How did Hosty expect to talk to Marina?

[Joe Bauer]

20 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

 

You wrote, "As I speculated earlier, if Marina was "assigned" some type of covert role in this whole affair, the unlucky straw she pulled before hand must have been the absolute shortest."

 

I agree.

 

I don't know if she was "assigned" here or not, or if she was "assigned", who "assigned" her and for what purpose.

Nor do I know if the people who possibly "assigned" her, had any inkling what her life was going to be like.

I've just been thinking out loud.

Somebody, and I can't remember who, wrote that the Mercedes St. address was in a really crappy part of town.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve.

Just to let you know...I read everything you post. Your research postings are that intriguingly interesting and thought provoking.

Your Revolt Of The Colonels thread especially .

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 4:37 AM, Pamela Brown said:

I had not heard that.  Do you have a cite for that?  Interesting...

Still no.  But I've been looking.  Turns out Marina is a Hero. She survived.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Gene Kelly]

Paul:

I would point you to the Forum thread “Programmed to Kill: Lee Harvey Oswald, the Soviet KGB, and the Kennedy Assassination”, started by John Simkin in February 2011.   That thread points to several books, one in 2007 by Ion Mihai Pacepa, “Programmed to Kill” and another in 2008 by Ludvík Zifčák, "We Killed Kennedy".   A review performed by Robert Buchar calls out the reference (on page 157 of the Zifcak book) to the allegation that Marina's stated jobs in health care (hospital, pharmacy) were a cover, and that she was an office clerk in the GRU.  

Regards,

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

Steve:

I appreciate your feedback, but would admit that I actually know very little about either Marina or James Hosty.   What little I can find out about James Hosty leads me to believe he didn't much subscribe to anything beyond the storyline published in the Warren Report.   Perhaps he was being loyal to his Agency (in spite of his disciplinary treatment) and not wanting to rock the boat. 

Marina is an entirely different subject for discussion and speculation.  Its interesting that, in Agent Fain's September 1961 FBI report, he refers to Marina as an "orphan" and also cites her occupation as "nurse".  After consideration of the 2007-2008 books by the Romanian and Czech authors - Ion Mihai Pacepa, “Programmed to Kill: Lee Harvey Oswald, the Soviet KGB, and the Kennedy Assassination” and Ludvík Zifčák, "We Killed Kennedy" - it got me thinking more broadly.  These books do seem to have the flavor of disinformation about them. However, what if (for discussion purposes) Marina was KGB  ... and this is a counterintelligence chess game (with Angleton and Company pulling the strings) where the real "patsy" was Marina?   Her affiliation with the assassin makes the Soviets and KGB (e.g. Comrade Kostin) look complicit.   No wonder they would send false defectors like Nosenko to debunk that notion.

Gene

PS. Hosty visiting Marina (whom "they" know speaks fluent English) would then make more sense ... which is the original topic of this thread

[Paul Trejo]

On 1/30/2018 at 5:35 AM, Pamela Brown said:

Paul Trejo said, 

"It is one thing to suggest that a living WC witness was a "call girl," and quite another thing to suggest  that she was a KGB spy. and quite something else again to suggest that she was directly involved in the JFK murder."

Mr. Hosty told me that he thought Marina was a sleeper agent.  He also said he didn't think LHO was smart enough to be a spy. So it might be wise to keep an open mind on this.  Just my 2 cents.

Pamela,

It is remarkable that you interviewed FBI agent James Hosty.   I salute you for that.   I'd like to see a transcript someday, if you ever publish it.

Most readers here are probably aware that James Hosty thought that Marina was a KGB sleeper agent, because he also said that in his book, Assignment Oswald (1996).    In that book he also said he doubted that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) was smart enough to be a spy.

I believe I really do have an open mind about this matter -- and yet I find too many reasons to doubt James Hosty based on his own words.   For example, he was aware about LHO's activities in Mexico City before anybody else involved in the JFK saga -- including the scandal that LHO had met KGB assassin, Valeriy Kostikov.   

This was confidential CIA information -- and part of the Top Secret CIA Mole Hunt that Bill Simpich catalogs in his free eBook on the Mary Ferrell website, namely, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014).    Yet James Hosty in his own book, claims that he was aware of it only days after it happened.

Can anybody doubt that James Hosty was really tracking LHO, and not Marina Oswald, for much of 1963?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 8, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Robert Harper]

On 2/3/2018 at 6:36 AM, Ron Bulman said:

By Dulles and he you mean de Mohrenschildt?

I wonder if they had ever met previously?

Yes. After I read about de Mohrenschildt in Bruce Adamsons series, I returned to this chapter which I first read when it came out.The links  "go back four decades." Dulles was Standard Oil's lawyer and negotiated for access to Russian oil with a Baron Sergius von Mohrnschildt. There is a brother academic and George becomes a geologist. Much overlapping in the decades following. The Warren Commission discussed George's"overlapping relationships with the Kenndy/Bouvier family, as well as the Oswald family, but never addressed any overlap with the Dulles family. Or the Bush family.

The former Netherlands East Indies - now Indonesia - had a LOT of oil. So did Iraq. Rockefeller interests expressed by lawyers at Sullivan and Cromwell like the Dulles brothers, made it seem that it was in America's interest to overthrow governments in each place.One brother ended up as Secretary of State; the other as  Director of CIA.

 Lee Harvey Oswald's buddy, George, was in a quid pro quo relationship with he CIA over a long period of time. The day he was made aware  of having to testify to the HSCA, he either killed himself or someone killed him.

 

[Gene Kelly]

DeMohrenschildt’s previous wife in Philadelphia, Phyllis Washington, worked for Radio Free Europe in the early fifties. His brother Dimitri von Mohrenschildt, described by the CIA as being "employed in a confidential capacity by the U.S. government," is said to have been one of the founders of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty. These connections are a link between Cord Meyer and de Mohrenschildt (Ref. William Kelly 2011). He was subjected to five separate investigations by intelligence during the 1940s and 50s, and could not gain security clearance for OSS work. After the United States entered the war, George Von Mohrenschildet (and apparently his brother) changed their names to de Mohrenschildt, so they would not be viewed as German. De Mohrenschildt had previous experience as a CIA contact for a New York lawyer named Herbert Itkin, knee-deep in anti-Duvalier politics ... he had been introduced to Itkin by none other than Allen Dulles.  In 1954, a young oil lawyer named Herbert Itkin arranged a meeting in Philadelphia with Allen Dulles.  Dulles set him up with a meeting with de Mohrenschildt, who told Itkin he was "from that man in Philadelphia" and that his name was Philip Harbin. William Gaudet provided an HSCA deposition that he knew George under his alias as Philip Harbin (De Mohrenschildt's wife, Jeanne, was from Harbin, China). CIA Director Richard Helms later testified that the agency’s “initial interest” in George de Mohrenschildt was because he had been a petrochemical consultant with the ICA, which became part of the Agency for International Development (AID) in 1961.

In the early 1960’s, de Mohrenschildt was part of Clint Murchison’s interests in Haiti, and became involved in oil transactions with the dictator Papa Doc Duvalier. A former CIA agent, Herbert Atkin, revealed that Mohrenschildt’s activities in Haiti were actually a cover for his intelligence-gathering operation for the CIA’s attempt to overthrow Duvalier.  In May of 1963, he arranged a meeting between Clemard Charles, who grew hemp in Haiti, and Army Intelligence. In 1967, Charles was later connected with a CIA/Haitian Cuban Exile plot to invade Haiti from Florida, a sequel of sorts to the Bay of Pigs. In May 1963, an order was issued for the Ambassador of Haiti to be recalled to Washington, D.C.  Just two days after the meeting, an unnamed “charge” is sent to Haiti, purportedly to attend Duvalier's self-coronation.  Just four days later (one month to the day after the phony staged attempted "kidnapping" of Duvalier's children), Ambassador to Haiti Thurston is recalled to Washington for "consultation," leaving the U.S. Embassy in Haiti in control of the Charge d'Affaires (Thurston was not returned to Haiti).  And just four days after that, DeMohrenschildt arrived in Dallas, hastily packed up his belongings, and tore off to Haiti, arriving on Sunday, 2 June 1963. The U.S. Embassy in Haiti now was in control of the unknown Charge d'Affaires.

When de Mohrenschildt moved to Haiti, he remained there for over four years. He and other investors had set up an industrial development enterprise whose work was to include conducting a geological survey of Haiti to plot out oil and geological resources on the island. After the assassination, he returned to The de Mohrenschildt’s later left Haiti in 1967 and returned to Dallas four years after the assassination, to testify before the Warren Commission.  HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi noted that in late 1963, several large deposits popped up in de Mohrenschildt's Haitian bank account including one for $200 thousand dollars from a Bahamian bank. This occurred when de Mohrenschildt and one Clemard Joseph Charles, proprietor of the first independent commercial bank in Haiti were supposedly running a sisal plantation, a derelict operation they never went near.

In author Dick Russell’s words: “Like Fitzgerald's Gatsby, Baron George Sergei de Mohrenschildt was borne back ceaselessly into the past’. Intrigue and oil were the two constants in the Baron's life. He was an emigrant son of the Czarist nobility who spoke five languages fluently and who, during the Second World War, was rumored to have spied for the French, Germans, Soviets and Latin Americans. The Warren Commission took 118 pages of his testimony to satisfy itself of de Mohrenschildt's benign intent. De Mohrenschildt moved in both European high society and the American underworld, and would have made a splendid character in a Graham Greene novel. 

[Joe Bauer]

51 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

DeMohrenschildt’s previous wife in Philadelphia, Phyllis Washington, worked for Radio Free Europe in the early fifties. His brother Dimitri von Mohrenschildt, described by the CIA as being "employed in a confidential capacity by the U.S. government," is said to have been one of the founders of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty. These connections are a link between Cord Meyer and de Mohrenschildt (Ref. William Kelly 2011). He was subjected to five separate investigations by intelligence during the 1940s and 50s, and could not gain security clearance for OSS work. After the United States entered the war, George Von Mohrenschildet (and apparently his brother) changed their names to de Mohrenschildt, so they would not be viewed as German. De Mohrenschildt had previous experience as a CIA contact for a New York lawyer named Herbert Itkin, knee-deep in anti-Duvalier politics ... he had been introduced to Itkin by none other than Allen Dulles.  In 1954, a young oil lawyer named Herbert Itkin arranged a meeting in Philadelphia with Allen Dulles.  Dulles set him up with a meeting with de Mohrenschildt, who told Itkin he was "from that man in Philadelphia" and that his name was Philip Harbin. William Gaudet provided an HSCA deposition that he knew George under his alias as Philip Harbin (De Mohrenschildt's wife, Jeanne, was from Harbin, China). CIA Director Richard Helms later testified that the agency’s “initial interest” in George de Mohrenschildt was because he had been a petrochemical consultant with the ICA, which became part of the Agency for International Development (AID) in 1961.

In the early 1960’s, de Mohrenschildt was part of Clint Murchison’s interests in Haiti, and became involved in oil transactions with the dictator Papa Doc Duvalier. A former CIA agent, Herbert Atkin, revealed that Mohrenschildt’s activities in Haiti were actually a cover for his intelligence-gathering operation for the CIA’s attempt to overthrow Duvalier.  In May of 1963, he arranged a meeting between Clemard Charles, who grew hemp in Haiti, and Army Intelligence. In 1967, Charles was later connected with a CIA/Haitian Cuban Exile plot to invade Haiti from Florida, a sequel of sorts to the Bay of Pigs. In May 1963, an order was issued for the Ambassador of Haiti to be recalled to Washington, D.C.  Just two days after the meeting, an unnamed “charge” is sent to Haiti, purportedly to attend Duvalier's self-coronation.  Just four days later (one month to the day after the phony staged attempted "kidnapping" of Duvalier's children), Ambassador to Haiti Thurston is recalled to Washington for "consultation," leaving the U.S. Embassy in Haiti in control of the Charge d'Affaires (Thurston was not returned to Haiti).  And just four days after that, DeMohrenschildt arrived in Dallas, hastily packed up his belongings, and tore off to Haiti, arriving on Sunday, 2 June 1963. The U.S. Embassy in Haiti now was in control of the unknown Charge d'Affaires.

When de Mohrenschildt moved to Haiti, he remained there for over four years. He and other investors had set up an industrial development enterprise whose work was to include conducting a geological survey of Haiti to plot out oil and geological resources on the island. After the assassination, he returned to The de Mohrenschildt’s later left Haiti in 1967 and returned to Dallas four years after the assassination, to testify before the Warren Commission.  HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi noted that in late 1963, several large deposits popped up in de Mohrenschildt's Haitian bank account including one for $200 thousand dollars from a Bahamian bank. This occurred when de Mohrenschildt and one Clemard Joseph Charles, proprietor of the first independent commercial bank in Haiti were supposedly running a sisal plantation, a derelict operation they never went near.

In author Dick Russell’s words: “Like Fitzgerald's Gatsby, Baron George Sergei de Mohrenschildt was borne back ceaselessly into the past’. Intrigue and oil were the two constants in the Baron's life. He was an emigrant son of the Czarist nobility who spoke five languages fluently and who, during the Second World War, was rumored to have spied for the French, Germans, Soviets and Latin Americans. The Warren Commission took 118 pages of his testimony to satisfy itself of de Mohrenschildt's benign intent. De Mohrenschildt moved in both European high society and the American underworld, and would have made a splendid character in a Graham Greene novel. 

George DeM...what a background story.

How many people actually get a personal old friend to old friend response back when they write to the head of the CIA "George Bush?"

 

[Gene Kelly]

Joe:

If you dig into the machinations going on in May 1963, it appears that a covert operation was being run in Haiti, and JFK was being kept in the dark and allegedly "played' by the CIA and his own national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy.

In November 1976, DeMohrenschildt was committed to a mental institution in Texas for three months, and a notarized affidavit (by his wife) lists four previous suicide attempts. In the affidavit she stated that George suffered from depression, heard voices, saw visions, and believed that the FBI and the 'Jewish Mafia' were persecuting him.  In early 1977, Dutch journalist Willem Oltmans brought George to Europe to negotiate book and magazine rights to his story. Oltmans later claimed that DeMohrenschildt wandered off while in Brussels, and disappeared. In March 1977, de Mohrenschildt re-surfaced in the United States. As the story goes, on March 29^th George visited his sister in law in Manalapan, Florida, where his daughter was staying (the reason for his visit).  While he was there, George agreed to conduct an interview with journalist Edward Epstein for a feature story to be published in Reader’s Digest.  

Epstein - suspect by many researchers as a close associate of James Angleton - propagates and embellishes the legend of the Walker shooting and the celebrated backyard photograph of Oswald in his writings.  The "third backyard photograph" was allegedly found by George in a piece of luggage which he had left in storage during his 1963-1967 absence in Haiti.  The photograph (with Cyrillic handwriting on the back and an inscription addressed to George) shows Oswald in a similar pose to that in WC exhibit CE 133A, but with both arms held higher. Epstein employed a handwriting expert who identified the inscription as Oswald's writing, and concluded the printing on reverse side was consistent with Marina's handwriting. This enabled a conclusion that De Mohrenschildt had been given this incriminating photograph before the assassination. His wife Jeanne later told the HSCA that she had never seen the photo before, and believed it was planted in their belongings while they were traveling in Haiti.  Epstein wrote about George’s death:

The news came as a shock. I had been in the midst of a four- day interview with De Mohrenschildt, for which I had agreed to pay him a $4,000 "honorarium." I had never before paid anyone for an interview, but De Mohrenschildt had had an extraordinary relationship with the subject of my book, Lee Harvey Oswald. I had reason to believe that he might have been in a position to cast light on Oswald's prior entanglement in the web of intelligence services. He had been, as far as I was concerned, a man of considerable mystery. Even his date of birth—"1911," on one passport, "1914" on another— was in doubt. He had emigrated from Russia via various European countries to the United States in May 1938, and claimed such diverse occupations as insurance salesman, film producer, journalist and textile salesman. In addition, British intelligence suggested that he may have been working for German intelligence.

On the day of George’s death, HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi had called and left his card – because de Mohrenschildt was apparently ready to talk.  After George's untimely (and inexplicable) suicide, Epstein flew out of Palm Beach before Fonzi could locate or question him.  Fonzi had this to say about the suicide death:

On the day of George’s death, Gaeton Fonzi had called and left his card – because de Mohrenschildt was apparently ready to talk.   Fonzi had this to say about the suicide death:

Certainly, it seems that his death was the work of those who wanted to prevent him from telling what he knew. The House Committee was getting started again. He was being asked, I believe, to begin another role in his relationship to the assassination and his testimony before the Warren Commission.  Just before he committed suicide, he was taken to Belgium by a foreign journalist. He was, I believe he felt he was, being set up. He was supposed to have a meeting with a KGB official, I believe, but he ran away. He came back to Florida.  He believed he was being set up to make it appear that there was a link between him and the KGB ... and then obviously a link between Oswald and the KGB, because of his link to the KGB. And then, Epstein shows up ... and once again, spends a whole afternoon with him at a hotel in Palm Beach.

While the HSCA investigation was ongoing, Angleton manipulated several episodes that seemed to extend the cover-up of his own connections with Oswald. The first concerns the creation of the book "Legend" by Epstein. Written exactly at the time of the HSCA inquiry, this book serves to confuse the public about who Oswald really was, and to portray him as a Russian agent being controlled by deMohrenschildt.  At the same time, George was being hounded by Dutch journalist Willem Oltmans to "confess" his role in the assassination ... which he refused to do. In George’s absence after his death, Oltmans came forward with the sensational allegation that de Mohrenschildt had admitted serving as a middleman between Oswald and a plot involving Texas oilmen, anti-Castro Cubans, and elements of the FBI/CIA.

Gene

 

[Gene Kelly]

Joe:

I revised this post to add some additional information. If you dig into the machinations going on in May 1963, it appears that a covert operation was being run in Haiti, and JFK was being kept in the dark and allegedly "played' by the CIA and his own national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy.

In November 1976, DeMohrenschildt was committed to a mental institution in Texas for three months, and apparently he had four previous suicide attempts. In a notarized affidavit, his wife stated that George suffered from depression, heard voices, saw visions, and believed the FBI and 'Jewish Mafia' were persecuting him. In early 1977, Dutch journalist Willem Oltmans brought George to Europe to negotiate book and magazine rights to his story. Oltmans later claimed that DeMohrenschildt wandered off while in Brussels, and disappeared. In March 1977, de Mohrenschildt re-surfaced in the United States. As the story goes, on March 29^th George visited his sister in law in Manalapan, Florida, where his daughter was staying (ostensibly the reason for his visit).  While he was there, DeMohrenschildt agreed to conduct an interview with journalist Edward Epstein for a feature story to be published in Reader’s Digest.    

Epstein - suspect by many researchers as a close associate of James Angleton - embellished the legend of the Walker shooting and the celebrated backyard photograph of Oswald in his book “Legend” and his writings.  The "third backyard photograph" was allegedly found by George in a piece of luggage which he had left in storage during his 1963-1967 sojourn in Haiti.  The photo (with Cyrillic handwriting on the back and an inscription addressed to George) shows Oswald in a similar pose to that in WC exhibit CE 133A, but with both arms held higher. Epstein employed a handwriting expert who identified the inscription as Oswald's writing, and concluded the printing on reverse side was consistent with Marina's handwriting. This enabled a conclusion that De Mohrenschildt had been given this incriminating photograph before the assassination. His wife Jeanne later told the HSCA that she had never seen the photo before, and believed it was planted in their belongings while they were traveling in Haiti.  Epstein wrote this about George’s death:

The news came as a shock. I had been in the midst of a four- day interview with De Mohrenschildt, for which I had agreed to pay him a $4,000 "honorarium." I had never before paid anyone for an interview, but De Mohrenschildt had had an extraordinary relationship with the subject of my book, Lee Harvey Oswald. I had reason to believe that he might have been in a position to cast light on Oswald's prior entanglement in the web of intelligence services. He had been, as far as I was concerned, a man of considerable mystery. Even his date of birth—"1911," on one passport, "1914" on another— was in doubt. He had emigrated from Russia via various European countries to the United States in May 1938, and claimed such diverse occupations as insurance salesman, film producer, journalist and textile salesman. In addition, British intelligence suggested that he may have been working for German intelligence.

On the day of George’s death, HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi had called and left his card – because de Mohrenschildt was apparently ready to talk.  After George's untimely (and inexplicable) suicide, Epstein flew out of Palm Beach before Fonzi could locate or question him.  Fonzi had this to say about the suicide death:

Certainly, it seems that his death was the work of those who wanted to prevent him from telling what he knew. The House Committee was getting started again. He was being asked, I believe, to begin another role in his relationship to the assassination and his testimony before the Warren Commission.  Just before he committed suicide, he was taken to Belgium by a foreign journalist. He was, I believe he felt he was, being set up. He was supposed to have a meeting with a KGB official, I believe, but he ran away. He came back to Florida.  He believed he was being set up to make it appear that there was a link between him and the KGB ... and then obviously a link between Oswald and the KGB, because of his link to the KGB. And then, Epstein shows up ... and spends a whole afternoon with him at a hotel in Palm Beach.

While the HSCA investigation was ongoing, Angleton manipulated several episodes that seemed to extend a cover-up of his own connections with Oswald. The first concerns the creation of the book "Legend" by Epstein, written at the time of the HSCA inquiry, which serves to confuse the public about who Oswald really was, and to portray him as a Russian agent being controlled by deMohrenschildt.  At the same time, George was being hounded by Dutch journalist Willem Oltmans to "confess" his role in the assassination ... which he refused to do. In George’s absence after his death, Oltmans came forward with the sensational allegation that de Mohrenschildt had admitted serving as a middleman between Oswald and a plot involving Texas oilmen, anti-Castro Cubans, and elements of the FBI/CIA.   As an aside, none of these intrigues and obvious disinformation schemes could have been orchestrated by the Mafia, Cuban intelligence or the Radical Right.  

Gene

 

[Paul Brancato]

Gene - during DeM Haiti period he had a meeting, I think in DC, with Charles and some CIA and other bigwigs. Do you recall this? The subject was sisal, but I think that’s a cover. Two cryptonym CIA were there - DUBRINY 1 and 2. DUBRINY 1 was later identified as Thomas Devine. Ya think 2 was George Bush (of the CIA)?

[Gene Kelly]

Paul:

God only knows ... seems to me that George (the Baron, not Bush) was being set up as another "patsy", and was ultimately sacrificed by Dulles.  If I were the Judge/Jury, I'd arrest Dulles and his minions (including Bush Sr. who was up to his ears in bay of Pigs).  Gaeton Fonzi noted that in late 1963, several large deposits popped up in de Mohrenschildt's Haitian bank account including one for $200 thousand dollars from a Bahamian bank. This occurred when de Mohrenschildt and Clemard Charles were supposedly running a sisal plantation, a derelict operation they never went near.  This sort of intrigue is covered/obscured forever, and wont ever be unraveled (imho).

Gene

[Paul Trejo]

On 2/8/2018 at 7:31 PM, Gene Kelly said:

Paul:

God only knows ... seems to me that George (the Baron, not Bush) was being set up as another "patsy", and was ultimately sacrificed by Dulles.  If I were the Judge/Jury, I'd arrest Dulles and his minions (including Bush Sr. who was up to his ears in bay of Pigs).  Gaeton Fonzi noted that in late 1963, several large deposits popped up in de Mohrenschildt's Haitian bank account including one for $200 thousand dollars from a Bahamian bank. This occurred when de Mohrenschildt and Clemard Charles were supposedly running a sisal plantation, a derelict operation they never went near.  This sort of intrigue is covered/obscured forever, and wont ever be unraveled (imho).

Gene

Gene,

Occam's Razor explains the mystical life of George De Mohrenschildt by his own words.   He was an oil exploration engineer, and the Haiti deal was the biggest deal of his lifetime.   

Note that $200,000 in 1963 is two million dollars in today's money.   George would have been a millionaire, instead of living on his wife's inheritance, as he did (since otherwise he was merely a geology professor, and professors don't usually make much money).

Because of the 1964 scandal that erupted when he was named as a personal friend of Lee Harvey Oswald -- GEORGE EVENTUALLY LOST HIS HAITI CONTRACT.    This was especially painful during the 1968 Jim Garrison hearings and subpoenas.   His family left him.  George was broke.   He was suicidal for years.   The 1978 demand by the HSCA to interrogate him again was the last straw.  He wrote his final testament and committed suicide.   It was all too much.

Think of it.  George was born filthy rich in Russia.   Then the Communists took all of it.   Then he tried to get his ancestral Estate back by supporting the Nazi invasion of Russia.   Because of the ferocious way the Nazis treated ordinary Russians, George and his brother then turned on the Nazis and helped the USA.   His brother came to the USA first, and was very successful.   George came later, and was not very successful.   

He was a college professor -- sure -- but he was used to MUCH MORE.   He hoped to become rich again.   He promised his wife and kids he would become rich again.   They believed in him.  He would have done it too -- if it had not been for his stupid seven months with Lee Harvey Oswald (September,1962 through March, 1963) and his pushing Lee to assassinate General Walker.   If only he had kept his big mouth shut!   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 10, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Joe Bauer]

Paul, in a general way I agree with some of your George DeM personal and social life speculations.

So much of his motivation in life seemed to be mainly regaining the rich life he once had with all it's indulgences , accessories and social status and which he lost, and was losing more of every few years as he was getting older.

Beautiful homes, cars, first class travel and dining on a whim, high society activities with beautiful people, especially women. Providing your children with anything they need to have a similar life. Connections to other wealthy people which only secures this even more.

Once you've lived this level of indulgence ( it is like a drug ) and you are used to it, losing it probably feels as bad and hard as withdrawals from any powerful feel good drug like heroin.

Woody Allen made a film a few years ago "Blue Jasmine" that is centered around this specific theme of wealthy persons losing their wealth and how devastating this is to them...to the point of suicide.

In the case of the main character of "Blue Jasmine" ( Cate Blanchett ) after she lost her personal wealth, she ended up being one of those poor crazy people who sat in public places talking to themselves.

That devastation of one's self-perception and esteem and motivation and purpose in life,  after living a wealthy life style for many years and then losing it all and having to live like everyday working class citizens or worse...is a very real thing.

Look at all the wealthy Cubans that Castro threw out and who had to live middle to low income lives here in America. Silvia Odio's family for example.

They were enraged the rest of their lives over this great injustice! And they would have done just about "anything" to regain the wealthy status they once had. They dream about the good old days and about how they can get it all back. That was often their main after wealth life obsession and motivation.

So this losing wealth syndrome is real and powerfully effecting and happens all the time and George DeM suffered greatly from it's effects in his final days which IMO wouldn't make purposeful suicide an unlikely scenario in his death.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Paul, in a general way I agree with some of your George DeM personal and social life speculations.

So much of his motivation in life seemed to be mainly regaining the rich life he once had with all it's indulgences , accessories and social status and which he lost, and was losing more of every few years as he was getting older.

Beautiful homes, cars, first class travel and dining on a whim, high society activities with beautiful people, especially women. Providing your children with anything they need to have a similar life. Connections to other wealthy people which only secures this even more.

Once you've lived this level of indulgence ( it is like a drug ) and you are used to it, losing it probably feels as bad and hard as withdrawals from any powerful feel good drug like heroin.

Woody Allen made a film a few years ago "Blue Jasmine" that is centered around this specific theme of wealthy persons losing their wealth and how devastating this is to them...to the point of suicide.

In the case of the main character of "Blue Jasmine" ( Cate Blanchett ) after she lost her personal wealth, she ended up being one of those poor crazy people who sat in public places talking to themselves.

That devastation of one's self-perception and esteem and motivation and purpose in life,  after living a wealthy life style for many years and then losing it all and having to live like everyday working class citizens or worse...is a very real thing.

Look at all the wealthy Cubans that Castro threw out and who had to live middle to low income lives here in America. Silvia Odio's family for example.

They were enraged the rest of their lives over this great injustice! And they would have done just about "anything" to regain the wealthy status they once had. They dream about the good old days and about how they can get it all back. That was often their main after wealth life obsession and motivation.

So this losing wealth syndrome is real and powerfully effecting and happens all the time and George DeM suffered greatly from it's effects in his final days which IMO wouldn't make purposeful suicide an unlikely scenario in his death.

Joe,

I'm glad you can see the plausibility of the biography of George DeMohrenschildt (DeM) from his own WC testimony, and from his manuscript, "I'm a Patsy!" (1978), as well as from his best biographer, Bruce Adamson (1998).

I hope you can eventually see the folly of the imaginary, speculative lives of George DeM by various CIA-did-it CTers.

Yes, the Cuban Exiles had similar stories -- and for some of them it ended in tragedy -- but for those who survived that era, many of them enjoy more wealth -- and more freedom -- just by living in Miami, Florida.

Back to George DeM.   He would not be very interesting to history except for his personal relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald during 1962-1963.   The most important incident regarding that relationship is the alleged shooting at General Walker -- and the new Backyard Photograph that George DeM produced for the HSCA in 1977.   What a blockbuster.

Yet before he would testify for the HSCA, he committed suicide.   What a loss for history.   The solution to the JFK Assassination seems to have died with him.  He knew far more than he ever told, even in his 1978 manuscript.   He never believed Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone to kill JFK.  Never.  This is what he told the WC, and this is what he repeated at social parties in Haiti, and this is what he repeated I his 1978 manuscript.

He knew the players in Dallas -- very, very well.   But instead of telling the truth, he took the easy way out.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 10, 2018 by Paul Trejo
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