-posting reader was satisfying a lifelong yearning of mine ( from the age of 12 through my 60's ) to know so much more about the most serious, competent and thorough JFK research.

 

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Lance,

you say you you saw a flying disc while in the company of a skeptic, and that there was a psychic component. Would you tell us more?

Joe, I don't think someone like you (or I, for that matter) has to apologize for whatever limited knowledge and perspective we bring to a forum such as this.  Yes, I have not spent 5,000 hours of my life pondering the Magic Bullet or the Prayer Man photo (thank God!), but even I have discovered a couple of things that others had missed.  When I was in a law school class of 140 students and some professor would pose a question that had me stumped as to what he was even talking about, I was surprised at how often someone far below me in the class ranking would immediately grasp what was being asked and have the answer.  140 brains are almost always better than 14 brains.  I also think it's a mistake to pay too much deference to the supposed Big Guns in a field such as this.  I know personally some of the Big Guns of ufology, and some of them are truly bizarre.  Big Gun too often equates to Self-Promoter With An Agenda.  In all cases, as Steve says, we have to think for ourselves and learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Lastly, it seems to me that Internet forums of all types gradually deteriorate and end up being dominated by some version of the lunatic fringe.  Those who really had something worthwhile to contribute at the outset eventually get tired of the silliness and fall away.  I have seen this on numerous forums, including Christian ones, and a friend who is really proficient in photography told me the other day that he has observed exactly the same thing on photography forums.  When I look at the posts from several years ago, it seems to me that the same thing may have happened to some extent here.

Paul, my UFO experience was very minor league and probably only of interest to me.  I am very thankful I had my skeptic buddy with me, because otherwise I would have no credibility whatsoever.  I had been OBSESSED with the UFO phenomenon since the age of about 7, devouring the books of Donald Keyhoe, Ed Ruppelt and Frank Edwards when they were hot off the presses and sitting on my parents' roof at night watching the skies.  (Oddly, many in the UFO field say the exact same thing about their childhoods - a weird, hard-to-explain OBSESSION.)  So I would have been deemed a very suspect witness, even though I had never really seen anything unusual before.

The incident occurred in 1971, when I was a junior in college.  Part of the oddity is that I can remember it like it happened 5 minutes ago - what I was thinking, what I was feeling, and every word that was said.  Three of us had driven to Las Vegas for a day trip in a primer gray VW Beetle we had borrowed from another friend.  (I mention the primer gray Beetle only because I sometimes wonder if it somehow caught the UFO's attention!)  We had only $5 each and did nothing more than buy hamburgers and look around.  There was definitely no drinking or drug use.

We were driving the 175 miles back to campus in late afternoon, just about the time you might first start thinking about turning on your headlights.  I was driving, my skeptic buddy Dave was the passenger, and the third guy, Ralph, had dozed off in the back seat.  We were on the winding highway between Vegas and the Hoover Dam, not too far from the dam.  (Bodies of water and major power sources are often associated with UFO sightings.)  I describe Dave as a skeptic because he was a hard-nosed character from Chicago who mercilessly ridiculed my Christian beliefs.

As I approached a curve about 300 yards ahead of me, I saw a small oval of light on the side of the hill directly in front of me.  My first thought was, "Must be the headlights of a car behind me."  I looked in the rearview mirror, and there were no cars behind me.  I next thought, "Wait a minute - headlights don't just end in oval pools of light anyway."

A movement then caught my eye near the upper right corner of the flat VW windshield.  I looked more closely and saw a dark-colored disk that seemed to be pacing our car.  It wasn't huge - I'd say between 10 and 20 feet in diameter.  And it wasn't far away - I'd guess 50 to 100 yards.  It was over a canyon adjacent to the highway.  I watched in silence long enough to realize that this was something weird, then said "What ... the hell ... is THAT?"  Dave jumped like he'd been jolted by electricity and replied "Jesus Christ, do you see it too?  I thought I was seeing things!"  I said "Oh, no, I see it too."

We watched for a few more seconds, and then we were separated from the canyon by a small hill.  When we emerged and could see the canyon again, the object was gone.

You may know that some close-up UFO witnesses report hearing a "voice" inside their heads saying something like "This is not important ... you don't need to remember this."  I do not recall anything like that, but:

I remember that when Ralph awoke, we told him he had missed a UFO.  Unlike the rest of the incident, I don't have a vivid recollection of what we said to Ralph or on the remaining 2-3 hours back to campus.  I can't describe exactly how the few minutes of the sighting were "different" from ordinary reality, but they were - not "dream-like," not "more real than real," but "different."  It may simply be that the awareness that this was something Weird catapulted our minds into a higher state of awareness.  Anyway, with my background I should have been filing sighting reports with APRO and NICAP as soon as we got back and babbling like a fool to my roommate, my fiancé, and everyone I met.  But I didn't.  I don't believe I ever mentioned it to ANYONE.  This fact was brought home to me about ten years later.  The woman who had been my fiancé in 1971 was now my wife.  I was reading some UFO reports and said "Hey, listen to this - it's almost exactly like the one Dave and I had that I told you about back in college."  My wife said "WHAT??? You have NEVER told me about any UFO experience."  I then realized that no, I hadn't - I hadn't told her or anyone else, nor had I discussed it again with Dave.  I had been perfectly, consciously aware of the incident the entire time, but it was as though I had been programmed to say nothing.  So that is was I mean by a "psychic" component.  It is the one thing that convinces me that this was not some piece of unknown military technology.

Again, a very minor league sighting.  But as with all paranormal phenomena, even a minor league experience of your own gives a completely different perspective to the reports of others.  I remember professor Stephen Braude saying in one of his books that it would be easier to dismiss all Spiritualist phenomena as absurd if he himself had not observed a small table walking across the room under its own power, with no one anywhere near it.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Lastly, it seems to me that Internet forums of all types gradually deteriorate and end up being dominated by some version of the lunatic fringe.  Those who really had something worthwhile to contribute at the outset eventually get tired of the silliness and fall away.  I have seen this on numerous forums, including Christian ones, and a friend who is really proficient in photography told me the other day that he has observed exactly the same thing on photography forums.  When I look at the posts from several years ago, it seems to me that the same thing may have happened to some extent here.

I really hope this is not the case with this forum.

It is simply the best we have. Thousands of readers. Many highly educated.

And besides the JFK assassination, there are so many other "hidden secret agenda truths" of great importance to us all that have been found, exposed and revealed as a peripheral result of this research effort.

And are still being revealed 55 years after 1963!

JFK's nation shocking assassination and it's inadequate, unanswered questions coverage and investigation was sensed by thousands of reasoned, moral and justice honoring men and women who then took on personal missions to find the truth. And often these mission's involved lifetime efforts with great financial sacrifice.

These men and women may have just become typical lawyers, writers and educators were it not for their inspiration for the truth following 11,22,1963. 

And because of their noble efforts in this often downplayed and even maligned area of study, we are all beneficiaries in being gifted with something more closely resembling the truth ... and in many more areas than just the JFK assassination, although usually related.

When I listened to Mae Magnin Brussell ( Her grandfather started I.Magnin and I lived in the same small town location of her radio station ) starting in 1971 ( "Dialogue: Conspiracy" and"World Watchers International")  I was often exhausted because she covered so much material she had discovered ( for hours non-stop ) and did so in a highly energized way while she herself never tired.

However, so many things Mae Brussell found and covered in her broadcasts, came back to me in my later years when they were actually proven to be true !

Including Nazis re-integrated into our society and Allen Dulles's connection to them, even during the war. 

And I realized that this woman was not fringe or whacky and instead was an amazingly inspired and talented researcher whose mission to inform us and warn us about things going on all around us (that she surmised we truly needed to know)  was a really important, good and courageous effort and sacrifice on her part.

As far as the UFO/Alien story is concerned ( and I have read a lot about this subject ) I am more a believer than not...but even discussing this subject ( especially here on this forum) comes with risks that could harm the forums integrity... IMO.

I wish there was a similar forum of this high caliber available to discuss this subject separately.

Coast To Coast posting just doesn't get it.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Interesting debates a few years ago at the Washington Press club in front of retired Senators etc. Found the discussion every interesting. Hope you do.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I really hope this is not the case with this forum.

It is simply the best we have. Thousands of readers. Many highly educated.

And besides the JFK assassination, there are so many other "hidden secret agenda truths" of great importance to us all that have been found, exposed and revealed as a peripheral result of this research effort.

And are still being revealed 55 years after 1963!

JFK's nation shocking assassination and it's inadequate, unanswered questions coverage and investigation was sensed by thousands of reasoned, moral and justice honoring men and women who then took on personal missions to find the truth. And often these mission's involved lifetime efforts with great financial sacrifice.

These men and women may have just become typical lawyers, writers and educators were it not for their inspiration for the truth following 11,22,1963. 

And because of their noble efforts in this often downplayed and even maligned area of study, we are all beneficiaries in being gifted with something more closely resembling the truth ... and in many more areas than just the JFK assassination, although usually related.

When I listened to Mae Magnin Brussell ( Her grandfather started I.Magnin and I lived in the same small town location of her radio station ) starting in 1971 ( "Dialogue: Conspiracy" and"World Watchers International")  I was often exhausted because she covered so much material she had discovered ( for hours non-stop ) and did so in a highly energized way while she herself never tired.

However, so many things Mae Brussell found and covered in her broadcasts, came back to me in my later years when they were actually proven to be true !

Including Nazis re-integrated into our society and Allen Dulles's connection to them, even during the war. 

And I realized that this woman was not fringe or whacky and instead was an amazingly inspired and talented researcher whose mission to inform us and warn us about things going on all around us (that she surmised we truly needed to know)  was a really important, good and courageous effort and sacrifice on her part.

As far as the UFO/Alien story is concerned ( and I have read a lot about this subject ) I am more a believer than not...but even discussing this subject ( especially here on this forum) comes with risks that could harm the forums integrity... IMO.

I wish there was a similar forum of this high caliber available to discuss this subject separately.

Coast To Coast posting just doesn't get it.

 

Mae Brussell influenced my thinking greatly. I discovered her radio show by accident driving home late one evening from SF to Berkeley. The signal was weak and I could only get it after dark. I think her exposure of the Nazi connection was spot on, and we are still uncovering that. Have you read the chapter from Albarelli’s upcoming book that Caddy posted here? 

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I'll have to admit, Mae Brussell has never even been on my radar screen.

There is a "conspiracy mindset" that I simply don't share.  Not that conspiracies don't exist in the real world, but they all bear certain hallmarks that are nothing like the conspiracies that those with the conspiracy mindset see all around them.  I was simply agog to read Mae Brussell's theory of the assassination of John Lennon.

I have worked for the federal government, a state government, two county governments, and one municipal government, as well as a Fortune 100 (at the time) corporation.  In my experience, government at all levels is almost comically disorganized, inefficient, stupider than would seem possible, and riddled with all the flaws of human nature.  The notion that any government, or any substantial bureaucracy of any sort, would be capable of pulling off and concealing an elaborate conspiracy strikes me as inherently unbelievable.  This is true regardless of whether the supposed conspiracy is the assassination of JFK, the truth about UFOs, or any of the other conspiracies that those with the conspiracy mindset see all around them.

Especially before I became a lawyer, I used to share the conspiracy mindset in regard to the JFK assassination, UFOs, and other matters.  I lapped it all up.  As the decades passed and my critical-thinking skills and overall level of sophistication increased, I increasingly realized that the appropriate response to someone with the conspiracy mindset is not "Wow, tell me more!" but "I believe you are either delusional or a huckster or both and will continue to believe so until you prove by hard, solid evidence that you are not."

Having studied the assassination of JFK reasonably thoroughly, no one with the conspiracy mindset would ever convince me that, for example, JFK was assassinated by a cabal of ex-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers or that Lee Harvey Oswald was actually two separate individuals groomed since childhood to fulfill their destinies as Harvey and Lee.  These things are simply insane, and I'm not going to pretend they aren't or humor those with the conspiracy mindset who actually hold these delusions or self-servingly promote them.  Their "evidence" is never even really evidence at all, and they blithely ignore the mountains of real evidence.

Because JFK was either despised by so many different agencies, organizations and individuals, or so many agencies, organizations and individuals would clearly have benefitted from his death, hypothesizing conspiracies is absurdly easy.  Many of these agencies, organizations and individuals unquestionably were Not Nice People, which makes hypothesizing their involvement that much easier.  Overlaid on this is the reality that JFK was a highly charismatic leader, the world probably would be a better place today if he had lived, and the notion that he was assassinated by a disturbed nobody with a $20 rifle is psychologically unsatisfying.

Ergo, those with the conspiracy mindset hypothesize 40 completely different conspiracies, each with a superficial plausibility, and fail to see how silly this has become.  Those favoring the Deep Politics theory, which now predominates, have as much disdain for the other theories as they do for the Lone Nut explanation.  It is all, as one very experienced researcher who does not participate here said to me, a "parlor game" among those with the conspiracy mindset.  I don't think it really has as much to do with "solving the JFK assassination" as with "proving my conspiracy is more clever than yours and I can sell more books and accumulate more True Believers than you can."

The Lone Nutters are not debunkers.  A debunker is someone who says, notwithstanding a really huge body of hard evidence and anecdotal evidence, "The UFO phenomenon doesn't exist.  It's all hoaxes and delusions."  A Lone Nutter says "I am satisfied the Warren Commission and HSCA looked into this matter thoroughly and in good faith and reached a sound conclusion (notwithstanding the HSCA's dictabelt tangent); I am satisfied authors and researchers like Jean Davison, Gerald Posner, Norman Mailer, Vincent Bugliosi and others looked into this matter in good faith and reached sound conclusions; I have reviewed the evidence as thoroughly and in good faith as I can and have reached similar conclusions; and nothing in the conspiracy theories or 'evidence' on which they are based has, as yet, convinced me otherwise."  A Lone Nutter is essentially someone who says "You may be sincere, but I'm sorry: The earth is simply not flat, and I no longer care what 'evidence' you have to 'prove' it is."

To a debunker, I am a UFO True Believer merely because I have had an intense interest in the subject and saw a very classic UFO.  But all I really say is, "Whatever UFOs are, that's what I saw."  An ET craft, an interdimensional visitor, a time traveler, an ultra-terrestrial, a hologram, advanced military technology, a CIA mind-control experiment, a mysterious product of my and Dave's own minds, something even weirder than any of these?  I really have no idea.  Because I lack the conspiracy mindset, I do not take the evidence and run with it, convincing myself that reptilian aliens control the world governments, there are ET bases on the dark side of the moon, JFK was killed because he got too inquisitive, or any of the other examples of Obvious Lunacy.  I have likewise seen nothing to convince me that some massively secret agency deep within the bowels of the disorganized, inefficient, stupid, flawed bureaucracy of the federal government knows The Truth and has been successfully covering it up for the entire 70 years since the "Roswell crash."

Just my $0.02 worth, of course.  But I really think the basic problem is that there is a conspiracy mindset that simply sees a different reality than those with the non-conspiracy mindset see, and never the twain shall meet.

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So Lance - in effect what you are saying is that the wacky conspiracy theories and theorists that abound convince you that there is no conspiracy when it comes to the JFK assassination, or UFO’s for that matter. So you have hit a nail on its head. I’ve been equally involved my whole life in trying to ferret out truth, and long ago came to the conclusion that the wacky theories which abound have the effect you exemplify. It’s a small step from believeing that Sandy Hook never happened, no jet hit the Pentagon, and the moon landing is a hoax, to the position you now occupy that all of it is bunk. Well, what a great way to hide conspiracy in plain sight. Our job is to separate the wheat from the chaff. You instead throw out the baby with the bath water. 

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Paul, I haven't read the chapter in Albarelli's book you mentioned yet. Can you give me the title of the thread?

Regards Mae Brussell, she reported so much stuff that at times it was dizzying.

Listening to her broadcasts was sometimes exhausting but she did come up with really important information in her massive culling of the wheat research effort that her listeners otherwise may have never been made aware of.

Often dark truths. Things that a true democratic society needs to know about to keep some control over human nature power grabbing by those whose interests conflict with a such a society.

Lance's views on the JFK assassination and other major society changing events in our modern history, and especially those who proclaim these events as conspiracies beyond rational thought as he describes such, are ones that I have many times given consideration to myself.

And I trust so many others who believe these events were results of conspiracies have too.

You do ask yourself at times to examine what is real and rational and what isn't? 

Whether you are overthinking about these subjects and why?

Whether you are too involved emotionally versus rationally and objectively in these events because they were so traumatic to your personal sense of the world and it's order? 

Is the conspiracy view something that we choose because it makes us feel more secure in a very insecure world versus non-conspiracy coincidences?

Are we conspiracy believers just very bored persons looking for something to fill that void? 

All very valid view points that must be considered in this realm.

Regards Lance's assessment of government on all levels as being so riddled with disorganization, inefficiency and stupidity that makes deep conspiracies involving them more unlikely than likely, I must respond with my view that this take is way too simplistic considering how much the higher or highest rungs of power in government are often very separated from the large bureaucracies beneath them.

These higher rungs of government ( especially the military and black budget agencies and their think tanks ) can be very organized, efficient, and intelligent. And they can keep secrets.

From my simple, less than higher education working person's point of view, which is all I have had to draw on and depend on to get me through 60+ years of living in this often tough world, I have seen many conspiracies exposed in every level and area of government. Conspiracies that if suggested before they were exposed would be met with derisive criticism of those suggesting these including calling them whacky and nuts as the writers Lance mentioned like Bugliosi constantly did also.

Crooked cops, judges, mayors, back room real estate and rezoning deals and pay offs, sex scandals, killings thought to be random later found to be perpetrated by organized crime, you name it.

Conspiracies happen every day, all around us, all the time.

To think that the JFK, RFK and MLK killings couldn't have been carried out by corrupt and powerful groups and conspiracies involving them versus lone nut crazies who just got lucky is to me as irrational as Lance labeling CTers as fringe nut cases.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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25 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

These higher rungs of government ( especially the military and black budget agencies and their think tanks ) can be very organized, efficient, and intelligent. And they can keep secrets.

From my simple, less than higher education working person's point of view, which is all I have had to draw and depend on to get me through 60+ years of living in this often tough world, I have seen many conspiracies exposed in every level and area of government. Conspiracies that if suggested before they were exposed would be met with derisive criticism of those suggesting these including calling them whacky and nuts as the writers Lance mentioned like Bugliosi constantly did also.

Crooked cops, judges, mayors, back room real estate and rezoning deals and pay offs, sex scandals, killings thought to be random later found to be perpetrated by organized crime, you name it.

Conspiracies happen every day, all around us, all the time.

To think that the JFK, RFK and MLK killings couldn't have been carried out by corrupt and powerful groups and conspiracies involving them versus lone nut crazies who just got lucky is to me as irrational as Lance labels CTers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nicely stated.

An excerpt from Salandria link:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24562-salandria-and-fonzi-discuss-warren-commission-report-1966/

Salandria: I suggest that Specter and the Commission - at least part of the Commission and certainly Specter - had a pre-determined predisposition to arrive at certain inferences irrespective of what the evidence was. And you consider that lacking in integrity. Well I think that's one way of looking at it.
But I think that if you put yourself in the role of Specter at this time - and so far as I can empathize with that kind of position - he took a job. He conceived himself as working for a governmental organization which in turn represented the President and had a specific task. And within that framework, he worked. And in that role he saw himself. And in that role he did a job which he considered a good one, and which was entirely consistent because he had an assignment. And that assignment was - I'm afraid had to be - that there was one assassin, one gun, stationed in the rear of the Texas Book Depository building. And that therefore no matter what the evidence, the ultimate inference would be that. That's how I see Specter's role here. In a certain context, he has integrity. He served his employer.
He thinks he served the country. I think he served the government.

 

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Well, you dont question orders, you follow them.

There is a lot of good truth to that.

Or as it has been said:

Jessep: You ever served in an infantry unit son?
Kaffee: No Sir.
Jessep: You ever served in a forward area unit?
Kaffee: No Sir.
Jessep: You ever put your life in another mans hands, and in return, asked him to put his life in yours?
Kaffee: No Sir.
Jessep: We follow orders, we follow orders or people die, it’s that simple. Are we clear?
Kaffee: Yes, Sir.
Jessep: Are we clear

Edited by Cory Santos

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I read an article that said when we jettisoned the LEM, when it hit the moon it registered a huge vibration, as if the moon were hallow.  I've also read that the Apollo 11 astronauts did see many things on the moon that they would consider to be extra-terrestrials.  And didn't Obama fire a rocket at the moon to see if there was sub-surface water?  That was kind of odd since 8 hours earlier, Obama had won the Nobel Peace Prize.  Ironic? 

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On 1/2/2018 at 10:32 PM, Cory Santos said:

Well... I cannot comment on that but according to Mr. Lear, he believes that there is a base on what you called the far side of the moon which is also referred to as the dark side of the moon.  Hope that helps.

I do wonder of that was also the thinking of the US and Soviet governments...just total supposition...

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On 1/4/2018 at 11:53 AM, Cory Santos said:

Moreover, I am still troubled by the fact that Kruschev is then taken out by factions in his government.  Why?  Were these people connected at all to JFK?  Were they somehow involved with LHO?  Why did they take him out?  Its been two decades since I read "Kruschev Remembers" and I dont recall his thoughts on the matter.  But two world leaders taken out of power within a year of each other.  A "Strange coincidence"?  A very interesting one at the very least and very relevant to this forum for discussion.

Thank you for your insight Ms. Brown.

 

I tend to agree with the assumption that Kruschev was perceived as a danger by his own people who then had him taken out.  It is my thinking that the JFK assassination had aspects which were  coordinated between individuals in the US and individuals in the USSR and that this had to remain concealed.  It is my thinking that the tracking of LHO from both sides is evidence that this is what could have taken place.  

I also think Marina was, as James Hosty told me, some sort of a sleeper agent.  I think she knows much more than she has ever told us...

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On 1/6/2018 at 1:17 PM, David Andrews said:

This "rumor" was on the internet about 10 years ago, on a page with a pic of vB's niece, and her story.  I notice the mantle has been taken up by Carol Rosin.  Who knows the veracity of vB's supposed warning?  Rosin's version is featured on sites that advertise that you, too, can become one of the Illuminati if you pay for the initiation:

http://nexusilluminati.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-hoax-alien-invasion-how-wernher-von.html

Who pays Rosin to spread this "info" over a dozen different internet sites?  Is this Rosin's career now?

My own belief is that "aliens among us" (as separate from UFOs), and alien invasions, are a hoax conveniently developed for release after World War II, both for its own confusion value and to stimulate anxiety over a Communist invasion.  The hoax succeeded too well: it's now too big and enduring to be disavowed, and still has its xenophobic applications.

Dr. Carol Rosin was hired by WVB when he moved to DC and worked with him.  It is apparently her responsibility to be a spokesperson for him, or so she says.  

In some ways, this situation seems analogous to JFK and Viet Nam.  They did not live, so who knows exactly what they would have said and done?

Just my 2 cents...

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OK.  But if you Google Rosin and von Braun...that aliens hoax story is repeated on at least 20 different websites, over several Google pages..  So somebody's paying to get it out there.  Does Rosin get a piece of that?

https://www.bing.com/search?q=carole+Rosin+von+braun&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTTR&conversationid

Edited by David Andrews

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