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David Josephs

DVP - why didn't one of the many US Postal informants in Dallas report the rifle delivery?

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All thru 1963 Oswald's mail was being monitored and reported upon by numerous USPS informants

Dallas T-1, for example was Dorothy Xxxxxx, Info. clerk U.S. Post Office, Forth Worth, Tex.
New Orleans T-1 Joseph J. Xxxxx Postal Inspector New Orleans, La.

 

David,

How is it that the FBI is not made aware of the delivery of not only a 5' carton from Klein's with a rifle in it, but a REA package from Seaport with a pistol in it? 

Are we saying that the Dallas Postal-related informants simply missed the largest package ever sent to the man, as well as him picking it up.  Same problem with REA.

Why doesn't a single report prior to 11/22 show the FBI is aware of what Oswald received in the mail?

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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David J.,

I think you (like many CTers) expect way too much efficiency from Government employees. (Similar to the efficiency you seem to expect from the post office clerks in Dallas, none of whom could recall handing Oswald his rifle package in March of '63---which is expecting way too much from a clerk many months after the transaction.)

Addendum....

Here's a related discussion re: the rifle purchase from April of last year....

DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

I'm curious Dave... all the FBI reports between March 1963 and Nov 1963 and not one mention of a rifle... or Judyth Baker for that matter... both figments of an overactive imagination. The FBI does not mention a rifle during that time because there was no rifle to talk about...

Prove otherwise.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers:

1. All (or most) of the "Waldman Exhibits" that are available in Volume 21 of the WC volumes.

2. Commission Exhibit No. 773.

3. The backyard photographs (which show Oswald with a rifle and a pistol).

4. 6 HSCA 146 (verifying the legitimacy of the backyard photos).

5. Marina Oswald's testimony where she talks about seeing the guns Lee owned.

6. Marina Oswald's testimony where she admits that she herself took the backyard photographs.

7. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's testimony where she states that she saw a rifle in the closet of Lee Oswald's apartment on Neely Street in Dallas....

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

8. The testimony of William J. Waldman, in which he testified that Klein's definitely did ship the C2766 Carcano to Oswald's post office box in Dallas in March of '63.

9. The handwriting on both the money order (CE788) and the order coupon and envelope for the rifle purchase (CE773). That handwriting and handprinting was positively identified as the writing of LEE HARVEY OSWALD by multiple handwriting experts for the Warren Commission and the HSCA. But CTers want to now pretend that all of those experts got it wrong (or were just flat-out lying, take your pick).

So, as we can see, there is ample proof to show that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well).

Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1241.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-935.html

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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uh, you're not listening Dave....  everything you offer above comes AFTER 11/22. 

We certainly agree that Oswald was being watched, his mail was being opened, his whereabouts determined by change of address forms and mail delivery as informed by Postal assets.

Please provide any proof the FBI was aware that Oswald was sent a rifle from Kleins prior to Nov 22, 1963 - since you claim a 5' carton arrived at the Dallas GPO addressed to HIDELL with the Oswald PO Box.   How did the FBI and its network of informants miss that one?

We all know about the BS the FBI produced after the fact.... what I want to know from the most devout LNer is how did Oswald receiving this rifle NOT get reported upon until after Nov 22 given all the Postal assets they had in New Orleans, Chicago, Ft Worth and Dallas

:huh:

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Read the first line of my previous post again, David....

"I think you (like many CTers) expect way too much efficiency from Government employees."

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1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

Read the first line of my previous post again, David....

"I think you (like many CTers) expect way too much efficiency from Government employees."

It was a 5 foot carton from Kleins addressed to the wrong person's PO Box.   They knew he was getting the WORKER just not a rifle from Kleins which required a variety of steps to pick up.

Not once from April 1 thru Nov 22 did a single government source declare that Oswald had a rifle...  even after the Walker shooting.
 

Yet the man accused of being his CIA handler and his wife are the sources - again, after the fact - that Oswald had a rifle that no one else sees... ever.

And your reply about the efficiency of FBI informants, when mountains of info that YOU use comes from these assets regarding virtually every aspect of Oswald's life... just not the receipt of a scoped rifle... rings hollow Dave.  

The FBI and its assets were efficient enough on so many other fronts....  these informants - if you've read thru their reports - provide detailed info on so much minutia and inconsequential things...    less than 2 weeks before the Walker shooting Oswald supposedly buys and receives a scoped rifle - yet not a single FBI asset is aware of this.

Kinda like the 25 FBI informants in Mexico also not being able to find any evidence of Oswald in Mexico....

:up

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21 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

It was a 5 foot carton from Kleins addressed to the wrong person's PO Box.   They knew he was getting the WORKER just not a rifle from Kleins which required a variety of steps to pick up.

Not once from April 1 thru Nov 22 did a single government source declare that Oswald had a rifle...  even after the Walker shooting.
 

Yet the man accused of being his CIA handler and his wife are the sources - again, after the fact - that Oswald had a rifle that no one else sees... ever.

And your reply about the efficiency of FBI informants, when mountains of info that YOU use comes from these assets regarding virtually every aspect of Oswald's life... just not the receipt of a scoped rifle... rings hollow Dave.  

The FBI and its assets were efficient enough on so many other fronts....  these informants - if you've read thru their reports - provide detailed info on so much minutia and inconsequential things...    less than 2 weeks before the Walker shooting Oswald supposedly buys and receives a scoped rifle - yet not a single FBI asset is aware of this.

Kinda like the 25 FBI informants in Mexico also not being able to find any evidence of Oswald in Mexico....

:up

Life's a real bitch sometimes, ain't it?

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Life's a real bitch sometimes, ain't it?

 

Only for you LNers out there.... 

:cheers

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But it must be a much bigger bitch for you CTers, seeing as how you guys have absolutely no physical evidence of any conspiracy whatsoever. That must be really frustrating for the dedicated Anybody But Oswald faithful. (God bless 'em.) :P

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Just now, David Von Pein said:

But it must be a much bigger bitch for you CTers, seeing as how you guys have absolutely no physical evidence of any conspiracy whatsoever. That must really suck. (God bless you.) :P

 

Seems you've missed you meds again today Dave....

The Evidence only shows a conspiracy... that's where your house of cards blows away. 

Everything you cite as supporting evidence standing all by itself is rendered moot once you try and Authenticate the evidence... (look it up)

Without Authentication, what you and the WCR offer is worthless.  WITH authentication we find the evidence only illuminates the conspiracy to kill JFK and pin the blame on a patsy.

Kinda simple if you're not blind

 

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On three separate occasions that I have found, Marina says that the Oswalds were living on Neely Street in January, 1963.


 

(1) Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm


 

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.


 

(2) During her testimony on February 4th, Marina was asked and answered:

 

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?
Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.


 

(Ruth Paine testified that she met Marina on February 22nd.)

 

(3) Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII

Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445).

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

 

This is cross referenced to DL 100-10461 (4)

 

On February 17, 1964 Marina was interviewed by FBI Special Agents Anatole Boguslav and Wallace Heitman. In their writeup of that interview done on the 18th, they wrote:

 

“She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963 at the Neely Street address, he, (Lee Harvey Oswald) was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day.”

(page 443 of CD 735).

 

For whatever reason, this conflicts with the official record as we know it.. Supposedly the Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.

CE 1404 - FBI reports dated February 22 and 25, 1964, of interviews with Marina Oswald (CD 735, pp. 446-453).

 

On February 18, 1964 she was again interviewed by Agents Boguslav and Heitman. She told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. The Agents wrote a Report of this interview on February 22, 1964.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

(This is on page 446 of CD 735)

 

Steve Thomas

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Things never stop bursting forward in this case do they?

But remember, its an open and shut case as far as the late Vince Bugliosi declared in his book RH.  Which DVP was praising two years before it was published.

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Really great work there Steve....

I'm trying to make the point that the FBI had informants telling them about Oswald's postal situations

CI NO T-1 is giving us info in July '63 about where he lives, where he gets his mail and subsequently in this same report it talks of mail and its contents to and from the FPCC...

 

img_10413_3_300.png

And here not 3 weeks after supposedly receiving said rifle we are told again of mail to and from FPCC.  As we can see, Confidential Informants were talking about Oswald not long after returning from Russia in June 1962.

img_10412_3_300.png

There are no reports of a rifle prior to Nov 22 since there was no rifle ordered or sent to Oswald prior to Nov 22 or ever.

#43 is dated Aug 1962   #44 is dated March 25th and talks about what he receives in the mail.  #45 is dated August 9 and is related to his arrest in New Orleans

First - it's hard to believe that there was nothing between Aug 16, '62 and March 25 '63 and then again until Aug 9 '63.
Second - by March 25 or a few days after GPO Dallas receives the rifle, supposedly puts a postcard into Oswald's box (doesn't exist) for him to pick up the package (not remembered by anyone).  

 

 

img_1134_830_200.jpg 

img_1134_835_200.jpg

 

 

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David- your argument that we expect too much efficiency from government employees is a Trojan Horse. First, as an environmental attorney, I work with many very professional and diligent government. employees. Second, you are using painting with broad strokes with wide brushes.  there are obviously unmotivated government employees who are just putting in time waiting for their pensions. but we are talking about employees who were working with intelligence officials to help protect the country. i doubt these individuals who be so casual and inattentive to avoid a rifle being delivered to a former defector and subscriber to communist publications.

I'd even give you one pass on the pistol. but to expect both shipments to not draw attention really pushes the limits of credulity. 

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To emphasize the visibility of Oswald's Dallas postal box, Marina listed P.O. Box 2915 as her new mailing address in a letter to the Soviet Embassy December 31, 1962.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=513&tab=page

I believe Hosty would claim that a source inside the Dallas Post office helped him locate the Oswalds on Neely Street.   There wasn't a change-of address form created for this address that could be accessed, but Marina did map it out in a letter to Ruth Paine dated March 4, 1963. Otherwise hard to determine how informant inside Post Office could have that information:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=107&tab=page

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53 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

To emphasize the visibility of Oswald's Dallas postal box, Marina listed P.O. Box 2915 as her new mailing address in a letter to the Soviet Embassy December 31, 1962.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=513&tab=page

I believe Hosty would claim that a source inside the Dallas Post office helped him locate the Oswalds on Neely Street.   There wasn't a change-of address form created for this address that could be accessed, but Marina did map it out in a letter to Ruth Paine dated March 4, 1963. Otherwise hard to determine how informant inside Post Office could have that information:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=107&tab=page

Jeff,

 

In his WC testimony, Hosty said that he got the Neely St. address from the postal authorities on the same day he went to visit the Oswalds at their Elsbeth St. address, March 11, 1963.

Mrs. Tobias said that she evicted them on March 3rd, so the Oswald's would had to have filed something between the 3rd and the 11th; although Mr. George said he took $60.00 in rent from Oswald on March 2nd, so LHO was looking for another place before Mrs. Tobias evicted them on the 3rd.

Like you say, without a change of address form, it's hard to know how the postal authorities would know this.

 

Steve Thomas

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