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Steve Thomas

Where was Bob Carroll?

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I would like to take a look at three questions. I can't say I can answer them, but I'd like to address them.

 

Many people know of Bob Carroll's role in the capture of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theater, but he also had some duties prior to that.

 

  1. What were the instructions given to the Special Service Bureau Detectives who were stationed on Main St., and who briefed them. Was this Erich Kaminsky?

  2. Where was Bob Carroll and why does he seem to be out of position?

  3. Carroll's non-role as the source of the 605 Elsbeth St. address.

 

1) Kaminsky's Role -

 

Captain Perdue Lawrence testified before the Warren Commission on July 24, 1964. He was the Captain of the DPD' Traffic Division's Accident Prevention Bureau. He was being questioned about the security measures for JFK's visit. W.P. “Pat” Gannaway was the Captain of the Special Service Bureau. During his testimony, he stressed several times that his role was to keep the motorcade flowing. Actual security being provided against threats to the President would be coming from someone else.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lawrence.htm

 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service.

 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the President?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then Chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for?
Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, these people were already meeting.

 

“I assume that some instructions have been given to some members of the CID, the criminal investigation division, and to the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. It would be my assumption that this was a part of the assignments given.”

 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190029/m1/1/

 

This memo is also in the DPD Archives JFK Collection

On December 11, 1963, Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky wrote a memo to Captain Gannaway of the Special Service Bureau. In that memo he wrote,

“Sir: On November 22, 1963, the following Special Service men where(sic) assigned to work the Presidential motorcade. All the men had assignments on Main St. The following is a list of the men and the locations they worked:

 

B.K. Carroll 1100 block Main

K.E. Lyon 1700 block Main

 

H.R. Arnold was supposed to have been in the 700 block per Kaminsky's memo. No report of his duties on the 22nd are in the DPD Archives, and he did not testify to the WC. The 700 block in Carroll's WC testimony is not a mistake, because he told WC Counsel Joseph Ball that this was three to four blocks from the intersection of Main and Houston.

Kaminskyis writing this memo to Gannaway, Gannaway was in charge of the security at the Trade Mart. Had he delegated responsibility for security on Main St. to Kaminsky? And was Kaminsky responsibe for briefing the Detectives?

 

Captain Gannaway had assigned himself to the Trade Mart.

 

DPD Archives, Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 8

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

 

2) Where was Bob Carroll?

 

When Bob Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964, he told them:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

Mr. Carroll: “Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.” On November 22nd, he was serving in the Administrative Section as shown on his after-action report in the DPD Archives.

 

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.
Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?
Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Along the curb - did you stand along the sidewalk?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.

 

Carroll was actually in a bar when he heard that JFK had been shot.

“Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it - they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office...”

He commandeered a car and went down to the TSBD where he participated in a search of the basement.

 

“The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.”

 

If Carroll had been assigned to the 1100 block of Main, why did he tell the Warren Commission he had been assigned to the 700 block? If he was assigned to the 700 block, what happened to H.R. Arnold?

Did they trade places? If they didn't, who was providing security in the 1100 block?

 

DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 28

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Memo from K.E. Lyon to Chief Curry dated December 4, 1963. Lyon was a Patrolman on TDY assignment to the Vice Section of the Special Service Bureau. However, Lyon is not listed in the patrolmen assigned to the Special Service Bureau in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002 - https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

 

On November 22, 1963 at approximately 2:00 PM, Detective B.K. Carroll and I were instructed by Lieutenant E. Kaminsky to go to the Oak Cliff area where Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot.”

K.E. Lyon was in the squad car bringing Oswald back to the station from the Theater. Lyon is listed as one of the arresting officers on Oswald's Arrest Report.

 

He's a little off on his time. By 2:00 PM, Oswald had already been arrested and brought back to the station.

 

DPD Archives, Box 3, Folder# 2, Item# 52

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm

 

Bob K. Carroll was a Detective in the Administrative Section of the Special Service Bureau. In a signed memo to Chief Curry, he wrote: “At approximately 2:00PM this date the undersigned officer were (sic) enroute to the vicinity of the 300 block of West Jefferson to aid in the search of the killer of Officer J.D. Tippit.” (Though the memo is undated, he writes “this date”, so it must have been written on the 22nd.)

 

Lyon makes the same mistake on time in his memo of December 4th as Carroll did in his memo of November 22nd. They also both spell Gerald Hill's name as “Jerry” Hill.

 

So, by 2:00PM, Kaminsky has left the TSBD where Lumpkin had stationed him at the front door collecting names, and had returned to Headquarters where he was able to instruct Carroll and Lyon to proceed to Oak Cliff. Kaminsky was reporting to Gannaway where Detectives had been placed along Main St. It was Kaminsky who Deputy Chief Lumpkin had positioned at the front door of the TSBD. It was Kaminsky who Carroll and Lyon went to when they wanted to go search for Tippit's killer. Was Kamonsky's role on the 22nd a larger one than we knew?

 

Kaminski is also the Officer who was given the jacket found by James Larue on Industrial Ave. under the Ft. Worth Turnpike. (DPD Archives Box 4, Folder# 3, Item# 26, page 3)

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm

 

 

DPD Archives, Box2, Folder# 7, Item# 12

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

 

Carroll put Oswald in car# 226.

 

From the Dallas Dispatch Tapes:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

1:53 PM:

Dispatcher: Where is he (Oswald)? Who's Got him?

550/2 (Gerald Hill): Special Service unit is with us also. We're in his car, 492. (492 is a Special Service Bureau car).

 

3) Bob Carroll's non-role in the origin of the 605 Elsbeth St. address.

 

Lieutenant Jack Revill testified before the Warren Commission on May 13, 1964. (Bob Carroll had already testified a month earlier – see below)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/revill2.htm

 

The questioning concerns a Report that Revill wrote out at approximately 3:30 to 3:35 on the afternoon of the 22nd conncerning Lee Harvey Oswald at 605 Elsbeth St.

Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me.
Mr. RANKIN. You found that out?
Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?
Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.

 

Notice the interplay between Rankin and Dulles. Dulles seems to know about the Elsbeth St. address and he wants to know how Revill knows about it.

 

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor.
Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates?
Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit.
Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address.
Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can.
Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.

 

Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour----

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant.
Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service.

 

It's Dulles, not Rankin who keeps pushing Revill where he got this address. Is Dulles concerned that Revill knew about a connection of a Harvey Lee Oswald to Elsbeth St, and how Revill would know about that? Just about the time when Revill would have revealed when he obtained this address, he is cut off.


Warren Commission Document# 948 is a memo from Sorrels to Inspector Kelley dated May 19, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344#relPageId=2&tab=page

 

In that memo, Sorrels says that Revill contacted Sorrels (it does not say how this contact was made), and said that Revill told him he got the 605 Elsbeth address orally from Bob Carroll. As the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater to the police station, Carroll allegedly looked back over his shoulder and read the address off a Dallas Public Library card that had been removed from Oswald's billfold by one of the officers in the back seat. Carroll allegedly said that he misread the number as 605 instead of 602.

 

This is six days after Revilll's WC testimony, and one month after Bob Carroll told the WC that no mention of an address had been made in the car transporting Oswald to City Hall.

 

Detective Bob Carroll's testimony before the Warren Commission April 3, 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

 

There has been some debate over the years whether the number 605 has been typed over to read 602, and I can't really answer that.

 

A copy of the Library Card can be found in CD 5, page 492.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=497&tab=page

 

 

In their after-action reports filed with Chief Curry on December 3rd, neither Caroll (DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 73), nor Detective E.E. Taylor, Special Services Bureau, Narcotics Section (DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 81) make any mention of giving Revill Oswald’s address.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

K.E. Lyon, who was also in the car transporting Oswald to City Hall in his report: Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 78 makes no mention of obtaining Oswald's address

 

Did any of Oswald's ID in his billfold have the Irving address on it?

Is Hill lying?

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."
Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.
I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.
Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address?
Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification.
One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving.
But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?
Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer.
Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station?
Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is."

 

Secret Service Report of Dallas SS Agent Robert Steuart dated November 24, 1963.

Itemizes the contents of Oswald's billfold:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&search=Oswald_billfold+contents#relPageId=220&tab=page

 

“I examined the contents of billfold which I was told was taken from Assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald.”

 

Item numbers 6&7: front and back sides of Dallas Public Library card bearing the address of 602 Elsbeth. There is nothing in those billfold contents which gives an Irving address.

 

In his after-action Report, M.G, Hall wrote that FBI Agent Manning Clements inventoried the contents of Oswald's wallet on the evening of November 22nd. On the 23rd, Clements wrote a Report detailing the contents of Oswald's wallet.

Warren Commission Document 5 page 94.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=95&tab=page

This is page 3 of Clement's Report.

A Dallas Public Library card listing the address of 602 Elsbeth.

Nothing in his billfold with an Irving address.

 

The only two accounts that put the Library card in Oswald's wallet prior to his arrival at police headquarters are erroneous.

 

In his after-action Report dated December 3, 1963, DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 4, page 2

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

 

Detective Paul Bentley wrote: “On the way to the City Hall, I removed the suspect's wallet and obtained his name.... I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Captain Westbrook's office to make a report of this arrest.”

 

There is nothing in his Report about obtaining an address. Oswald's ID immediately went to Lieutenant Baker. Where is Bentley's Report to Westbrook done on November 22nd. Was it written, or was it just an oral report? Why did he go to Westbrook to make his Report? Westbrook was in Personnel.

 

 

Gerald Hill's testimony before the Warren Commission

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.
I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.
He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.
This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself.

And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.
I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.
By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.
The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.
When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.
Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.
And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.
Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.”

 

Steve Thomas

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