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James DiEugenio

The KGB and the JFK case

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17 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

No one has looked into the movements of LHO in 1959, aside that is from a perfunctory report here and there which concluded that no one knew what Oswald was doing.

That statement is  - of course - untrue...  no one has looked more deeply into Oswald pre-assassination than Armstrong...

For example Mervyn...  THIS Oswald was released March 1959 with his file sent to DC...  When an attempt was made to do his BIO... John Ely runs into all sorts of problems in that there are entire groups of men who were stationed with an OSWALD who the man tasked with compiling his bio simply never heard of...  These are the men stationed with the real LEE OSWALD...  

5a258d0b2e0f1_GorskyandtheElToroSantaAnamixup.thumb.jpg.49d21d94a58edf2952001607658e9849.jpg

 

 

The real LEE is also the man supposedly on the Tannenbaum video ...  It does look like him... and while so many do not put faith in LORENZ... what is the motivation to lie?

Where "OSWALD" was in 59-60-61 can be answered in a number of ways, depending on who you ask...

963395914_LORENZtestimonywheretoldshecouldNOThaveseenOswaldwhowasinRussiaatthetime.thumb.jpg.6d2af29932c9f47422356c78648dd806.jpg

 

Tannenbaum-film---Oswald-at-training-camp-with-Sturgis---cropped-to-Oswald-behind-Sturgis.gif.5440a9e928084b82a337ce863f3d0dbf.gif

 

Our Oswald lies a few times to different people and heads off to Europe in Sept/Oct 1959 and enters USSR with a very quick visa turnaround....

 

 

 

 

Hi David, that's all very nice, but none of it has anything to do with Oswald being in England during 1959, and that is what has piqued my interest. Mervyn

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24 minutes ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Hi David, that's all very nice, but none of it has anything to do with Oswald being in England during 1959, and that is what has piqued my interest. Mervyn

I was under the impression he was only in England for a day or so... Oct 9th 1959... in all of 1959...  
when are you talking about?

From H&L:

The SS Marion Lykes docked at La Pallice, France at 9:00 am on October 5.

When Billy Lord disembarked, he recalled that Oswald was not in his cabin and he never saw him again. Lord travelled to the French city of Tour and attended the Institute of French Studies.105 A month later, when Lord learned of Oswald's defection to Russia, he wrote a letter to Mr. and Mrs. Church at their home in Florida.

The SS Marion Lykes next sailed north to the port of Le Havre, France, where Harvey Oswald and Mrs. and Mrs. Church disembarked.106 Oswald's passport was stamped by the Suerte Nationale (Le Havre Security Police) on October 8, as he disembarked, but it remains unknown where he spent the night. The following day, October 9, Oswald. secured passage to Southampton, England where his passport was stamped by an British Immigration Officer.

NOTE: Oswalds method of travel from Le Havre, France to Southampton, England remains unknown. The Warren Commission assumed that he traveled by ship and guessed that his fare was $20.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

David,

Please enlighten me.

Is this Henry, Lee, or Harvey?

 

Tannenbaum-film---Oswald-at-training-camp-with-Sturgis---cropped-to-Oswald-behind-Sturgis.gif.5440a9e928084b82a337ce863f3d0dbf.gif

 

--  T.G.

PS  Isn't it interesting that all too often whenever: 1) typographical errors, 2) failed memories, 4) suspicious blurry photographs, or 4) documentary evidence or indications of a genuine mole hunt (or mole hunts, and the necessary secrecy and compartmentalization thereof) are brought forward in the context of the JFK assassination, "Henry and/or Lee and/or Harvey" are (plural) offered as an "explanation" and indictment  of the evil, evil, evil CIA and/or (the truly messed up under Hoover) FBI?

Makes one wonder:  Are Armstrong, et al., on the Kremlin's, or ... gasp ... Havana's, ... uhh ... payroll, ... or are they just well-meaning (but "brainwashed" by 90-plus years of ... gasp ... KGB "active measures"), so-called "useful idiots"?

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)

Duplicated text

 

Edited by Mervyn Hagger
duplicated text

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12 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I was under the impression he was only in England for a day or so... Oct 9th 1959... in all of 1959...  
when are you talking about?

From H&L:

The SS Marion Lykes docked at La Pallice, France at 9:00 am on October 5.

When Billy Lord disembarked, he recalled that Oswald was not in his cabin and he never saw him again. Lord travelled to the French city of Tour and attended the Institute of French Studies.105 A month later, when Lord learned of Oswald's defection to Russia, he wrote a letter to Mr. and Mrs. Church at their home in Florida.

The SS Marion Lykes next sailed north to the port of Le Havre, France, where Harvey Oswald and Mrs. and Mrs. Church disembarked.106 Oswald's passport was stamped by the Suerte Nationale (Le Havre Security Police) on October 8, as he disembarked, but it remains unknown where he spent the night. The following day, October 9, Oswald. secured passage to Southampton, England where his passport was stamped by an British Immigration Officer.

NOTE: Oswalds method of travel from Le Havre, France to Southampton, England remains unknown. The Warren Commission assumed that he traveled by ship and guessed that his fare was $20.

Hi David, I am talking about the same period of time, but not in the way you describe it. Jason Ward (on the Oswald in England thread) has been disassembling the story, and Jason has revealed some huge questions that have not been addressed. Mervyn

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10 minutes ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Hi David, I am talking about the same period of time, but not in the way you describe it. Jason Ward (on the Oswald in England thread) has been disassembling the story, and Jason has revealed some huge questions that have not been addressed. Mervyn

OK.. thanks... I'll go check it out....

BTW, were you aware that according to Oswald, his first day in USSR was Oct 16...  On Oct 15, WEBSTER is officially listed as Defected...

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10181-10086.pdf

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37 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

OK.. thanks... I'll go check it out....

BTW, were you aware that according to Oswald, his first day in USSR was Oct 16...  On Oct 15, WEBSTER is officially listed as Defected...

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10181-10086.pdf

Thanks David. I followed your link. Who is this person, and is there any connection to LHO? Mervyn

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1 hour ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Thanks David. I followed your link. Who is this person, and is there any connection to LHO? Mervyn

Are you asking who Robert Webster is?

The 5'11" 165 man who look a bit like Oswald? who also defected... who Marina describes when asked about how she met OSWALD...

that these 2 things happen so close together is significant...   "RAND corp"....

184745960_RobertWebsterandprojectLONGSTRIDE.thumb.jpg.0a156276d9dd9ed5d5e22c85821dfe65.jpg

2037084757_RobertEdwardWebster.jpg.625ce576a15e8be074820f2e3b49afb3.jpg

131387758_RobertOswald-HarveyandRobertWebster.jpg.3ba34538a71e6887d1e25705be3462f1.jpg

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

 .....

 

David,

 

Interesting quasi Simpich-related Webster / One-And-Only-Lee-Harvey-Oswald / Rand  "findings", but as for some of your earlier posts, do you really think Master James DiEugenio created this special thread for me so that you could take it over with your spaghetti-on-the-wall "'Henry' and 'Lee' and 'Harvey' and the Two ... (Gasp!) ... 'Marguerites'" cut and paste, wall-to-wall-with-cheap-wallpaper ... garbage?

 

--  T.G.
 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thomas Graves said: 

Pamela,

It's evident that you haven't read Tennent H. Bagley's 35-page (2015  PDF) "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," much less his 2007 book, "Spy Wars."

Both are free to read on the Internet.

Or maybe you have, and you think Bagley's a  l-i-a-r?

--  TG

PS  Are you aware that, according to Bagley, he and CIA psychologist John Gittinger both witnessed Nosenko, near the "breaking point" twice, mutter to himself, "I can't tell them the truth, I can't tell them the truth ..."? 

As though he'd been KGB "MKULTRAed" before he was sent here?

 

I have.  I am not persuaded. 

Your comment about Nosenko's muttering falls prey to the fallacy of false alternatives.  Even if he did not tell all he knew, I do not think he knew the whole story.

 

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Bagely was likely a sadistic, myopic torturer. His later claims about Nosenko are very likely clouded by guilt. He was also likely incompetent and dangerously-so.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

Italics are mine...

 

TOP SECRET

13 October 1970

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington

#386 38

1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive  Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of Bagely to a supergrade position.

 2)  I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.

3)  I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that  Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's  instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that  Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions. 

 

Howard J. Osborn

Director of Security

 

Edited May 14 by Michael Clark
 

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12 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Bagely was likely a sadistic, myopic torturer. His later claims about Nosenko are very likely clouded by guilt. He was also likely incompetent and dangerously-so.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

Italics are mine...

 

TOP SECRET

13 October 1970

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington

#386 38

1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive  Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of Bagely to a supergrade position.

 2)  I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.

3)  I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that  Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's  instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that  Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions. 

 

Howard J. Osborn

Director of Security

 

Edited May 14 by Michael Clark
 

My take on Nosenko is that his mistreatment doesn’t make him a real defector. Nor does the fact that some of his leads panned out. Golitsyn’s leads did too, for a while, and he is widely considered a real defector. Then he started spewing rubbish, feeding Angleton’s paranoia. It’s possible that both were fakes. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2018 at 8:55 AM, Paul Brancato said:

My take on Nosenko is that his mistreatment doesn’t make him a real defector. Nor does the fact that some of his leads panned out. Golitsyn’s leads did too, for a while, and he is widely considered a real defector. Then he started spewing rubbish, feeding Angleton’s paranoia. It’s possible that both were fakes. 

I don't think anyone in CIA understood Nosenko, especially JJA.  The reasoning was either-or -- when the truth might have been something somewhat different. 

And I also think that Golitsyn was a very sophisticated false defector.

Edited by Pamela Brown

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On 5/23/2018 at 8:16 PM, Michael Clark said:

Bagely was likely a sadistic, myopic torturer. His later claims about Nosenko are very likely clouded by guilt. He was also likely incompetent and dangerously-so.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

Italics are mine...

 

TOP SECRET

13 October 1970

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington

#386 38

1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive  Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of Bagely to a supergrade position.

 2)  I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.

3)  I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that  Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's  instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that  Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions. 

 

Howard J. Osborn

Director of Security

 

Edited May 14 by Michael Clark
 

I too am uncomfortable with Bagely's positions.  He comes across as someone scrambling to do CYA.  

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