Roscoe White

[B. A. Copeland]

On 1/7/2018 at 6:03 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Andrew,

....Only an ignoramus would say that.  There never was and never will be any such thing as "the Right Wing of the CIA."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Well...correct me if I am wrong but as I read that I cannot help but to think of Cord Meyer Jr and Jim Angleton lol...they both saw the political world in different ways. One might even call one "leftist" and the other "right-wing" relative to one another. It could possibly exist in a figurative manner.

[Paul Trejo]

2 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Well...correct me if I am wrong but as I read that I cannot help but to think of Cord Meyer Jr and Jim Angleton lol...they both saw the political world in different ways. One might even call one "leftist" and the other "right-wing" relative to one another. It could possibly exist in a figurative manner.

Mr. Copeland,

It is one thing to hold rightist political opinions.  It is quite another thing to say that there is a "Right Wing of the CIA" as a department of the CIA, as implied by Ricky White when he described the secret employment of his father, Roscoe White.

Of course there were rightist and leftist people in the CIA, as there are in any community.   It is the terminology I hold forth.   "The Right Wing of the CIA"  !!

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[B. A. Copeland]

5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mr. Copeland,

It is one thing to hold rightist political opinions.  It is quite another thing to say that there is a "Right Wing of the CIA" as a department of the CIA, as implied by Ricky White when he described the secret employment of his father, Roscoe White.

Of course there were rightist and leftist people in the CIA, as there are in any community.   It is the terminology I hold forth.   "The Right Wing of the CIA"  !!

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Ahh thanks for clarification. I was wondering if that was what was meant. Now an actual, "official" "Right Wing Of The CIA" lol..? Well....I am not so sure about that...I'd have to agree with you there.

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

I'm still asking and anyone is welcome to offer their opinion, if Lee Bowers saw two gentlemen behind the fence of the grassy knoll, two men that he considered to be strangers because everyone else he saw he recognized, who might these two men be?  Any thoughts? 

And again, Paul...Just because YOU don't have the answers to certain questions, doesn't mean someone ELSE doesn't have the answers. Even Lee Bowers had much more information that he chose not to share with the government, but he did share with friends and his pastor before he died.  Maybe you think there is a correlation between how many books you've read or how many years you've studied to how much truth you really know.  I'm sorry to break it to you, but life doesn't work that way.

My father hadn't read one book about JFK because he didn't have to.  He heard it first hand as LBJ talked to many different people.  He knew the names, the locations of the shooters, the person who delivered the final head shot and everything else.  To be honest, he probably regretted ever hearing those things.  But, like I said...life doesn't work that way.

Let's take Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante for example.  Wiretaps were instrumental in gaining information pertaining to the JFK assassination.  We have the confessions of New Orleans Mafia Godfather Carlos Marcello confessing his involvement in the JFK assassination on several occasions.  We also have conversations which reveal Florida Mafia Godfather Santo Trafficante expressing involvement  in the assassination, even making a deathbed statement to his attorney, Frank Ragano.

What about conversations that took place between Santo Trafficante and Miami businessman, Jose Aleman,  in 1963, shortly before the assassination:

Trafficante:  "Have you seen how his brother is hitting Hoffa...mark my word, this man Kennedy is in trouble and will get what is coming to him."

Jose Aleman:  "Kennedy will be re-elected".

Trafficante: "You don't understand me.  Kennedy's not going to make it to the election.  He is going to be hit".

Afterwards...

Jimmy Hoffa: " I told you they could do it.  I'll never forget what Carlos and Santo did for me".

Carlos Marcello:  "When you see Jimmy, you tell him he owes me and he owes me big.  I had the little son-of-a-bitch killed, and I'd do it again...I wish I could have done it myself".

And after Giancana was murdered, Trafficante said, "Now there's only two people alive who know who killed Kennedy, and they ain't talkin'".

Trafficante on his deathbed to his attorney:  "Carlos xxxxed up.  We should have not have killed John.  We should have killed Bobby."

This is just a small sampling of all the wiretapped conversations we have.  

Rich Pope,

If you have answers that others don't have, please feel free to share them there.

As for your taped conversations of Trafficante, Aleman, Hoffa and Marcello -- almost everybody here has heard them many times over the past 30 years.   Boring.

If you have something new to add - why hint around at it?    Or are you writing another fictional account -- like Ricky White, embellishing what his father said?

As for Lee Bowers, of course he saw two gentlemen behind the fence of the Grassy Knoll -- but he had no idea who they were, and nobody else in the past half-century has been able to identify them, either.   The only thing we can say with confidence is that they were part of the Right-wing, because of their Barry Goldwater bumper stickers.

Again, RIch, if you think you know who those two gentlemen were, then why not share your material evidence on this thread?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 19, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Ahh thanks for clarification. I was wondering if that was what was meant. Now an actual, "official" "Right Wing Of The CIA" lol..? Well....I am not so sure about that...I'd have to agree with you there.

Mr. Copeland,

In my opinion, the light that this remark sheds on the JFK Assassination, is that RIcky White at the very least perceived his father as a Right-winger -- perhaps an extreme Right-winger.

This corresponds to the Walker-did-it CT, which regards the JFK Assassination as caused by a Radical Right Conspiracy.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

54 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Lucien Sarti was a French Assassin who shot from behind the fence of the grassy knoll.  Witness Gordon Arnold, who was filming the parade, heard a shot whiz by his left ear and even a second shot once he hit the ground.  A person dressed as a police officer, but not wearing a hat and with filthy hands kicked Arnold and asked if he had been taking pictures of the motorcade.  Arnold said he was and the fake police officer took the film away, leaving Arnold the camera because it belonged to his mother.  Whether you believe it or not, this is the first person Lee Bowers saw.  The second person, more heavy set needs a little more digging.

Rich,

I'll wait patiently to read your evidence for this interesting CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

 

[Michael Walton]

21 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Paul,

I just told you where I got it.  Witness Gordon Arnold.  Don't tell me you think he's lying.

The Arnold story is right up there with Beverly Oliver and Judy Baker. Just another charlatan and faker trying to inject himself into the story.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold1.htm

[Ron Bulman]

25 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Paul,

I just told you where I got it.  Witness Gordon Arnold.  Don't tell me you think he's lying.

He doesn't care where you got it.  If it contradicts the Warren Omission or LHO doing it on behalf of Walker all you will get is Bologna.   

[Ron Bulman]

39 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

The Arnold story is right up there with Beverly Oliver and Judy Baker. Just another charlatan and faker trying to inject himself into the story.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold1.htm

Maybe not.  Arnold was in the military and shipped off the next day, not heard from for years.  Shut up.  No FBI or Warren Omission interview or statement.  More believable to me than Judith.   Some still believe Ms. Oliver credible and listen to her songs and prayers.  Zapruder heard a shot come over his shoulder too but that was ignored as well.  I've tried to argue what I thought was logically with McAdams years ago on JFKFacts.  Like butting your head against a wall, worse than paul t or dvp.  An obstinate oaf.  Banned from this site before I joined.  Disgraced and fired from Marquette University, as a Professor, with a degree from Harvard.  That's something you really have to work hard or be Totally Ignorant (incapable of a Harvard Degree?) to accomplish.  Look around the USA.  Professor's don't get fired.

http://www.prouty.org/mcadams/

Quite possibly a latter day financed operative of what ever Operation Mockingbird is called these days.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=operation+mockingbird&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=9e79fe1eddb74c95bbd7e1ec30a49ffa&sp=1&qs=LS&pq=operation+mock&sc=8-14&cvid=9e79fe1eddb74c95bbd7e1ec30a49ffa

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Joe Bauer]

I don't think there is much debate over Lee Bower's under oath, WC testimony of seeing two men in the area of the picket fence ( although 15 feet apart ) on 11,22,1963 just before everything broke loose there.

Bowers was clear that these two men were not dressed like railroad men. He clearly described one man as younger appearing and wearing a plaid shirt or coat versus the other man being older and heavier and wearing a white shirt and dark pants.

Exactly the same "plaid shirt" description that Julia Ann Mercer gave her police interviewers that same day regarding seeing a younger man wearing this same type shirt while leaving the stalled Dealey Plaza plumbing truck and carrying a rifle case up the grassy knoll toward the general area of the picket fence, an hour or more before the motorcade.

One could dismiss these two matching male, age and clothing observation testimonies in the same area and only 1 hour apart by two separate eyewitnesses as coincidence or even made up. My common sense doesn't make that easy to do so.

How many of the male bystanders in Dealey Plaza wore plaid shirts that day?

One? None? Maybe Billy Lovelady?

And as I have mentioned before, of all the people wanting to get a view of JFK's motorcade through Dealey Plaza that sunny day, who in their right mind would choose a viewing location behind a view obstructing fence in the dark shadows of overhanging tree branches, AND standing in shoe dirtying mud in a tight space between car bumpers and the fence, when there were so many open view dry areas to do so? We know from several eyewitness accounts of fresh muddy shoe prints , mud on a car bumper and cigarette butts that someone was in this location at least while the cars were parked there that day.

That action is so illogical it's ridiculous. 

Only covert security might position themselves in such a damp, dirty and difficult view area contrary to those chosen by two hundred other motorcade viewers in the Plaza.

It's hundreds of illogical actions like this related by witnesses to the event or illogical interactions with the main suspects by other witnesses that FORCES a rational thinking person to conclude something other or much more than the WC "Lone Nut" finding.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Paul,

I just told you where I got it.  Witness Gordon Arnold.  Don't tell me you think he's lying.

Rich,

Leaving the credibility of Gordon Arnold aside for the moment (e.g. that the man he encountered started out as a DPD officer, but over the years became a Secret Service agent, and later on he became a  CIA agent), I wasn't talking about Gordon Arnold.

I was talking about Lucian Sarti.

You said that Lucien Sarti shot from behind the fence of the grassy knoll.   That's the CT I'm wondering about.   I know the old story told by Gordon Arnold -- but he never mentioned Lucian Sarti in his interviews (that I ever saw).   Yet you somehow are certain that Lucien Sarti was the first person that Lee Bowers saw. 

Are you now saying that Gordon Arnold told you personally that Lucien Sarti was the first man behind the picket fence?    

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 21, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Cory Santos]

I believe that information was on an episode of The Men Who Killed Kennedy. 

Sarti's name is nothing new.

Interesting, a person who has a heavy accent is put in Dealey Plaza and presumably interacts with Texans but no one notices or says, "hey, there was a cop on the grassy knoll who had a very strong accent."

Ok.  As for Arnold's story, the tough thing is finding him in the photos and film.  That debate aside, assuming Gordan was telling the truth, the problem is why would the CIA or FBI or UFO people or whomever one believes is behind this, utilize obvious shooters that stick out in the crowd?  It goes against concealment, it goes against blend in, everything that if there was a conspiracy logic dictates the conspirators would have done.  Especially when you had plenty of people close by to use.  You don't go out of the trusted circle for something like this.

Paul the question to ask is this.  On what basis is he claiming Sarti is the shooter?  Was it the information on the Men Who Killed Kennedy? 

[Michael Walton]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Maybe not.

You may want to read this.  Oliver is fake and so is Arnold.  You have to let the hair stand up on your neck when you read these stories.  If it stands up enough for me, and from other things I read, then that's enough "proof" if someone was involved or not.  Arnold has NOT been seen in ANY photos of Dealey.  Not a one.  But if you want to think he's involved, then that's your right to do so.

Yarborough was wrong as well.  You can clearly see one guy throwing himself down in the Z film.  But obviously that was not this Arnold guy.  Witness statements and what they "saw" is one of the weakest links to the case because humans are very fallible.

Although the existence of the apparently bogus Secret Service agent had been mentioned 15 years earlier by witnesses such as the policemen Joe Marshall Smithand Seymour Weitzman (see Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.107), there is no conclusive evidence that Arnold himself was actually in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. He is not visible in any photographs or films, and none of the witnesses on the knoll mention his presence. He did, however, receive some support from Senator Ralph Yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade. Yarborough contacted the journalist Earl Golz, who had made Arnold’s story public, and told Golz that he had seen a man fall to the ground in the way Arnold had described. Yarborough may have seen Arnold, or he may instead have seen William Newman, who certainly fell to the ground close to the grassy knoll immediately after the fatal shot.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:

The information about Lucien Sarti was a deathbed confession of E. Howard Hunt.  William Harvey offered the contract to Sarti who reportedly accepted it.  If evidence requires me to actually be speaking to people and they admit it to me during that conversations, then that would be too high a threshold to surmount, not just for me but for anyone else for that matter.

What we need to be asking is, is that person who confessed what they saw or heard a credible witness?  I'll let you decide whether or not Sarti was a shooter or a figment of E. Howard Hunt's imagination.

Rich,

The issue is this -- E. Howard Hunt was not the first one to mention Lucien Sarti in the context of the JFK Assassination.   Stephen Rivele in his documentary, namely, The Men Who Killed Kennedy (1988), said that a French convict named Christian David told him that Corsican mobster Antoine Guerini offered him the job to kill JFK, but he turned it down.  Christian David said that he later heard that Lucien Sarti accepted the contract.

It is just as likely that Howard Hunt was aware of Stephen Rivele's claims in 1988, and simply added this to his own CT.   The deathbed confession of Howard Hunt amounts to a CT -- complete with LBJ as his imaginary top of the JFK conspiracy.   Just another CT.  Of course, Hunt's CT has an extra bonus -- he was personally involved.  HOWEVER, he also admits that he was involved "on the sidelines."   

An alleged eye-witness to Howard Hunt's involvement, namely, Marita Lorenz, identifies him as a paymaster, delivering money to the low-level conspirators, led by Frank Sturgis (who was a mercenary, not a CIA officer).  So this was low-level; as Hunt confessed, "on the sidelines."   So, the rest of his CT amounts to his own guesswork.

Nobody here seriously doubts that Bay of Pigs veteran and CIA agent William Harvey hated RFK and JFK with a purple passion.  That does not prove that he was the one who hired Corsican assassins to fly to Dallas to kill JFK -- even if Corsican assassins did fly to Dallas.   Christian David said that Corsican mobster Antoine Guerini was the boss.  (And that presumes that Stephen Rivele's account is believable).

I think Cory Santos is right -- we should ask about the basis of the deathbed confession of Howard Hunt (2007) that identified Lucien Sarti as the Grassy Knoll shooter.   Did Howard Hunt get the idea from Stephen Rivele in the 1988 documentary, The Men Who Killed Kennedy? 

Finally, what does this have to do with Roscoe White?   Beverly Oliver said that she saw Roscoe White ("Geneva's husband") on the Grassy Knoll in the moments after the JFK Assassination, speaking with another DPD Officer.   Roscoe was there.

How did the shooter disappear so quickly?   The answer is simple -- wearing a DPD uniform was an instant camouflage.  You just started walking around, and no Dallas citizen would ever suspect you.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 21, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

I believe that information was on an episode of The Men Who Killed Kennedy. 

Sarti's name is nothing new.

Interesting, a person who has a heavy accent is put in Dealey Plaza and presumably interacts with Texans but no one notices or says, "hey, there was a cop on the grassy knoll who had a very strong accent."

...The problem is why would the CIA or FBI...utilize obvious shooters that stick out in the crowd?  It goes against concealment, it goes against blend in, everything that if there was a conspiracy logic dictates the conspirators would have done.  Especially when you had plenty of people close by to use.  You don't go out of the trusted circle for something like this...

Cory,

I agree with you that using foreigners goes against "concealment."   The best concealment in Dallas would be a Dallas Police uniform.   A shooter could simply stand up and start walking around, and no Dallas citizen would ever suspect him.

This also answers David Lifton's challenge to me -- how could a Grassy Knoll shooter disappear so quickly?

This also agrees Jason Ward's objection to any CIA-did-it CT -- that if the CIA really wanted JFK dead, they would never go to such dramatics as a public assassination -- they would have used one of their hundreds of spy tricks.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 21, 2018 by Paul Trejo