Jump to content
The Education Forum
James DiEugenio

The KGB and the JFK case

Recommended Posts

Since Tommy G has been bouncing all over the forum trying to promote his KGB did it concept, why not give him his own thread?

To my knowledge, no one has proposed this since Epstein in Legend, which we all know was  done in cooperation with Angleton.

Even there, Epstein kind of hedged his bets at at the end and gave himself a Castro did it out.  I think most of us would say that the book is not really a stellar effort since it really does not deal in any way with the evidence in the case. In that regard, it resembles PJM and her acolyte Jean Davison, and her horrendous Oswald's Game.

Legend in my view, and Epstein taken as a case study, does not inspire confidence since in any discussion of his career, its pretty evident that Epstein flipped sides somewhere along the line. And the idea that the KGB was behind the murder of JFK does not have many followers that I know of.  In fact I know of none.

Let me explain why:

1. If the Russians were behind the hit, why would they hire Richard Case Nagell to track down the actual conspiracy. Further, the Russians knew that there was a domestic plot and that  the actual conspirators would try to  blame the communists.  

2. In the recently declassified files, both the leader of the USSR, Nikita K, and the upper level of the KGB, strongly suspect a right wing plot involving US security forces and they urge the American authorities to do a very vigorous inquiry.

3.  There is no evidence I know of that Oswald was ever recruited by the KGB.  In fact, from what I know, the Russians had Oswald smoked out very early as a CIA fake defector--which he was.  Oswald knew that and he had to fake a suicide attempt to even be allowed to stay in the country.  

4. But even at that, they then shipped him 400 miles from the seat of government to Minsk.  And they then surrounded him with a ring of electronic and human surveillance. Why would they do that if they had recruited Oswald?

5.  What is the evidence that once Oswald left the USSR, that he had any KGB contacts in the USA? The White Russians' goal was to overthrow the Communists in Moscow.  George DeM stated that he would never have met Oswald if it had not been requested of him by his CIA handler J. Walton Moore. And I also think most of us know that when the Baron went to Haiti he was working in tandem with the CIA again.

6. It is clear that once Oswald left for New Orleans he was again associating with reactionary, CIA associated figures like Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Guy Banister. And also with some Cuban exiles.  Where was the KGB?

7. When he returns to Dallas from Mexico, is anyone going to argue that the Paines or Wesley Frazier were Russian agents?

8. In Mexico City, I mean please. What is the evidence that he even visited the Russian Embassy? If we recall, Phillips once said that when all was said and done, there would be none.  David Josephs has come up with some revolutionary work on this subject. And it is going to get even more convincing I predict.  To the point that I believe it will set a new paradigm.  But even if you buy the whole Passport to Assassination book, which I do not, where is the tie in between the Russians and Oswald in Dallas?  

9. What was the KGB tie in with Jack Ruby?  How did they influence him to kill their agent, Oswald?

10. How did the KGB arrange to falsify the autopsy at Bethesda that night?  Was Curtis LeMay a secret double agent? Is that why he was flying in from Michigan that afternoon?

In light of the above, why would anyone even begin to postulate such an idea?

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/2/2018 at 3:30 PM, James DiEugenio said:

dupe

 

Quote

.....

James,

With all due respect, could you please give us a plausible reason for Sylvia Duran's and Eusebio Azcue's collectively describing the "Oswald" they allegedly dealt with on 9/27/63 in such a way as to so perfectly describe the Mexico City-based KGB officer Nikolai Leonov?


Quite short (Leonov was 5' 6" or 5' 7", not much taller than Duran's 5' 3.5" - 5' 3.75"), blue-eyes, blond; blond-or-dark-blond hair, thin, about 30 years of age, VERY THIN-FACE, and, according to Azcue, wearing a blue suit (which Azcue seemed to remember quite well, as he implied it was a Prince of Wales suit with a pattern of crossed lines and red highlight stripes in the jacket), not, one would think, totally unlike the darkish suit "diplomat" Leonov was photographed wearing five days later on October 2.

How do you incorporate this in your all-over-the-place "The evil, evil CIA did it" book-selling narrative? Would you like to publicly agree with Sandy Larsen that the evil, evil CIA must have sent an agent with Leonov's physical characteristics to Mexico City to "kill two birds with one stone," i.e.,

1)  to somehow impersonate (the one and only) Lee Harvey Oswald, and 

2)  to implicate that very, very nice KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (who had introduced Raul Castro and Che to Communism back in the day)?

(Which, IF TRUE, raises the following awkward question: Was Sylvia Duran -- the person who claimed to have stapled Lee Harvey Oswald's passport-sized photos to his visa application forms in his presence -- secretly in the employ of the evil, evil CIA, either directly, or via the equally evil, evil, evil Mexican Police/Intelligence Service?)

Or, on the other hand, is it remotely possible that Duran and Azcue described the "Oswald" they did (or did not at all) deal with on Friday, September 27 the way they did in order to point the finger at Leonov and the KGB for putatively having "arranged" / "coerced" the ruse?

Or that the bugger Ruskie midget really did impersonate the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald? (Which, in a way, could help us to make sense of Leonov's amazing National Enquirer interview in which he said that he alone met with (crazy, dangerous looking) Oswald at the Cuban Consulate on SUNDAY, September 29 -- because, "How in the heck could I have impersonated him if he showed up at my office!?")


More challenging questions for James DiEugenio (and fascinating points from me) will appear on this thread shortly. 

Stay tuned, folks ...

--  Tommy  :sun


 

Edited by Thomas Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tommy,

I hope you will explain why Duran and Azcue -- presumably as Cuban agents -- would try to to create a link between Oswald and the KGB right after the assassination.

Do you think that Cuba wanted Russia to get the blame for the assassination? If so, why do you think they would want that?

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only conclusion one can draw is that it wasn't Oswald who met Duran and Azcue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

I hope you will explain why Duran and Azcue -- presumably as Cuban agents -- would try to to create a link between Oswald and the KGB right after the assassination.

Do you think that Cuba wanted Russia to get the blame for the assassination? If so, why do you think they would they want that?

 

Sandy,

With all due respect, I can't explain everything, or even much, in this confounding murder mystery. 

Can you?

But I can point out some interesting facts and so-called "anomalies," and offer plausible interpretations of them which would appear to cast suspicion on the Ruskies.

And, perhaps more importantly, I can apprise our current situation and work backwards, in an attempt to understand how in the heck we ended up with a blackmail-able, mobbed-up-with-the-Russians president who wants to weaken NATO, the EU, the CIA, etc., and realize that by Trump's doing so, he is unwittingly enabling former KGB (counterintelligence) Lieutenant-Colonel Vladimir Putin to realize his neo-fascist, kleptocratic, expansionist goals. 

(No, that's not a typo.  I said the leader of Russia, not the evil, evil, evil, evil, evil U.S.A.)

But to your question.  Maybe Castro was still really pxxxxd off at Russia for having pulled its nukes out of Cuba, and having used him as a pawn?

Hey!  Here's an idea!  Maybe Castro patsied both the CIA and the Kremlin!
Whaddaya think?

More later ...

 

--  Tommy  :sun

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:
2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

I hope you will explain why Duran and Azcue -- presumably as Cuban agents -- would try to to create a link between Oswald and the KGB right after the assassination.

Do you think that Cuba wanted Russia to get the blame for the assassination? If so, why do you think they would they want that?

 

Sandy,

With all due respect, I can't explain everything, or even much, in this confounding murder mystery. 

Can you?

 

Yes, Tommy, I can explain most of the higher-level points of the assassination. Especially with the help of some of the members here who specialize in facets of the case where my understanding is more superficial.

The Mexico City thing is not hard to figure out. The CIA was using it to implicate Cuba and Russia in the assassination of President Kennedy... a false flag operation designed to create a pretext for invasion or war against Cuba, Russia, and/or communism in general. (An alternate possibility is that it was meant to trigger a cover-up by the Johnson Administration by threatening WW3.)

The CIA-fabricated evidence was meant to show a Cuban/Russian conspiracy with Oswald. The later FBI-fabricated evidence was meant to isolate Oswald.

It seems like you don't want to see the CIA as doing something so evil. If so, no wonder you can't figure this out.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yes, Tommy, I can explain most of the higher-level points of the assassination. Especially with the help of some of the members here who specialize in facets of the case where my understanding is more superficial.

The Mexico City thing is not hard to figure out. The CIA was using it to implicate Cuba and Russia in the assassination of President Kennedy... a false flag operation designed to create a pretext for invasion or war against Cuba, Russia, and/or communism in general. (An alternate possibility is that it was meant to trigger a cover-up by the Johnson Administration by threatening WW3.)

The CIA-fabricated evidence was meant to show a Cuban/Russian conspiracy with Oswald. The later FBI-fabricated evidence was meant to isolate Oswald.

It seems like you don't want to see the CIA as doing something so evil. If so, no wonder you can't figure this out.

 

Sandy,

With all due respect, the "Harvey and Lee" theory is something that's absolutely crucial to your analysis, right?

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

With all due respects, something that's absolutely crucial to your analysis is the "Harvey and Lee Theory," right?

--  Tommy  :sun

 

Not at all.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Not at all.

 

 

Really?

You don't incorporate one scintilla of it in your theory?

With all due respect, how's your labor-intensive exposition on "Harvey's missing tooth" coming along?  Or was it "Lee's'"?  I get so confused.

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

 KGB counterintelligence Lieutenant Colonel Vladimir Putin

--  Tommy  :sun
 

Thomas,

 

I'm sorry, did you just say Lieutenant-colonel?

 

*does face plant*

*smile*

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And the idea that the KGB was behind the murder of JFK does not have many followers that I know of.  In fact I know of none.

Jim,

 

I can't see the Russian government being behind JFK's assassination coming after Kenney's speech on June 10th at American University.

I can see the possibility however, that there were those who thought rapproachement was a bad idea.

I envision a scenario where there were people who did not want the Cold War to end; who wanted the arms race to continue. It was too lucrative.

Now maybe my "envsions" are the result of too much LSD, I don't know; but it's kind of like fighting the the war in Afghanistan, but not eradicating the poppy fields.

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Thomas,

 

I'm sorry, did you just say Lieutenant-colonel?

 

*does face plant*

*smile*

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve,

With all due respect, what's wrong with an occasional anachronysm from time to time?

That was Putin's rank in the KGB (counterintelligence) when he was laid off in 1991.

--  Tommy  :sun

Like they say, "Once in the evil, evil, evil KGB, always in the evil, evil, evil KGB.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

 

I can't see the Russian government being behind JFK's assassination coming after Kenney's speech on June 10th at American University.

I can see the possibility however, that there were those who thought rapproachement was a bad idea.

I envision a scenario where there were people who did not want the Cold War to end; who wanted the arms race to continue. It was too lucrative.

Now maybe my "envsions" are the result of too much LSD, I don't know; but it's kind of like fighting the the war in Afghanistan, but not eradicating the poppy fields.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

With all due respect, since I've been a member here (off and on -- lol) since 2005, I'm not surprised at all that that's what you believe.

--  Tommy  :sun

 

EDIT:  Oh, wait a second.  You mean bad guys on both sides, right?  Or just the evil, evil, evil U.S.A.?

Edited by Thomas Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Thomas Graves said:

 

Steve,

With all due respect, what's wrong with an occasional anachronysm from time to time?

That was Putin's rank in the KGB (counterintelligence) when he was laid off in 1991.

--  Tommy  :sun

 

Thomas,

 

Sorry.

I was just trying to be funny.

I guess I failed.

 

Steve Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Thomas,

 

Sorry.

I was just trying to be funny.

I guess I failed.

 

Steve Thomas

Oh.  I see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×