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Andrej Stancak

Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Sanders, where are you?

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46 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

OK thanks. It certainly looks like a shirt, but I couldn't make sense of Lovelady's shoulder. I can see now where what looks like the top of Lovelady's shoulder (such as it is) is the darkness of Shelley's coat, which makes the shoulder look more straight-down than it is. 

 

Lovelady was standing like this, Ron.

41669266011_b2fbfb8da1.jpg

 

Edited by Ray Mitcham

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1 minute ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Lovelady was standing like this, Ron.

41669266011_b2fbfb8da1.jpg

 

Right. Thanks.

If I'm still around in 10 years or so, I'll probably ask the same question again.

 

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1 minute ago, Ron Ecker said:

Right. Thanks.

If I'm still around in 10 years or so, I'll probably ask the same question again.

 

I hope I'm still around to answer, Ron.😀

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1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is William Hoyt's Shelley's shirt Ron

Bart is right in my opinion, the difference between what is Billy Lovelady's left shoulder and Bill Shelley's right shoulder/shirt is a bit smeared. However, what puzzles me and what took me already two weeks to figure out is Lovelady's right shoulder which looks unusually high relative to his left shoulder. However, it seems to be all right like this, people can lift their right shoulders during leaning like that. The figure below is a snippet of my analysis illustrating two solutions for Billy Lovelady's right shoulder. The purple line would be the course of his right shoulder which would be seen if he stood (leaned) naturally, and the green line is the line of his right shoulder which would be seen if he lifted his shoulder with some effort. Both shoulder locations are possible anatomically.

lovelady_angles.jpg?w=1700

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Colorizing it helps delineate the people....(see below)

Wesley simply must be to Shelley's left behind the yellow...  as he says below... he was deep enough that the sun was blocked by the roof

I found the almanac for that day in Dallas to place the sun in the correct spot....  does anyone else find it interesting that the tree's shadow doesn't appear to extend towards the doorway...

964860415_TSBDdoorway-shadowanalysis-forposting.jpg.468605d7e8aacd452ba7525c84b40159.jpg

Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there. 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember? 
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name. 
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there. 
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail. 
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here. 
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir. 
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there. 
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier. 
Mr. FRAZIER - O.K. 
Mr. BALL - In the picture that would show you about there, would it? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, was standing right in there. 
Mr. BALL - Right in there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there. 
Mr. BALL - There was a roof over your head, was there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also. 
=================

CE362 - where Frazier puts himself... the shade would not yet have gotten there...  He should be in full sun like the rest and should be towering over Lovelady if he was actually on a lower step...   Even SHELLEY is in the sun

Why is Frazier fibbing about this?

191291639_FraziermarksCE362withpositionofall3men.jpg.64e1c2d348b256303f0d4d24d5f5c5db.jpg

Shouldn't we be seeing FRAZIER then in this image as I've placed him?  There is not another step up into the building so the landing IS the top step...

As I asked - is there ANY image of Frazier on the steps prior to Darnell?  

1256771388_Altgensdoorwayblowup-colorized-whyisntFrazierintheimagelikethis.thumb.jpg.902d30eba2627fca5a5036ac640fb72d.jpg

 

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Buell Wesley Frazier, and I may be wrong, stood in front of the western door window in the shadow during the time when Altgens6 was taken. This is the reason for not seeing him in Altgens6. He remained at this spot during the period of Wiegman film and a faint contours of his figure can be seen at that spot in some of better stills. Mr. Frazier then moved towards the front of the top landing where we see him in Darnell. Mr. Frazier conferred in one of his interviews that he would not be visible in any of the pictures or films because he stood back there in the shadow. Of course, this is not what Mr. Frazier had told to the Warren Commission. However, this is not the first discrepancy between what he told the Warren Commission and what he toid in his interviews later on. What Mr. Frazier describes in his Warren Commission testimony was a badly recalled location in Darnell film - he was not on the step below the top landing but rather on the top landing in Darnell.

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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On 2/4/2018 at 3:42 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Here is the doorway scene in Darnell film with provisional name labels. At least as I understand them currently. Happy to change if we can gather convincing evidence.

all_labels.jpg?w=768

 

Andrej,

 

I do realize that this is your interpretation of a Darnell frame.

Bearing that in mind, it seems to me, given the fact that Ike Altgens' LOS in Altgens 6 was about 90° to the left of Darnell's LOS in this frame (plus the fact that Lovelady had already moved to the center hand railing at some point between the Hughes clip and Altgens' 6), that your "Stanton" would have to have been standing much farther to our right in your Darnell interpretation, above, in order to have shown up in Altgens 6 looking like a blob photographically affixed from behind to leaning-forward-at-the-center-handrailing Lovelady's left cheek, not to mention the problem posed by the fact that your blob-like "5' 4" Stanton" is not only visible peeking out from behind Lovelady like that, but is also somehow tall enough to obscure the right rear portion of 5' 8" Shelley's head.

So, even disregarding the above-mentioned LOS problem, do you think your five-four or so Stanton was sufficiently tall to lean her head forward enough, from behind Lovelady, to cover Shelley's head like that?

 

All I've tried to do, above, is to point out two problems that I discern in your analysis of "Stanton" in Altgens 6, vis-à-vis your "Stanton" in that very special Darnell frame, above.

 

Care to comment?

 

Respectfully,

 

--  TG

 

PS  Oh yeah, and the fact that Altgens' photo was shot at least a few feet below the clip that Darnell took while sitting on top of the "camera car," making "5' 4" Stanton's" blob-like, obscuring head lean even more improbable, in my humble opinion.

EDIT:  According to your overhead graphic and the abovementioned LOS problem, wouldn't your Purple Woman, as positioned in Darnell, be a much better candidate for that blob-like "growth" on Lovelady's left cheek in Altgens 6, except for the fact that you've calculated her to be only 4' 11" tall?

And what are we to make of that diagonal shadow on Shelley's head?  Isn't that being cast upon him by part of the building?  Shouldn't your "Stanton's" face be in it, too, and therefore invisible to us?

Taking into consideration all of the problematic things, above, isn't it more likely that your blob-like, omnipresent, multidimensional, shape-shifting "Sarah Stanton" in Altgens 6 is nothing but a reflection and/or a photographic "artifact" and/or ... gasp ..... Lovelady's left ear?

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

thanks for all the questions. Your questions will be answered in the overall reconstruction of Altgens6 scene. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Andrej.

 

By the way, have you ever considered doing a computer graphic of Wiegman?

 

--  TG

 

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13 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Thanks, Andrej.

 

By the way, have you ever considered doing a computer graphic of Wiegman?

 

--  TG

 

I did some reconstruction of Prayer Man in Wiegman about in 2016, however,  at that point, I was determined not to post unless the 3D model would be based on realistic, measured dimensions of the doorway. I am currently doing a limited reconstruction of one Wiegman still to understand Billy Lovelady's posture, in particular, the position of his right shoulder and right arm - this obviously cannot be done using only Altgens6. My long-term plan is to complete the analysis of Altgens6, return to the reconstruction of Prayer Man's body height in Darnell (I surely will adjust the  height of mannequin's inseam to match Lee Harvey Oswald's inseam),  to reconstruct two Wiegman's stills (one with Prayer Man having arms in front of his chest and one with his right arm lifted), and maybe to do an animation on how the doorway scene was changing over the assassination period.  I also hope to learn in the process when did  Prayer Man occur at his spot in the western part of the doorway.

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12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I did some reconstruction of Prayer Man in Wiegman about in 2016, however,  at that point, I was determined not to post unless the 3D model would be based on realistic, measured dimensions of the doorway. I am currently doing a limited reconstruction of one Wiegman still to understand Billy Lovelady's posture, in particular, the position of his right shoulder and right arm - this obviously cannot be done using only Altgens6. My long-term plan is to complete the analysis of Altgens6, return to the reconstruction of Prayer Man's body height in Darnell (I surely will adjust the  height of mannequin's inseam to match Lee Harvey Oswald's inseam),  to reconstruct two Wiegman's stills (one with Prayer Man having arms in front of his chest and one with his right arm lifted), and maybe to do an animation on how the doorway scene was changing over the assassination period.  I also hope to learn in the process when did  Prayer Man occur at his spot in the western part of the doorway.

 

Andrej,

 

Thank you for the explanation.

 

Question:  Were the doorway dimensions in Darnell as big a problem for you as they apparently are in Wiegman?



Regardless, if I remember correctly, some time ago Brian Doyle refuted your interpreting of Wiegman as showing "Prayer Man" standing with one foot on the top step by pointing out that if "Prayer Man" had stood that way in Wiegman, his left side would have been illuminated by sunlight, not unlike the left side of a reporter was in an Allen photo.

 

Would you care to comment?

 

--  TG

 

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4 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Question:  Were the doorway dimensions in Darnell as big a problem for you as they apparently are in Wiegman?

No, it was not a big problem and the reconstructed location of Prayer Man in Wiegman was the same as in Darnell, only was Prayer Man turned slightly towards his right in Wiegman. 

The reason I did not post was that since the model back then was not based on realistic measurements of the doorway but rather on estimates and inferences, I could not be certain in my results. Also, the human mannequin representing Prayer Man was only very approximate, I could not control every joint and angle of the figure as required in this reconstruction. I decided therefore that the next stage will be started only if Prayer Man can be modelled using a human modelling program (Poser 11.1), and the doorway is accurate in all aspects to 1 cm and I was not interested in posting any results obtained with old methods any longer. 

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On 4/25/2018 at 1:18 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

No, it was not a big problem and the reconstructed location of Prayer Man in Wiegman was the same as in Darnell, only was Prayer Man turned slightly towards his right in Wiegman. 

The reason I did not post was that since the model back then was not based on realistic measurements of the doorway but rather on estimates and inferences, I could not be certain in my results. Also, the human mannequin representing Prayer Man was only very approximate, I could not control every joint and angle of the figure as required in this reconstruction. I decided therefore that the next stage will be started only if Prayer Man can be modelled using a human modelling program (Poser 11.1), and the doorway is accurate in all aspects to 1 cm and I was not interested in posting any results obtained with old methods any longer. 

 

Andrej,

 

I'm a bit confused.

 

Assuming that the portal dimensions were the same for Darnell as they had been about 30 seconds earlier for Wiegman, why didn't you use the improved software program you used for your Darnell depiction to make a comparable depiction of Wiegman?

 

--  TG

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Assuming that the portal dimensions were the same for Darnell as they had been about 30 seconds earlier for Wiegman, why didn't you use the improved software program you used for your Darnell depiction to make a comparable depiction of Wiegman?

 

Because of the amount of work which is required to model each scene.

May I point out that this thread is not about depicting Prayer Man in Wiegman film. Please set up your own thread on the topic of your interest and present your view and some evidence. I have read through your games you play here.

As per Wiegman, think twice what you wish for because you may get it.

Please do not respond with another silly question and please do not respond at all unless you have anything substantial to say to the topic of this thread.

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16 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Because of the amount of work which is required to model each scene.

May I point out that this thread is not about depicting Prayer Man in Wiegman film. Please set up your own thread on the topic of your interest and present your view and some evidence. I have read through your games you play here.

As per Wiegman, think twice what you wish for because you may get it.

Please do not respond with another silly question and please do not respond at all unless you have anything substantial to say to the topic of this thread.

 

Andrej,



Since one of the purposes of this thread is to try to identify Sarah Stanton in films taken during and immediately after the assassination, I believe that what I'm posting here is on topic, in that it could help us to locate a probably average-height (5' 5" - 5' 6") Sarah Stanton in said films.

To wit:  It makes a lot more sense to me physics-wise, anatomy-wise, and context-wise that the "Prayer Man" who is visible in Wiegman and Couch-Darnell is a 5' 5" or 5' 6" person (Sarah Stanton?) who, as we can see in the Darnell clip, was standing sufficiently close to the EDIT ALERT: WEST wall and sufficiently near the top step to have his right hand (and only his right hand) in the sunlight, and who must be standing with both feet on the landing in order to look the way he looks in the frames.

Why do I say both of "Prayer Man's" feet must be on the landing?

Because in both Wiegman and Darnell, "Prayer Man's" shoulders appear to be parallel with the plane of the landing.

To say it again in a slightly different way -- even if you were to depict "Prayer Man" (and the others) as they appear in a Wiegman frame by using the new software and by using the same portal dimensions you used for the Darnell frame, it would still show that Prayer Man couldn't have been standing the way he is in your Darnell graphic in which it is obvious that in order to (rightfully-so) keep "Prayer Man's" shoulders parallel with the plane of the landing, and (wrongfully, imho) his right foot on the top step, you had to make his right leg freakishly longer than his left.

zoom_sanders_measure.jpg?w=768&h=730

 

 

 

And here's another thing:  It looks to me as though Prayer Man is turned about 70 degrees farther to his left in Couch-Darnell than he is in Wiegman, and for the life of me I can't figure out how made that pivot on just one foot.



L:  Wiegman frame
R:  Darnell frame

 

Image result for wiegman "prayer man"



--  TG

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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