Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Sanders, where are you?

[Andrej Stancak]

This thread aims to analyse the locations of two ladies, Sarah Stanton and Pauline Sanders, on the top landing of the Depository doorway. One of the findings presented here was posted earlier in “Oswald leaving TSBS?” thread on November 10, 2017. However, I have added some more research since, and amended few details mentioned in the original post. Therefore, I start with the finding of a short lady in the east part of the doorway which was first mentioned in the main Prayer Man thread on November 10, 2017.

You can read a more detailed account of this research on my blog: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/

The short lady who stood on the top landing can be seen towards the end of Darnell film in frame #20130908-003922:

 

The next figure presents a zoomed and enhanced view of the person standing in the east part of the doorway. This picture was first posted in "Oswald leaving TSBD?" thread last November.

 

The presence of the lady is obvious from the enlarged picture. It was a short person, a Caucasian, and stood in the shadow and very close to the glass door. The body height of this person was estimated by aligning Darnell still #20130908-003922 with a 3D model of the doorway made in Sketchup program. The dimensions of the doorway in the model rely on measured dimensions of the doorway except for the depth of the doorway. The depth of the doorway was set to 3’8’’ in this analysis.

The next figure shows the alignment of the doorway with the 3D models with all occupants included. It is an overlay of the original Darnell still and the 3D model at a blending of 75%.

 

 

 

 

 

After aligning Darnell still and the model, it is possible to measure the body heights of all figures. This is what the next figure shows. It is a zoomed view of the doorway with four manikins representing Prayer Man, Buell Wesley Frazier, Bill Shelley and the unknown person. The newly disclosed person measured 4’11’’ and it could only be a woman, actually a woman of sub-average body height. The average body height of women born in the 20^th of last century would be 63’’. The average body height of men born in the 20^th of the last century (measured in 1963) was 68’’. Thus, the person seen in Darnell’s still was a woman, a quite a short woman.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Andrej Stancak
typos

[Andrej Stancak]

The location of the other of the two missing ladies is a bit trickier to demonstrate. Mr. Alistair Briggs, who was keenly interested in identifying the two missing ladies in pictures and films while he was around, correctly wondered if the ladies could have been in plain sight from the beginning. Indeed, they could. I hope that Alistair will have a chance to read and comment.

The other missing lady can be seen in any of the better versions of Altgens6. The figure below shows Robert Groden’s enhanced version of Altgens6. A face can be seen in the space between Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley. 

The red line in the bottom right panel delineates the face of a so far unaccounted person standing on the top landing. It can also be seen in the version of Altgens6 purchased from the Associated Press:

 

The face of a person standing behind Billy Lovelady is delineated with a red line in the bottom middle panel. Obviously, the owner of this face stood on the top landing close to Bill Shelley and just behind Billy Lovelady. This person was shorter than Bill Shelley but tall enough to be able to peek over Shelley’s right shoulder.

The real challenge is to find out if both newly disclosed persons standing on the top landing would be also seen in the company of Prayer Man. The frame #20130908-003922 shows the short lady standing in the east part of the doorway and Prayer Man close in the west part of the doorway. Can we find a human form in the space surrounding Mr. Shelley’s right shoulder which space would be at or close to the spot occupied by this person in Altgens6?

The next picture shows a zoomed view of the top landing with Buell Frazier, Bill Shelley and the short lady standing in the east part of the doorway (top panel). The bottom panel is an enhancement of the same picture.

 

The presence of a person standing behind Bill Shelley can be inferred from the light blob as if attached to Shelley's right face. Maybe a better separation of Shelley's and another face is offered in the next picture because it says what in the white, burnt out blob is Bill Shelley's face and what belongs to a different face.

 

 

The body height of this new person was again reconstructed using a 3D model of the doorway. The body height of this person according to the present analysis was 5’4’’. This body height would quality this person for a comparatively tall lady. The body height obviously allowed this lady to peek over Mr. Shelley’s right shoulder. More importantly, this tall lady can be seen in the same frame in which both the short lady and Prayer Man can be seen. The reconstruction of the body heights of Prayer Man, Bill Shelley, Buell Frazier, the short lady and the new person is shown here:

Edited February 1, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

As a bonus, please find here different views of the Depository doorway with all occupants as seen in frame #20130908-003922. First, a view matching quite well the view of Darnell's camera:

 

 

And a southwest view:

 

Followed by a top view:

 

And a view through the glass door:

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

The question of identities of the two ladies can only be speculated, however, there are no doubts in my mind that the two newly disclosed human figures on the top landing are the two missing ladies, Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders.

Here is a paragraph from my blog post at https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/ :

“If we interpret the witness testimonies literally, the shorter of the two ladies standing close to the glass door in the east part of the doorway would be Mrs. Sanders. Mrs. Sanders reported that she has stood "in the last line of spectators nearest to the door" in the east part of the doorway [3] which would suit better the shorter of the two ladies. Mrs. Sanders saw Mrs. Stanton as standing the closest to her which matches the reconstructed doorway scene (Figure 10). The taller of the two ladies would then, logically, be Mrs. Stanton. Her location at the center-east part of the top landing would corroborate the testimonies of Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Frazier. Mr. Frazier reported that Mrs. Stanton has stood next to him [6-7] and that he had changed words with her [7]. Indeed, the taller of the two ladies was Mr. Frazier's closest neighbour on the top landing in Darnell film (Figure 10).

Quoted footnotes:

[3]  The FBI report on Mrs. Pauline Sanders, Commission Exhibit 1434, 11/24/1963: "She said on the morning of November 22, 1963, she went outside to watch the Presidential parade at about 11:25 a.m. She said she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building. She advised she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the Presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building but she did not observe him any further and could not state where he went in the building. ... She advised that she did not pursue the matter any further and she entered the building within five minutes of the blast. She said she did not observe Oswald in the lobby but the lobby was crowded with people at this time."

[6]  From Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony in Clay Shaw trial, February 13, 1969, New Orleans, Louisiana:

Q: Mr. Frazier, do you recall who you were with during the presidential motorcade?

A: Yes, sir, I can. When I was standing there at the top of the stairs I was standing there by a heavyset lady who worked up in our office, her name is Sara, I forget her last name, but she was standing right there beside me when we watched the motorcade.

Q: Do you recall anyone else who may have been with you?

A: Right down in front of me at the bottom of the steps my foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were standing there.

[7] From the interview with Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier for the Sixth Floor Museum, dated August 27, 2013 (33'50'').

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.”

 

[Mark Knight]

A very interesting study.

[Andrej Stancak]

Mr. Gary Murr kindly sent one more sketch of the depository doorway with invaluable information about the depth of the Depository doorway. Gary's contribution is highly appreciated as until today we all have only guessed what could the depth of the top landing be. If I read the sketch correctly, the depth of the top landing was 3'9''.

In the context of the work presented in my earlier posts, no revision is needed because the estimated (3'8'') and the measured (3'9'') values different only by 1 inch. This small difference could not affect the findings or the figures. 

Credit: Gary Murr, February 3, 2018. The sketch was made by the FBI agent Brent Hughes on December 5, 1963.

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/1/2018 at 12:17 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

The question of identities of the two ladies can only be speculated, however, there are no doubts in my mind that the two newly disclosed human figures on the top landing are the two missing ladies, Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders.

Here is a paragraph from my blog post at https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/ :

“If we interpret the witness testimonies literally, the shorter of the two ladies standing close to the glass door in the east part of the doorway would be Mrs. Sanders. Mrs. Sanders reported that she has stood "in the last line of spectators nearest to the door" in the east part of the doorway [3] which would suit better the shorter of the two ladies. Mrs. Sanders saw Mrs. Stanton as standing the closest to her which matches the reconstructed doorway scene (Figure 10). The taller of the two ladies would then, logically, be Mrs. Stanton. Her location at the center-east part of the top landing would corroborate the testimonies of Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Frazier. Mr. Frazier reported that Mrs. Stanton has stood next to him [6-7] and that he had changed words with her [7]. Indeed, the taller of the two ladies was Mr. Frazier's closest neighbour on the top landing in Darnell film (Figure 10).

Quoted footnotes:

[3]  The FBI report on Mrs. Pauline Sanders, Commission Exhibit 1434, 11/24/1963: "She said on the morning of November 22, 1963, she went outside to watch the Presidential parade at about 11:25 a.m. She said she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building. She advised she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the Presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building but she did not observe him any further and could not state where he went in the building. ... She advised that she did not pursue the matter any further and she entered the building within five minutes of the blast. She said she did not observe Oswald in the lobby but the lobby was crowded with people at this time."

[6]  From Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony in Clay Shaw trial, February 13, 1969, New Orleans, Louisiana:

Q: Mr. Frazier, do you recall who you were with during the presidential motorcade?

A: Yes, sir, I can. When I was standing there at the top of the stairs I was standing there by a heavyset lady who worked up in our office, her name is Sara, I forget her last name, but she was standing right there beside me when we watched the motorcade.

Q: Do you recall anyone else who may have been with you?

A: Right down in front of me at the bottom of the steps my foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were standing there.

[7] From the interview with Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier for the Sixth Floor Museum, dated August 27, 2013 (33'50'').

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.”

 

Andrei,

Excellent work but I have one small correction.

The woman wearing all white on one of the lower steps actually has her left arm wrapped around the right arm of the woman to her left, and is physically urging her up the steps.

--  Tommy 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Andrei,

Excellent work but I have one small correction.

The woman wearing all white on one of the lower steps actually has her left arm wrapped around the right arm of the woman to her left, and is physically urging her up the steps.

--  Tommy 

 

No she doesn't, she rushes past

At 40 secs in.

Btw that looks like a coat and not an above the knee skirt. Gets quite wide while going up those steps. And from earlier frames it appears that the garment she is wearing ends below the knee.

 

And Shelley was nowhere on those steps Andrej. The person on top you have marked is Molina who is wearing a white shirt and not a jacket. Williams was gone as well.

Nor is that guy talking to the women going up the stairs Lovelady.

I suggest you amend your drawing and add the 5 women on the bottom of the East side. That is besides Stanton, Sanders, Dean and Reese. Those 5 women were not on the stairs in Wiegman they all arrived after the shooting.

In Altgens6 there is no one standing between Shelley and Lovelady. It is physically impossible and that tiny snippet you point out shows nothing that resembles a human.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

No she doesn't, she rushes past

At 40 secs in.

Btw that looks like a coat and not an above the knee skirt. Gets quite wide while going up those steps. And from earlier frames it appears that the garment she is wearing ends below the knee.

 

And Shelley was nowhere on those steps Andrej. The person on top you have marked is Molina who is wearing a white shirt and not a jacket. Williams was gone as well.

Nor is that guy talking to the women going up the stairs Lovelady.

I suggest you amend your drawing and add the 5 women on the bottom of the East side. That is besides Stanton, Sanders, Dean and Reese. Those 5 women were not on the stairs in Wiegman they all arrived after the shooting.

In Altgens6 there is no one standing between Shelley and Lovelady. It is physically impossible and that tiny snippet you point out shows nothing that resembles a human.

 

Bart, 

With all due respect, if you'll watch a blown up GIF of the woman in white in slow motion, you'll see that she pulls the other woman's right arm up a little as she ascends one step.

--  Tommy 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Andrei,

Excellent work but I have one small correction.

The woman wearing all white on one of the lower steps actually has her left arm wrapped around the right arm of the woman to her left, and is physically urging her up the steps.

--  Tommy 

 

Hello Thomas:

I also thought for a while that the lady in white had her arm wrapped around the lady in dark. However, then I viewed several previous and subsequent frames and it turned out that the lady in white was in constant motion, she did not stop or slow down. Instead, the lady in dark does not seem to be moving up the steps. Still, I modeled in one of the working versions of the scene exactly the situation with the arms of these two ladies inter-twined. The problem was that the head of the lady in white, in that case, was too close to the head of the other lady and the scene did not hold when overlayed. I can have a look if I maintained the version with the two ladies close to each other with their arms intertwined, however, I usually overwrite imperfect versions because of the disk space.

Thanks for looking through my posts and for your comment. 

[Thomas Graves]

55 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Hello Thomas:

I also thought for a while that the lady in white had her arm wrapped around the lady in dark. However, then I viewed several previous and subsequent frames and it turned out that the lady in white was in constant motion, she did not stop or slow down. Instead, the lady in dark does not seem to be moving up the steps. Still, I modeled in one of the working versions of the scene exactly the situation with the arms of these two ladies inter-twined. The problem was that the head of the lady in white, in that case, was too close to the head of the other lady and the scene did not hold when overlayed. I can have a look if I maintained the version with the two ladies close to each other with their arms intertwined, however, I usually overwrite imperfect versions because of the disk space.

Thanks for looking through my posts and for your comment. 

Andrej,

That's because the woman on the left is still talking with the man in front of her.  Her friend in white is trying to get her to come up the steps with her.

--  Tommy 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

3 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

And Shelley was nowhere on those steps Andrej. The person on top you have marked is Molina who is wearing a white shirt and not a jacket. Williams was gone as well.

Nor is that guy talking to the women going up the stairs Lovelady.

I suggest you amend your drawing and add the 5 women on the bottom of the East side. That is besides Stanton, Sanders, Dean and Reese. Those 5 women were not on the stairs in Wiegman they all arrived after the shooting.

In Altgens6 there is no one standing between Shelley and Lovelady. It is physically impossible and that tiny snippet you point out shows nothing that resembles a human.

Hello Bart:

it has been only about 30-40 seconds after the last shot when the doorway scene seen in Darnell was filmed. Almost all the players are still in the doorway. If anything like that (an assassination) happens, people are in the state of shock and, unless feeling a threat to their lives, they just stay frozen. Under the shelter of the doorway, the people there stared at the direction of the Tripple Underpass and did not need to throw themselves on the ground or flee. Some doorway occupants, sooner or later, moved to a better spot or even left the doorway but it was maybe still after a while. Carl Jones stood in the lower west corner and I cannot see him in the scene, so he may have left which was easy for him as there was no one in front of him obstructing his moves. Billy Lovelady moved a step or two down and to the west. He was constantly on the move, so he went closer to the spot which allowed him to view the events on Grassy Knoll/Tripple Underpass. His space was filled with Buell Frazier who moved a step or two forwards. Maddie Reese appeared to step up few steps. Mr. Williams still stays where he was in Altgens6, he only switched arms - he was shielding off his eyes with his right arm in Altgens6 and with his left arm in Darnell. His shirt is a long-sleeved shirt, unlike Mr. Molina's shirt which was a short-sleeved one. Mr. Molina stepped down one step in Darnell which allowed to see the short lady in the east part of the doorway. 

This long comment wants to say that there was no reason for Mr. Shelley to run away from the doorway just yet. He is still there almost at the spot he had occupied in Wiegman and Altgens6. It is is a man showing the same body height in Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell, and he wore a suit. There was only one person in the doorway in the suit - this one depicted in my model is him. He stood close to the edge of the top landing, and therefore only the lower part of his face is illuminated. This is also seen in Altgens6. I am aware that my reconstructions may cause ripples in some theories, however, this is the strength (and the risk as well) of photographic data - they always beat the self-reports which may be tainted by memory lapses, emotions etc. The timing reports given by witnesses during the shooting is sometimes difficult to accept.

Mr. Molina is in my view the man visoring with both arms connected in front of his head, the one with a white short-sleeved shirt. 

As far as other ladies are concerned, I did not find it necessary to add still more people. I have no idea about their clothes and believe that they actually did not stand on steps. I cannot see how adding other people who were close to the doorway would help the case. Of course, it would be nice to model the whole Dealey Plaza!

Your comment on Altgens6 is interesting. The point is that the light object is just too large to be a continuation of Billy Lovelady's face, and too large to be just a photographic artifact. If you would think it was an artifact, could you find a similar artifact in Altgens6 which would be at the level of human heads? However,  I understand fully that resolving geometrically the Altgens6 scene is very difficult. It is the last task in the sequence of my project: the next will be Wiegman, and then only Altgens6. Altgens6 was shot with a telephoto lens from quite a long distance. The doorway is a small section in that photograph, however, we view it enlarged as if it was shot from just a few feet distance. The geometry we expect to see in a standard photograph does not apply in Altgens6, and things which appear impossible can actually be possible. That said, I understand fully your comment about the geometric impossibility of an extra person to be between Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley. 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Bart, 

With all due respect, if you'll watch a blown up GIF of the woman in white in slow motion, you'll see that she pulls the other woman's right arm up a little as she ascends one step.

--  Tommy 

She does not, merely a figment of your imagination Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

20 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

She does not, merely a figment of your imagination Tommy

Bart,

With all due respect, you're full of beans, dude.

A severe case of wishful thinking on your part.  (One of the worst I've ever seen, in fact.)

--  Tommy 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

No Andrej you are wrong.

First of all the timing.

Wiegman got out before the 3rd shot. He also captured the back of the limo before it went through under the underpass.

So you can roughly time it from the moment he gets out until he starts filming the Hesters.

In Couch you can see Wiegman in the distance filming them!

That way you are closer to 20 seconds than anything higher. My take is roughly 13 seconds!

Bakers distance to ride his bike to where he dropped it was minimal. I go into greater depth in the new update of my 2FLRE paper.

Robin Unger posted a GIF of Wiegman that shows that Lovelady moves downward and no he does not change into blondie talking to those women coming up. Only speculation supports this assertion.

 

They are gone!

Carl Edward Jones moves forward to the sign post, this can be seen in Darnell and Couch.

 

And no Williams left, he is nowhere to be seen check all his statements.....he went up to the 4th fl.

Nor is there anyone standing in front of Molina, the guy with the pot belly and hand shielding himself from the sun is gone. That is Williams.

I feel like I am going back in circles here, this has already been discussed 

Molina, who wears a shirt, is the one left on the landing.

So your drawing is wrong, get rid of Shelley and turn him into Molina.

Sanders is nowhere to be seen so far. Yet we have 5 women on the steps as a group. Some of them are still making their way up those steps to stand there in the Darnell segment of Prayer Man.

 

Believe what you wish to believe, but I say you are misguided and dead wrong. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Bart Kamp