The KGB and the JFK case

[Thomas Graves]

On 5/5/2018 at 8:09 AM, Thomas Graves said:

 

On 2/19/2018 at 9:54 PM, James DiEugenio wrote:

"But Sandy:

I still don't know what Angleton is talking about.

What arrest of Oswald, and what picture of Leontov or Leonov or whatever the heck the guy's name is?

When did that happen and where is the picture among his belongings?"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dear James,

From the context of what Senator Baker had asked Angleton just a minute or two earlier, and Angleton's response thereto, it's clear that Mr. Schwarz meant to say "Fidel Castro," instead of "Oswald," and that they were all talking about KGB-boy  Nikolai Leonov (you know, the quite short, very thin-faced "Blond Oswald in Mexico City"?) rather than some dude named "Leontov".
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1447#relPageId=12&tab=page

 

MFF page 12:

Senator Baker:  ... Do you have an opinion as to whether or not Oswald was in fact a Soviet agent?

Mr. Angleton:  "Well, let me put it to you this way.  I don't think that the Oswald case is dead.  There are too many leads that were never followed up.  There's too much information that has been developed later.  For example, in 1966, in a Soviet book on Cuba there is a photograph of Khrushchev, a photograph of Castro, a photograph of a man named Alexiev, real name Shettov (sic), KGB, with the First Soviet Ambassador to Havana, and a man named (Nikolai) Leontov (sic), who was the Soviet KGB operational man in Mexico (note: and who was only under KGB-boy "chief of station" Pavel Yatskov there). When the Mexican police arrested Castro as a student, they found in his notebooks the name (Nikolai) Leontov (sic), KGB, Mexico."

MFF page 15: 

Mr Schwarz:  Can I follow up some of the questions that Senator Baker asked you about Oswald?  What about the pictures, one of which was a picture of Leontov (sic) that was in a piece of paper found in Mr. Oswald's (sic) pocket when he was arrested in Mexico? 

Mr Angleton:  There is an allegation.  (Possible meaning: "I haven't heard of that.")

Mr Schwarz:  What connection is there between that picture and that allegation and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr Angleton:  The only thing is, Oswald's trip to Mexico was to go to Cuba allegedly to contact the Soviets.

 

I mean, you do realize don't you,  James, that Fidel Castro was arrested in Mexico in 1956, a couple of years after KGB-boy Nikolai Leonov had turned Raul Castro (and later, Che Guevara) onto Communism during a "chance" meeting on a ship?

 

"In 1953, at the age of 25, Leonov was posted to Mexico City, where he learned Spanish at the Autonomous University. In the course of the sea voyage, he met Raúl Castro, who was returning from a European youth festival. On arrival in Mexico he took up a junior post in the Soviet embassy."  -- Wikipedia article on Nikolai Leonov

 

For your edification, James, the evil, evil, evil CIA document below says that Leonov's "personal card" was found in Castro's wallet when he was arrested.  In Mexico.  In 1956.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48495&relPageId=3

In my humble opinion, a "personal card" (business card?) makes more sense to me than some silly photo of Leonov, wouldn't you agree, James? 

I mean, I mean, I mean, Fidel Castro and the KGB dude who turned his brother and Che onto Communism may have been "close," but I seriously doubt that they were "going steady."

Mistakes all around, eh, James?

Par for the course in the JFK Assassination, and "fertile rounds" for "Tin Foil Hat Wearing" conspiracy theorists, in my humble opinion!

--  TG


 

Left to Right:  Fidel Castro, Nikolai Leonov, Raul Castro

 

OMG, is that a Prince of Wales suit?  (Note the narrow, lighter-colored vertical stripes in the sleeve.)



 

 

 

I hope it's not too soon to "bump" this, in the hope that someone will tell James DiEugenio that I posted it for his edification.

--  T.G.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:09 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 2/19/2018 at 10:54 PM, James DiEugenio said:

But Sandy:

I still don't know what Angleton is talking about.

What arrest of Oswald, and what picture of Leontov or Leonov or whatever the heck the guy's name is?

When did that happen and where is the picture among his belongings?

Dear James,

From the context of what Senator Baker had asked Angleton just a minute or two earlier, and Angleton's response thereto, it's clear that Mr. Schwarz meant to say "Fidel Castro," instead of "Oswald," and that they were all talking about KGB-boy  Nikolai Leonov (you know, the quite short, very thin-faced "Blond Oswald in Mexico City"?) rather than some dude named "Leontov".

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1447#relPageId=12&tab=page

 

Yes, that appears to be the case. Good catch Tommy.

I had thought that Angleton's testimony regarding the picture in Oswald's pocket -- as mentioned by Schwarz --  had been redacted from the document. But now I see that Schwarz confused not only the person (Oswald instead of Castro) but also a picture being in his pocket rather than just a name written on a piece of paper.

So therefore Angleton did not really say that Oswald had been arrested in Mexico. It was Castro who had been.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

54 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yes, that appears to be the case. Good catch Tommy.

I had thought that Angleton's testimony regarding the picture in Oswald's pocket -- as mentioned by Schwarz --  had been redacted from the document. But now I see that Schwarz confused not only the person (Oswald instead of Castro) but also a picture being in his pocket rather than just a name written on a piece of paper.

 

 

Atta boy, Sandy.

 

Thanks for the moral support.


What's really fascinating to me about Angleton's 1975 and 1976 Church Committee testimonies is that he seems to be saying that he thinks a KGB-type whom we thought was a double agent working for us and who had been in contact with Kostikov in Mexico City, was really a triple agent still working for the Soviets all along and giving us false information about Oswald before the assassination so as to make it look later as though  the KGB had had nothing to do with Oswald.

Regarding the identity of this triple agent, at one point Angleton says "Byetkov" whom I tried to find reference to on the Internet, with no luck.

But it's interesting to note that someone wrote a question mark next to his name in the transcript, so I guess I'm not the only one who couldn't find him.

I think Angleton might have had one too many martinis (they started at 2:10 that day), and that he might have been thinking of Guenter Schulz (AE/BURBLE), instead.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1447&search=schwarz#relPageId=16&tab=page


--  T.G.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I had thought that Angleton's testimony regarding the picture in Oswald's pocket -- as mentioned by Schwarz --  had been redacted from the document. But now I see that Schwarz confused not only the person (Oswald instead of Castro) but also a picture being in his pocket rather than just a name written on a piece of paper.

So therefore Angleton did not really say that Oswald had been arrested in Mexico. It was Castro who had been.

 

Bill Simpich also fell for this misunderstanding. From State Secret 5:

"Angleton went on to claim that there were several photos of interest. Two of them were photos of Leonov and Castro together, found in Castro’s possession when he was arrested in Mexico City in 1956, as well as a photo of Castro’s arrest itself. The true version of this story is that Leonov’s business card was found in Castro’s wallet. Angleton also claimed that a photo of Leonov was supposedly found in Oswald’s pocket when he was supposedly arrested in Mexico"

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

What's really fascinating to me about Angleton's 1975 and 1976 Church Committee testimonies is that he seems to be saying that he thinks a KGB-type whom we thought was a double agent working for us and who had been in contact with Kostikov in Mexico City, was really a triple agent still working for the Soviets all along and giving us false information about Oswald before the assassination so as to make it look later as though  the KGB had had nothing to do with Oswald.

Tommy,

Regarding Angleton's Byetkov story, I don't see anything about Kostikov, or about  the Soviets giving us false information regarding Oswald prior to the assassination. Can you tell me which pages to look at?

 

[Thomas Graves]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

Regarding Angleton's Byetkov story, I don't see anything about Kostikov, or about  the Soviets giving us false information regarding Oswald prior to the assassination. Can you tell me which pages to look at?

 

 

Sandy,

Yeah, I should have written it this way:  Regarding the identity of this triple agent,  "At one point Angleton says "Byetkov" whom I tried to find reference to on the Internet, with no luck."

And just let it hang there like that, kinda like the fascinating juxtaposition of  "Lee Henry Oswald" and "A six-foot American with an athletic build and a receding hairline," or words to that effect, in that notorious mole-hunting cable from back in the day...

Probably no connection whatsoever, just good old "guilt by juxtaposition".

And no, Sandy, I'm not being sarcastic, or suggesting that, uh  ..........

Just my awkward  and witty widdle attempt to admit that I am probably wrong.

Maybe.

--  T.G.

 

EDIT ALERT:  I guess the point is, according to Angleton, some triple agent KGB dude (NOT false defector Nosenko) was trying to convince us, either before or after the assassination, that KGB had nothing to do with Oswald in Mexico City.

Regardless, Sandy, don't you find it ... uh .... suspicious .... that that evil, evil, evil James Jesus Angleton was still obsessing on that quite short, 30-something, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced "Blond Oswald in Mexico City" (aka KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov) as late as 1975 ?????

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/3/2018 at 5:03 AM, James DiEugenio said:

This is a good example of the differences in how some people evaluate evidence and also their knowledge of and interest in history.

I named ten pretty much indisputable observations which show that the KGB was not involved in the JFK case, including the fact that they themselves suspected a high level plot within the US government.  I could have gone even further than that.  For example: I think most of us understand that what happened in Chicago three weeks previous was either a dry run for Dallas, or an actual attempt to kill JFK.  What was the KGB connection to Thomas Vallee?  Was there a KGB double agent in the Chicago office of the Secret Service who squelched the inquiry and allowed Dallas to occur?

TG answers none of those points.  He chooses to say well, the blonde guy Azcue and Duran describes resembles this Russian.  To me this is about as reliable and credible as is his "Morales in the film" in New Orleans.  Put them together and their probability exponentially weakens not strengthens.  Simply because they are both so tenuous. He then, when Sandy shows another big hole in his concept, throws in a slur at Harvey and Lee.  Again, where did I use any of that in my opening salvo?  

TG then goes on to make an even more wild and unfounded claim, something that I had to read twice to understand. And I still have a hard time believing he wrote it.

Somehow whatever happened in TG's  version of the JFK murder, this somehow, some way aided the rise of Trump and Putin to their places in government today?  I mean did I read that right?  If I did, I almost fear for this forum.

Putin's rise to power in Russia is directly related to what happened in Russia beginning in the early nineties, and can be explained by two things that anyone who is interested in history can easily learn.  The first was the coup attempt against Gorbachev by the hardline communists who wished to thwart his attempts at Glasnost and Perestroika. This grievously weakened his position and gave the opening to the drunken fool Yeltsin.  Yeltsin was an utter and complete disaster, and one reason he was so was his attempt at the so called Shock Doctrine economic plan which was implemented by the late Yegor Gaidar.  (Maybe he was the guy in Mexico City?)  Gaidar--and later Anatoly Chubais--did two things: 1.) He drove much of Russia into extreme poverty, and 2.) He and Yeltsin now gave rise to an immensely wealthy plutocratic class that, in reverse Robin Hood (or Milton Friedman style), began to rape the country of its national wealth.  It was that fire sale that opened up Russia to all kinds of foreign interests, including American. In 1999, when Yeltsin was ailing and realized that he had pretty much left the country a hopeless catastrophe, he invited Putin into the government as a Deputy Prime Minister. And from there, when Yeltsin resigned, Putin became Acting President.  How any of that has anything to do with the JFK case is something that only TG, or maybe Max Boot, knows.

To  ignore it all, or say that somehow its directly related to Dallas 1963, that to me is to me nothing but utter and complete nonsense.  It is anti-historical, anti-intellectual, and as judges say, "utterly without merit".  

 

 

James, 

 

Yes, but you left out a few widdle details, James.

I mean, I mean, I mean ...  isn't it interesting that Putin's gig shortly before being named First Prime Minister by corrupt 'n drunk Yeltsin was that of head of the FSB, and that shortly after he'd left the FSB, the martial law-inducing "Russian Apartment Bombings" happened (in 1999), you know, right before the elections?

Which "terrorist bombings," by the way, were traced by the local Ryazan, Russia, police to the  ... gasp ... FSB? 

And for writing about said bombings, by the way, former KGB officer Litvinenko was slipped some Polonium Tea by a couple of his old KGB buds in Merry Old London Town a few years back, you know ... I mean, I mean, I mean ... for having had the gall to write about Putin's connection to said bombings?

I mean, I mean, I mean, doesn't it kinda look as thought it was all planned that way so that the 1 ) "Chechen Terrorists" could be blamed for murdering 300 Russian citizens, 2 ) martial law could be declared, and 3 ) Vladimir Putin (who, as First Prime Minister, had been covering Yeltsin's corrupt xxx), would automatically, per the Russian Constitution, become interim president when good ol' Boris Y. up and decided to ... gasp ... retire?

Hard to image your buddy Vladimir Putin doing such a horrible thing as arranging the "Russian Apartment Bombings" in order to become president, James?

Well, consider the fact that your boy, recently laid off by the KGB in Dresden, East Germany,  "made his bones" with the powers that be by helping the so-called "liberal" but corrupt mayor of Saint Petersburg, Anatoly Sobchak, steal $124 million of food funds from the mouths of practically starving Saint Petersburg residents in 1992.

You can read all about it in Marsha Gessen's fine book, "Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin," or if you prefer, you can google "Putin's Way" and watch the highly fascistic PBS's Frontline production by the same title.  For free!

-- T.G.

 

PS  As to how all of this relates to Trump's becoming our president?

Well, haven't you ever heard of "active measures" counterintelligence ops (continuous since 1921) and "strategic/operational deception" counterintelligence ops (since 1958 with the dispatching to the U.S. of false double-agent Polyakov in "Operation Boomerang")?

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk ...

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:03 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy, don't you find it ... uh .... suspicious .... that that evil, evil, evil James Jesus Angleton was still obsessing on that quite short, 30-something, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced "Blond Oswald in Mexico City" (aka KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov) as late as 1975 ?????

Yes, I think that is very telling.

It tells me that Angleton's 1963 false flag operation was specifically targeting Nikolai Leonov.

Later Win Scott sequestered Leonov's photo from Mystery Man's photos and sent it to J.C. King with the note, "a certain person who is known to you

In 1978, Cuba revealed that it has figured out the conspiracy. Its pretty much what I keep saying. And it involves Leonov's photo. They say the WC first got the photo but then it was withdrawn. See the first two or three pages of this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27&tab=page

This is a long-solved case. Not the whole thing is solved, but much of it. The Cubans got it right.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In 1978, Cuba revealed that it has figured out the conspiracy. Its pretty much what I keep saying. And it involves Leonov's photo. They say the WC first got the photo but then it was withdrawn. See the first two or three pages of this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27&tab=page

This is a long-solved case. Not the whole thing is solved, but much of it. The Cubans got it right.

 

This has the link.

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, I think that is very telling.

It tells me that Angleton's 1963 false flag operation was specifically targeting Nikolai Leonov.

Later Win Scott sequestered Leonov's photo from Mystery Man's photos and sent it to J.C. King with the note, "a certain person who is known to you

In 1978, Cuba revealed that it has figured out the conspiracy. Its pretty much what I keep saying. And it involves Leonov's photo. They say the WC first got the photo but then it was withdrawn. See the first two or three pages of this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27&tab=page

This is a long-solved case. Not the whole thing is solved, but much of it. The Cubans got it right.

 

 

Sandy,

 

1 )  What, pray tell, do you mean by "false flag operation" in this context?

 

2 )  How do you know that Leonov's photo was the one Scott was referring to when he wrote "a certain person who is known to you"?

 

3 )  The Cubans got what right?

 

4)  Which page(s) would you like to refer me to?

--  T.G.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

1 )  What, pray tell, do you mean by "false flag operation" in this context?

 

The false flag operation was the CIA killing Kennedy, but trying to place blame on the Cubans and Russians via the Mexico City ruse.

 

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

2 )  How do you know that Leonov's photo was the one Scott was referring to when he wrote "a certain person who is known to you"?

 

Because of all the hints we see of one of the Mexico City photos being sequestered from the others. The "others" being the heavy set "Mystery Man." Here are the hints:

1. Win Scott set aside the one photo that was known to the CIA, and sent it to J.C. King.

2. The Cubans, when they made public their conspiracy theory (documented below), spoke of one photo (not the heavy set guy) that was withdrawn from the Warren Commission.

3. In response to the Cubans' allegations, a CIA spokesman admitted that one photo was indeed withheld from the Warren Commission. Obviously this was not of the same man whose photos the Warren Commission retained. It had to have been Leonov.

 

You need to read the document I link to below to see what I am talking about. It seems clear to me that the Warren Commission got the multiple photos of the heavy set Mystery Man. The one they didn't get was they one the CIA knew, and that was Leonov. The Johnson Administration withheld that from the Warren Commission to avoid any hint of Cuban or Russian conspiracy.

 

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

3 )  The Cubans got what right?

 

That the assassination was a CIA false flag operation designed to blame Castro. A pretext for U.S. invasion of Cuba. They also knew that the Oswald in Mexico City was not Oswald at all, but rather a CIA employee. They knew that the man posing as Oswald was the same person whose photo had been withheld from the Warren Commission... the person we know as Leonov.

This is identical with my conspiracy theory. The only difference being that they don't openly state that the photo was of a known KGB agent. At least not in the news article.

(The one thing the Cubans probably wrong is that they suspected the CIA conspired with the Mafia.)

 

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

4)  Which page(s) would you like to refer me to?

 

Read the first two pages of this:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27&tab=page

 

[Mervyn Hagger]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The false flag operation was the CIA killing Kennedy, but trying to place blame on the Cubans and Russians via the Mexico City ruse.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27&tab=page

 

That is an interesting transcript, but the flaw is in the use of the prefix "THE", as in "the CIA". There never has been a unified CIA. It is one Agency using that name, but under its umbrella were several people who believed that they had some form of autonomous authority. That includes the nepotistic Attorney General Robert Kennedy who had his own little bandwagon targeting Cuba.

But rather than beginning with the middle of Oswald's life story, because that is what you are discussing concerning a 'double', why not start at the beginning of his story on the day he left New Orleans on a ship. He arrived in France. Then he boarded another ship and crossed the English Channel where he told Immigration that he was in England for a week, after which he would be going to college in Switzerland. Now all he had to do when he landed in France was catch a train to Switzerland, but instead of that he crossed the English Channel and landed in England. But did he do what he said, and stay a week and then go to Switzerland? No, he went to Heathrow and caught a plane. Even the FBI and CIA seem uncertain where that plane went to, but they do know that he checked into a very expensive hotel in Helsinki, Finland. All of this takes place in 1959, and Oswald is on his way to the USSR. No one is sure how he got the permit/s to go there and stay there. But he was there. This was long before John Kennedy ran for President and got elected. So why did Oswald undertake this journey?

Was Oswald being 'groomed' as a sleeper, and if so, by whom? Obviously not KGB, so who is a possible suspect?

How about MI6?

They absorbed all of the Cambridge University spies, some of which they shipped to the USA to spy on CIA operatives.

The spy business is so conflicting.

Just remember that the British burned down the Library of Congress and set fire to the White House - long after the War of Independence, and it was Churchill conspiring with FDR who dragged the USA into WWII. How did Churchill do this? By having an entire operation based in Rockefeller Center that had access to all kinds of US media, including two big radio stations, one on the east coast and one on the west coast.

But guess what?

No one has looked into the movements of LHO in 1959, aside that is from a perfunctory report here and there which concluded that no one knew what Oswald was doing.

The question is: whatever he was doing, who was he doing it for?

 

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

  .....

No one has looked into the movements of LHO in 1959, aside that is from a perfunctory report here and there which concluded that no one knew what Oswald was doing.

The question is: whatever he was doing, who was he doing it for?

 

 

Mervyn,

John Newman believes Oswald was a very important "pawn" during the Cold War.

Malcolm Blunt interviewed Newman's and my "main man," Tennent H. Bagley (RIP; have you heard of him?), a few years ago, and one of the things that came out of their conversation is that Bagley believed that, based on an analysis of the way the CIA's documents on Oswald during that period of time were distributed (or were not distributed), that Oswald must have been a witting false defector to the USSR, probably dispatched there by Angleton (if I understand correctly).

 

--  T.G.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

No one has looked into the movements of LHO in 1959, aside that is from a perfunctory report here and there which concluded that no one knew what Oswald was doing.

That statement is  - of course - untrue...  no one has looked more deeply into Oswald pre-assassination than Armstrong...

For example Mervyn...  THIS Oswald was released March 1959 with his file sent to DC...  When an attempt was made to do his BIO... John Ely runs into all sorts of problems in that there are entire groups of men who were stationed with an OSWALD who the man tasked with compiling his bio simply never heard of...  These are the men stationed with the real LEE OSWALD...  

 

 

 

The real LEE is also the man supposedly on the Tannenbaum video ...  It does look like him... and while so many do not put faith in LORENZ... what is the motivation to lie?

Where "OSWALD" was in 59-60-61 can be answered in a number of ways, depending on who you ask...

 

 

 

 

Our Oswald lies a few times to different people and heads off to Europe in Sept/Oct 1959 and enters USSR with a very quick visa turnaround....

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs

[Mervyn Hagger]

48 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Mervyn,

John Newman believes Oswald was a very important "pawn" during the Cold War.

Malcolm Blunt interviewed Newman's and my "main man," Tennent H. Bagley (RIP; have you heard of him?), a few years ago, and one of the things that came out of their conversation is that Bagley believed that, based on an analysis of the way the CIA's documents on Oswald during that period of time were distributed (or were not distributed), that Oswald must have been a witting false defector to the USSR, probably dispatched there by Angleton (if I understand correctly).

 

--  T.G.

 

Hi Thomas. No, I have never heard of him, but then until the last few days I had no idea that Oswald had been in England, and I had no idea that his entire journey from London to Helsinki was such a mystery. But then his entire trip from New Orleans to France and then to England is an even bigger mystery. I find it interesting that Edwin Walker's observations in the Arizona Republic are ignored, and so is the possibility that Oswald could have been in Stockholm, and what that could imply. I see lots and lots of speculation but very little fact and virtually no major attempt to uncover why LHO went to England. All of implied help from other people, and this is before he got to the USSR.