Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Sanders, where are you?

[John Butler]

More musings:

What Bart Kemp says on his website confirms what I saw when working with witness statements trying to determine where the presidential vehicle was when the witness heard shots.  Essentially, FBI reports are not that reliable.  I tried working with only what a witness said on 11-22-63 and maybe a day or so later.  I felt these were the most reliable.  If a witness made more than one statement to the FBI it seemed that those statements evolved toward the “official version” of the assassination in the WC report.  Many witnesses claimed their statements were changed.

Jim Hargrove in A simple question to James DiEugenio makes a similar charge by noting that the FBI omitted or ignored statements if they varied from the official script.  Watch the video in his post.

It is the other side of the argument and those who support the WC version I find unfathomable.  I just wish I was wordsmith enough to say what Jim DiEugenio said in the same post. 

In this post DiEugenio says:

“Francois,

Yes there are.  But why should I share them with you?

You and DVP and the Arizona lawyer (who, thank God, is not here anymore) are so invested in the WC at a metaphysical, psychological, and emotional level, that it really does not matter how much evidence I, or anyone else, produces.  Which is why none of you would ever pass muster to be on a jury in this case, since normal terms of argument and ratiocination are foreign to your makeup. In fact, the other jurors would probably ask the judge to remove you.”

What I find that is appalling is the willingness by these folks to invent and manufacture data or simply deny or ignore what should be plainly understood or seen in your argument.  

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Well, I fully agree that the FBI statements taken from the immediate witnesses to the President's killing were not truthfull. Besides Mrs. Stanton's relatives, we have now another confirmation by the daughter of Judith McCully. The real whereabouts of Lee Harvey Oswald were effectively blurred allowing for the second floor encounter of Lee Oswald and Officer Baker..

[Guest]

With the discovery that Judith McCully was on the 4th floor, it is safe to assume that the 5 women on the bottom steps of the front steps of the TSBD at the lower east part are the of the group of women that stood 30 ft in front of it in Wiegman. And some of that group were also making their way up on the west side. No Gloria Calvery malarky just pure common sense.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

Bart:

I do not know how many of the ladies standing in front of the building were able to get to the steps of the doorway in some 15 seconds. A chance is that they stood there on the lower steps all right during the shooting but could not be captured in Altgens6 or Wiegman. 

Did you consider that the figure labelled "Sarah Stanton" in your image may actually be the man (Joe Molina in my view) who was shielding his eyes with both arms in Altgens6, Wiegman, and Weaver and possibly only with his right arm in Darnell? This person was clearly a step up about 14-15 frames before the frame you analysed.  Prior to the frame with Mrs. Sanders, there are frames which are very blurred at that spot and the man may have stepped down one step (and this is the reason why Pauline Sanders can be seen in one of the last frames - this man's arm does not obstruct any longer the view of that particular at which Pauline Sanders is seen). I studied this part of the image for a long period of time, and what appears to be a person with burnt out face and light-coloured hair I interpret as a bent forearm of the man seen 14-15 frames (less than 1 second) ahead. Of course, I can be wrong.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

The 5 ladies cannot be seen in Wiegman, they arrived and stood there only in Darnell.

Molina stands on the landing in his white shirt. Sanders to his left and Stanton two steps down. A short, heavy set and blonde lady. Who else is a  blonde in that whole group? It is quite possible she moved down a bit to get a better view, as Ruth Dean could have blocked it..... or try and see more in the distance through the clutter of people.

Stanton was short and you can see how much so as she just about sticks above the new group of ladies standing way below her.  It is only a few steps to go from the top landing and down there, perfectly feasible to me.  

Frazier's 2013 interview is useless btw it does not help to determine her exact spot while all this happened besides her standing east, and at no time west!  Something Doyle just constantly fails to comprehend.

One more time then....

Frazier's (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H336-341) (When asked who was with him on the front steps when the shots were fired) "Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton and right behind me..."

Clearly there is someone else standing there in the shadows behind Lovelady who is not Shelley or the heavy-set lady Sarah Stanton. Of course, Warren Commission counsel quickly changes the subject before Lovelady may continue.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Stanton was short

Bart:

Sarah Stanton was 5'4''-5'6'' and this body height corresponded to a tall lady back in 1963. Mrs. Stanton's body height is known from the interview with her relatives and from the comparison of her figure with the figure of her son Larry. Larry was 6'-6'1'' and Mrs. Stanton reaches to the level of Larry's nose. The distance between the top of the head and nose in someone who is 6' is 7''. Thus the best approximation of Mrs. Stanton body height is 5'5'', falling into the middle of the 5'4''-5'6'' interval conferred by Mrs. Stanton's relatives.

I wonder who was the man shielding his eyes with both arms in Altgens6, Wiegman and Weaver, and with his right arm in Darnell. This man never stood on the top landing in any of these documents and he was in the east side of the doorway. To understand the blurry pictures of this sort, one needs to follow the dynamics of a person's location and posture over the films and pictures. This man did not evaporate in Darnell, or did he?

[Guest]

That is Otis Williams, and he left straight after Wiegman, hence him not being there in Darnell.

He took the back stairs up to the 4th floor,.

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/otis-williams/

Edited December 4, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

23 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is Otis Williams, and he left straight after Wiegman, hence him not being there in Darnell.

He took the back stairs up to the 4th floor,.

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/otis-williams/

Miss Hine's testimony for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? 
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. 
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? 
Miss HINE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. Who were they? 
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir. 

[John Butler]

Your attempt to identify people and their location would be a lot easier if there were other films and photos.  Camera Car #1, the National Motion Picture Cameras, had Weigman in it.  What happened to the John Hofan film?  The Thomas Craven film?  The Cleveland Ryan film?  and the Thomas Atkins film?  The men did not film or is there some film or photo associated with them?

There were photographers in Camera Car #2, the National Still Cameras.  What happened to the Clint Grant photos?  The Cecil Stoughton photos?  The Arthur Rickerby photos?  The Henry Burroughs photos? 

Camera Car #3 was the Local Cameras.  We have Dilliards photos.  We have a Darnell film.  We have a Couch film.  Nothing from Jackson or Underwood? 

Has anyone ever wondered why these people in these cars didn't produce more film and photos than they did?  What were they doing there if not to film and photograph?  Taking a joy ride, maybe?

My answer is that it creates the problems that you are struggling to answer.  It creates an analysis that is always going to be arguable. 

This is a problem created by the people in government (FBI, Secret Service, and CIA) who seized and altered the visual records of Dealey Plaza.  If you go through the extant visual record you will find over 30 unknown photographers on Main, Houston, and Elm.  Many of these people are taking photos of the passenger side of the presidential limousine.  In reality we only get to see the Skaggs version and the Zapruder version of the passenger side of the presidential limousine once the vehicle moves unto Houston and later Elm Street.

To me one of the great mysteries of Dealey Plaza is why people haven't picked up on this over the years.  The visual record like the record of witness testimony has been tampered with by government officials. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by John Butler

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Miss Hine's testimony for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? 
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. 
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? 
Miss HINE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. Who were they? 
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir. 

Bottom line is that he went back inside pretty quick.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

Bart:

why do you believe the FBI report such as this? Mr. Williams was "advised" by the FBI to say some nonsense to create a complete havoc in testimonies. The reason for creating this mess was to ensure that no reconstruction of Lee Oswald's movements was possible. "Immediately" is a vague term. It may have appeared immediately to Mr. Williams but it lasted a minute or two until he headed back to the building. The low credibility of witness testimonies and their vagueness is the reason for looking closely on the photographs such as Darnell. If you would analyse Darnell carefully, you would see a man standing close to the central railing and shielding his eyes with one arm (Mr. Williams) and another man also wearing a white shirt and also shielding his eyes and standing few feet to the east relative to Mr. Williams. This man was Joe Molina, the same man visoring with both arms in Altgens6. Mr. Molina wore a short-sleeve shirt, Mr. Williams had a long-sleeve shirt.

Fifteen seconds after the last shot, the time when Darnell recorded the Depository, is a very short time. The cars very moving fast in direction to Tripple Underpass, people were screaming, running in different directions. Why would anyone want to leave the doorway right away. Maybe first ovecoming the shock and seeing what comes next. This is what the doorway occupants did during the first 15 seconds. While you may say that this is a speculation, the photographs do not lie. It requires time and effort to understand the assassination photographs and I do not assert that I understand every single bit. 

This is snapshot of my work aimed at proving the presence of Mrs. Stanton in Altgens6. As promised in this thread in January, I made this reconstruction but the final touches are missing. This particular image refers to the reconstruction of Mr. Shelley's figure, however, Mr. Williams and Mr. Molina are seen well in this reconstruction. Mr. Molina stands on the second step and Mr. Williams on the third step in Altgens6. A = Mr. Shelley. B. Zoomed view of Altgens6 composite. C. The 3D model of the doorway showing Carl Jones, Bill Shelley, Mrs. Reese, Mr. Williams and Mr. Molina. D = overlay of B and C proving the match betwen the model and Altgens6.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

Andrej,

 

I not only posted the FBI report, I also posted the police report, I could have added CE1381 as well.

Your post is filled with beliefs yet you have nothing to back that up with. Dingo Doyle does this as well and you do not want to be lumped into the same category as him.

Darnell shows there is no one in front of Molina who stood on the landing, and I have already mentioned before that you are horribly wrong when it comes to this. As with Shelley's and Lovelady's presence. You are way of the mark.

Let it go dude.

[Andrej Stancak]

Bart:

I wonder where does your bitter tone come from. I am surely not the one who just says that some person in Darnell or in any other picture is this or that. I am actually the one who tries to bring as much empirical support as possible to name the doorway occupants.

I see you would not like to analyse Darnell's still to check if two men shielding their eyes and both wearing white shirts can be found in Darnell. Please find here  Darnell still with rough contours of the two men. Their arms speak the most. The man delineated with red is Otis Williams, the one I already showed in Altgens two posts back. Mr. Williams changed arms earlier (already seen in Wiegman)  as he used his right arm in Altgens6 and his left arm in Darnell. Mr. Williams also stepped up one step during the period separating Altgens6 and Wiegman. The other man delineated with blue lines is Joe Molina, the man shielding his eyes with both arms in Altgens6.

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Robin Unger]

Hughes frame:

Looks like Otis Williams standing next to Carl Jones and Roy Lewis on the concrete island. ?

[John Butler]

Here is something I noticed while looking at Robin Unger's Hughes frame.  Maybe he can sharpen and clear these frames from Hughes.

Is this Oswald or Lovelady and does this have any relevance for the location of either?  It looks like another Doorway Man controversy.