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Steve Thomas

How did Hosty expect to talk to Marina?

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14 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve

 

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI.  I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. 

For Marina to marry Oswald, they needed to get special permission because he was a foreigner ... nonetheless, permission was granted in just ten days, for no less than an MVD colonel's niece marrying a U.S. defector.

Apparently the Soviet government encouraged Marina and Oswald to marry and emigrate.  

In June of 1962, Oswald with wife and a four months old child returned to the United States. Soon Lee and Marina were surrounded by a 'platoon' of Russian-speaking people (White Russians) eager to help the young couple.  

Today, it is an accepted fact that the White Russian Community in Texas was funded by the CIA through the Philadelphia-based Catherwood Foundation and the Tolstoy Foundation.  One such individual you've pointed out was Paul Raigorodsky,

 

Gene,

She didn't like the FBI, but fawned all over the Secret Service. Marguerite hated the Secret Service guys - Howard and Kunkel.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. "Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be. They process them, which means that they know all about them before they come into here I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked, rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean, that's the No. 1 stamp."

 

Do you know if the Travelers Aid Society, who met the Oswalds on their arrival in the U.S. operated under the aegis of the Tolstoy Foundation?

I have wondered why the staunchly conservative, anti-communist White Russians would take the Oswalds under their wing.

Marina, who's coming out of communist Russia, the niece of a GRU Colonel; and Lee, a pro-communist spouting defector.

Lee, I think you can write off. Somebody (I don't remember who right now) described him as a "useful idiot". I've found that to be the case wherever he went (from McVickar at the Russian Embassy, to Carlos Bringuer in New Orleans); but Marina is another story. The way I look at it, she was either totally innocent, or a very good intelligence agent.

If she was an intelligence agent, she fumbled her answers about the rifle on Neely St., the cameras she took the rifle pictures with and the Nixon episode pretty badly.

See Chapter 11 of Sylvia Meagher's, Accessories After the Fact

https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Accessories_After_The_Fact.pdf

 

Chapter 11, page 238. (p. 273 of the pdf file).

 

Steve Thomas

 

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Steve: If you play this out for a moment, the FBI presents an investigative threat (if Marina truly is operational) but the Secret Service is simply protecting a key witness/suspect (i.e. her) and presumably not as interested in her affiliations.  The guy in that picture (leaving a courthouse several yeas after she married Porter) looks seriously unhappy.

Ron: The source of allegations about her behavior in Leningrad is one Yuri Merezhinsky, interviewed by Norman Mailer for his book "Oswald’s Tale", who stated she was anything but virtuous. Robert Webster was the other defector whom she met before Oswald. George Bailey's October 2009 blog "Oswalds Mother" contains a good account ("From Marina Prusakova, With Love"). 

What doesn't compute is that she marries an oddball foreigner after knowing him for just six weeks, has a child with him, and uproots her life to move to another country where she does not speak the language or know anyone.  Somebody really wanted her to get to Irving TX ... where the Paines were patiently waiting for the young couple, having moved there from Philadelphia the exact week in September 1959 that Lee left his mother in Fort Worth and defected.

Gene

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8 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve: If you play this out for a moment, the FBI presents an investigative threat (if Marina truly is operational) but the Secret Service is simply protecting a key witness/suspect (i.e. her) and presumably not as interested in her affiliations.

What doesn't compute is that she marries an oddball foreigner after knowing him for just six weeks, has a child with him, and uproots her life to move to another country where she does not speak the language or know anyone.  Somebody really wanted her to get to Irving TX ...

Gene

Gene,

 

I agree. The FBI was a threat, I think because they were not on-board with whatever game was being played. The FBI and the CIA did not play well with each other.

The speed and ease with which the Soviet authorities allowed Marina to leave Russia surprised a lot of people. The Russians were notorious for making it difficult for Russian citizens to leave.

More than Irving, I think they wanted to get her to Fort Worth.

 

You know, what's missing in the record is any serious attempt by the U.S. authorities to interview Marina, either before or after her arrival in the U.S.

I wonder why.

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve:

In spite of our collectively continued interest in and pursuit of so many aspects of this fascinating case (ballistics, autopsy, Tippit, Oswald, the Paines, DCM and the umbrella man, Tramps, Mexico City, MSM and disinformation, certain persons of interest, Nagel, et al.), I've always thought -- maybe 'felt' is a better term -- that there are certain things that will never be uncovered or known.  As Bill Simpich characterized the title of his work, State Secrets ... things that are too sensitive and thoroughly protected, things that the country/government cannot afford to reveal.  Every so often, one asks why doesn't some new Administration or President reopen this case, and expose the truth?  The modern day agencies (FBI, SS, CIA, others) are vastly different with new leadership ... its been so many years, what's the harm in exposure? 

The background and true nature of Marina Prusakova seems to be one of them. 

Gene

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1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

 things that are too sensitive and thoroughly protected, things that the country/government cannot afford to reveal.

The background and true nature of Marina Prusakova seems to be one of them. 

Gene

Gene or anyone else for that matter,

 

Just as the "Great Game" played out between Great Britain and Russia in the nineteenth century, any ideas on what the "Game" was here?

Was the idea to turn her and send her back perhaps?

 

Steve Thomas

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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 12:13 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Two questions:

Jeanne DeM asks Marina to show her around her and Lee's apartment and after opening a closet door she sees a high powered rifle with a scope?

Marina admits it's Lee's?

Paul, is this the same rifle you claim Oswald used on Walker? If so, how did non-driving, no car owning Oswald get the rifle back home to this apartment from Walker's residence?

Obviously not on any bus night or day. Obviously not by walking home with it during the day.

Did he simply run home with this in the dark cover of night? How far away was Walker's residence from Lee's?

Simple logical question whose answer may say something about driving help?

Joe,

Lee Harvey Oswald lied continually to Marina Oswald.  This complicates her WC testimony because when she repeats what LHO told her, it is the words of LHO that are false -- not Marina's words.

For example, in no way did LHO do everything alone -- even though he told Marina that he did.   LHO had accomplices, and they obviously had cars and probably had other rifles. 

Also, as Ruth Paine herself told me, the Russian word for "buried" also means "hid.". So, readers have jumped to conclusions for the past half-century.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:41 PM, Gene Kelly said:

...Yuri Merezhinsky - interviewed by Norman Mailer for his book Oswald’s Tale - alleges that Marina was anything but virtuous, claiming she was a call girl (or a "swallow in a honey trap"),  part of a group of four people - two women and two men -  plying their trade in Leningrad.  

Merezhinsky alleges that she was promiscuous with many of his friends.  A similar story is related by James Martin, her erstwhile business manager and lover for a short time, who later told the HSCA in 1978 that he attempted to tell the Warren Commission about her background, but was interrupted by Earl Warren who ordered the stenographer to destroy the tape.  

Martin also relates that Marina understood everything said to her in English, yet she needed a Russian language translator for her WC testimony.  

No wonder that Hosty was investigating Marina and Company.  

Gene

Gene,

it is one thing to suggest that a living WC witness was a "call girl," and quite another thing to suggest  that she was a KGB spy, and quite something else again to suggest that she was directly involved in the JFK murder.

That line of thinking suggests an overbearing prejudice against Marina Oswald -- in my reading.

You say that James Hosty was "investigating" Marina and Company.   Well -- where are the results of that alleged investigation?   Where is the paperwork?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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On 1/28/2018 at 1:16 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Gene,

She didn't like the FBI, but fawned all over the Secret Service...

Steve Thomas

Steve,

This stands to reason, because the FBI came down on Marina Oswald like a ton of bricks.   FBI agent James Hosty was quick to suspect that Marina Oswald was a KGB spy -- and I have little doubt that he got that extreme opinion from General Walker, who was not only a fanatical Anticommunist, but also a closeted homosexual.

As for the Secret Service, they rescued Marina Oswald from a hostile FBI, and so obviously she would be grateful to them.

Is anyone here so jaded that they would suspect the Secret Service of protecting Marina from the FBI if they had any inkling that Marina was a KGB spy, or any hint from the CIA that she was?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Paul Trejo said, "

it is one thing to suggest that a living WC witness was a "call girl," and quite another thing to suggest  that she was a KGB spy. and quite something else again to suggest that she was directly involved in the JFK murder."

Mr. Hosty told me that he thought Marina was a sleeper agent.  He also said he didn't think LHO was smart enough to be a spy. So it might be wise to keep an open mind on this.  Just my 2 cents.

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3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Mr. Hosty told me that he thought Marina was a sleeper agent. 

Pamela,

 

I have been mulling over this for the last couple of days.

 

If Marina was sent here, do you think she was supposed to provide information to someone, or to learn something from someone?

And why were they trying to get Marina back to Russia in 1963?

I told Gene Kelly that I thought that someone;  knowing that Lee Oswald was from Fort Worth, was trying awfully hard to get Marina into the Fort Worth community. If that were the case, then why?

I find it very odd that the people who took Marina under their wing, were an ultra-right, anti-communist group.

Max Clark seems to be the first. I was reading the other day that he was employed by Convair, a division of General Dynamics as a "Supervisor of Industrial Security and Investigation."

Among the clients his law firm represented, was  CVAC Fort Worth, where he "manifested unusual interest with respect to security matters under investigation by calling for files and reading open files in the Investigation Office of CVAC..."

 

CVAC Stands for Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation. "The Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation, whose name was in the course of time changed to Convair, was an American aircraft, rocket, and spacecraft company for the design, development, and manufacturing of aerospace products. The company was formed in 1943 by the merger of Consolidated Aircraft and Vultee Aircraft, and went on to produce aircraft such as the Convair B-36 bomber, the F-102 Delta Dagger, the F-106 Delta Dart, the B-58 Hustler bomber, as well as the Convair 880 and Convair 990 jet airliners. It also manufactured the first Atlas rockets, including the rockets that were used for the manned orbital flights of Project Mercury. The company's subsequent Atlas-Centaur design continued this success and derivatives of the design remain in use as of 2017. In 1994 most of the company's divisions were sold by then-owners General Dynamics to McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair

There's a biographical rundown on Max Clark here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9836&relPageId=3

 

Ignore the 1952 disparaging remarks by an "OSI informant of known reliability", and just focus on Clark's connections.

 

When Marina took up with Ruth Paine, her husband Michael was employed by Bell Helicopter, another flight-oriented company.

 

Do you think there might be a connection in the aerospace industry?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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Just a "real world" thought here regarding Marina Oswald.

If Marina was in some way involved in a sleeper agent role, I could imagine her real life complaints to her handlers after two years of hard living with Lee Oswald.

Hey, I am tired of moving from one dumpy apartment to another ( one with cockroaches! ) in poor areas.

I'm tired of not having enough clothes or food for my baby and not even a proper bed. This guy Lee knocks me around, he's too often sullen and jealous, our sex life is lousy , we fight too often, he's into guns and cameras when we need basic living items more, he gets and leaves one low paying job after another, he can't even drive a car, my teeth need fixing, I can't smoke, I am always broke.

We are so dependent on others for basics it's humiliating, I'm forced to live with someone who I don't even like ( she reportedly didn't really like Ruth Paine ) Lee's mother is a bothersome nut case, ...comrades please!  I wouldn't have signed onto this assignment if I knew that living here would be harder and more desperate and humiliating than back home. Two years of this?

My baby deserves better.

If Marina's sleeper agent role involved going through all this, I would say this was one horrible way to attract new recruits for such assignments in the future. If there was a sinister "they" directing Marina she sure got one super lousy and depressing assignment and a quite sacrificing one for her baby's basic needs.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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7 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Just a "real world" thought here regarding Marina Oswald.

If Marina was in some way involved in a sleeper agent role, I could imagine her real life complaints to her handlers after two years of hard living with Lee Oswald.

Hey, I am tired of moving from one dumpy apartment to another ( one with cockroaches! ) in poor areas.

I'm tired of not having enough clothes or food for my baby and not even a proper bed. This guy Lee knocks me around, he's too often sullen and jealous, our sex life is lousy , we fight too often, he's into guns and cameras when we need basic living items more, he gets and leaves one low paying job after another, he can't even drive a car, my teeth need fixing, I can't smoke, I am always broke.

We are so dependent on others for basics it's humiliating, I'm forced to live with someone who I don't even like ( she reportedly didn't really like Ruth Paine ) Lee's mother is a bothersome nut case, ...comrades please!  I wouldn't have signed onto this assignment if I knew that living here would be harder and more desperate and humiliating than back home. Two years of this?

My baby deserves better.

If Marina being a sleeper agent, I would say this was one horrible way to attract new recruits for such assignments in the future. If there was a sinister "they" directing Marina she sure got one super lousy and depressing assignment.

 

BRILLIANT!!   :D

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11 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

 

I have been mulling over this for the last couple of days.

 

If Marina was sent here, do you think she was supposed to provide information to someone, or to learn something from someone?

And why were they trying to get Marina back to Russia in 1963?

I told Gene Kelly that I thought that someone;  knowing that Lee Oswald was from Fort Worth, was trying awfully hard to get Marina into the Fort Worth community. If that were the case, then why?

I find it very odd that the people who took Marina under their wing, were an ultra-right, anti-communist group.

Max Clark seems to be the first. I was reading the other day that he was employed by Convair, a division of General Dynamics as a "Supervisor of Industrial Security and Investigation."

Among the clients his law firm represented, was  CVAC Fort Worth, where he "manifested unusual interest with respect to security matters under investigation by calling for files and reading open files in the Investigation Office of CVAC..."

 

CVAC Stands for Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation. "The Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation, whose name was in the course of time changed to Convair, was an American aircraft, rocket, and spacecraft company for the design, development, and manufacturing of aerospace products. The company was formed in 1943 by the merger of Consolidated Aircraft and Vultee Aircraft, and went on to produce aircraft such as the Convair B-36 bomber, the F-102 Delta Dagger, the F-106 Delta Dart, the B-58 Hustler bomber, as well as the Convair 880 and Convair 990 jet airliners. It also manufactured the first Atlas rockets, including the rockets that were used for the manned orbital flights of Project Mercury. The company's subsequent Atlas-Centaur design continued this success and derivatives of the design remain in use as of 2017. In 1994 most of the company's divisions were sold by then-owners General Dynamics to McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair

There's a biographical rundown on Max Clark here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9836&relPageId=3

 

Ignore the 1952 disparaging remarks by an "OSI informant of known reliability", and just focus on Clark's connections.

 

When Marina took up with Ruth Paine, her husband Michael was employed by Bell Helicopter, another flight-oriented company.

 

Do you think there might be a connection in the aerospace industry?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

I keep my mind open to just about all possibilities with regard to Marina.  I really do think she may be the Rosetta stone of the assassination.  She is much smarter than most people realize and came from an  intelligence background.  

It has even occurred to me that if there is any 'logic' to Judyth Baker's being pushed onto the research community (well, they tried) by the likes of Fetzer and even Jesse Ventura, it was to take attention away frnm Marina, who by that time had recanted her original, forced, WCR apologist stance.

I also think that Ruth Paine's oh-so-helpful interest in Marina and Lee was deliberate and motivated by an agenda to make sure LHO did not escape being considered the assassin.  

I definitely think there was a connection to the aerospace industry in terms of WVB and the moon race.  

 

 

Edited by Pamela Brown

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20 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Paul Trejo said, "

it is one thing to suggest that a living WC witness was a "call girl," and quite another thing to suggest  that she was a KGB spy. and quite something else again to suggest that she was directly involved in the JFK murder."

Mr. Hosty told me that he thought Marina was a sleeper agent.  He also said he didn't think LHO was smart enough to be a spy. So it might be wise to keep an open mind on this.  Just my 2 cents.

And let us not forget that CIA counterintelligence officer Edward Clare Petty thought, based on some VENONA decrypts, that George de Mohrenschildt (born in what is now Byelorussia), was probably a long-term KGB "illegal".

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

I keep my mind open to just about all possibilities with regard to Marina.  I really do think she may be the Rosetta stone of the assassination.  She is much smarter than most people realize and came from an  intelligence background.  

It has even occurred to me that if there is any 'logic' to Judyth Baker's being pushed onto the research community (well, they tried) by the likes of Fetzer and even Jesse Ventura, it was to take attention away frnm Marina, who by that time had recanted her original, forced, WCR apologist stance.

I also think that Ruth Paine's oh-so-helpful interest in Marina and Lee was deliberate and motivated by an agenda to make sure LHO did not escape being considered the assassin.  

I definitely think there was a connection to the aerospace industry in terms of WVB and the moon race.  

 

 

Do I remember right and Marina once said "follow the money" on some show in the 90's.  Did she (maybe unknowingly) mean to the Rockefeller's  and Rothschild's? 

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