Did Marina order the rifle?

[Paul Brancato]

The last sentence is certainly intriguing, as was the suggestion that Ruth was in a good position to place the Oswald militant photo and sign the back making it look like Marina. 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

DeMohrenschildt, acting on a request, befriended the Oswalds and helped them in a few circumstances (i.e. arranging Marina's dental work and trying to find Lee employment related to industrial security), may have been acting with other motives (i.e. working to separate the couple), and ultimately his brief relationship with the Oswalds was the ruin of him (publicity tied to the assassination damaged the work he was doing in Haiti and his expected payout did not happen). There's definitely more than meets the eye, but the deMohrenschildt's were gone from the scene by the time the Oswald set-up had begun (in my opinion). 

As a surmise, deMohrenschildt probably knew enough to make an informed guess as to who set Lee up, and the inscribed photo was placed with their possessions to serve as a sort of warning. It is interesting that the response to discovering the photo in 1967 was to arrange a dinner with the Paines, who they barely knew.

Jeff,

 

Yes. I caught that last part too. I remember reading that DeMohrenschildt said he had only met Ruth Paine on two occasions, and then here he is calling her up and inviting them over for dinner. I thought to myself, that's kind of odd.

 

I read through Marina's HSCA testimony again. There is nothing in there about George and George Bouhe forcing the issue of the Oswald's separating and moving her out of the Elsbeth St. location to the Mellers.

 

Something caught my eye about Marina speaking English:

 

WC testimony of Mahlon Tobias, Manager of apartment on Elsbeth.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tobias_m.htm

 

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was--would come out in her front yard--I sat in her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring the baby out and, of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she could, because he didn't want her to anyway.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn't want her to learn it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she give any reason?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she said people will be mean to her.

 

CE 183 Letter from Lee to Marguerite 10/22/59 (should be 10/22/61)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=563&tab=page

 

“Marina unfortunately doesn't speak any English at all, I would like her to learn and I have bought some books for her on the subject, but for now she doesn't want to learn. She speaks a little already (she learned in grammar school), and she doesn't want to study another language for now. She really doesn't have the time you know, what with working from 10-5 and then the house work...”

 

George DeMohreschildt WC testimony. This was in 1964.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. “Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it. We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, and they obviously still have those records.”

 

Hmmmmm... Right from the very first day huh?

 

I think that whole business of Lee not allowing Marina to learn English so that she would be dependent on him is so much bullhockey.

She was refusing to learn, or at least pretending that she didn't know any.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Ron Bulman]

JMO from old reading and memory.  The rifle was most likely ordered  by someone from Senator Dodd's investigation of gun smuggling in the US and to Cuba and/or the CIA (through someone in Dodd's committee as cover for them?).

[James DiEugenio]

IMO, there is too much evidence that Marina did know English e.g. Webster and Martin and Oswald's brother.

The rifle was definitely not ordered by Oswald.

But what does everyone think of the Hidell name on the form?

To me, that just about eliminates Oswald in and of itself.

But exactly how many times did Oswald use that name and who would have known about it?

I mean Quigley would have right?  Because of the arrest in New Orleans.  So did the FBI set up that whole transaction after the fact?

[David Josephs]

13 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But exactly how many times did Oswald use that name and who would have known about it?

For a while the FBI/CIA thought Mystery Man could be HIDELL... but they were not sure...

Again, if Oswald had used HIDELL since returning from USSR... wouldn't we find that in the FBI reports?  Like no FBI reports of the rifle back in March, April, May, June... etc if he was using HIDELL for anything you'd think the FBI would have noticed.   The HIDEEL (with the same FPCC PO Box and stamp) vaccination was created/used to prove Oswald got back into the US from Mexico...  if you have one of those you didn't need to get off the bus to get vaccinated...  no records.

I am fairly sure that other than on the Klein's coupon & PMO, there is no other "USE" of the name ALEK HIDELL.

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

But exactly how many times did Oswald use that name and who would have known about it?

 

Jim,

 

Larry Hancock and I poked around about this a while back. Since the card itself is so botched, it would never pass muster as a legitimate form of ID. We wondered if the fact that it was a form of military ID as opposed to some other form of ID was significant in some way. I speculated that it was the name, and especially the signature that was important. When Oswald admitted in Dallas that the card was his, but the signature wasn't, that's what led me on the quest that is the topic of this thread. What was so important about that signature?

I decided that it was the signature that the authorities would use to tie him to the rifle purchase. Was the signature on both forged?

If the signatures match, and if, as you say, "The rifle was definitely not ordered by Oswald", then whoever filled out that PO form also signed that SS card.

Sadly, the HSCA did not ask the handwriting experts to make that analysis. The SS card was not included in the batch of 63 samples they looked at.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

The HSCA handwriting report was a sham from start to finish Steve...  I hope you don't place too much faith in most of the HSCA work...

I stopped after finding this at the beginning of my Mexico Journey...   

[Steve Thomas]

On 3/2/2018 at 2:06 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Sadly, the HSCA did not ask the handwriting experts to make that analysis. The SS card was not included in the batch of 63 samples they looked at.

Steve Thomas

Here are the two signatures. It's up to us I guess to decide if they were done by the same person.

 

 

Steve Thomas

Edited April 23, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

19 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Here are the two signatures. It's up to us I guess to decide if they were done by the same person.

 

Steve Thomas

Sure does look like it Steve... but why the different "A"  One of the two Oswalds did not usually write in script... (Lee)

Edited March 2, 2018 by David Josephs

[Thomas Graves]

20 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 .......

 

I honestly think those signatures were made by two different people.

There are too many small differences to be by the same guy, imho.

The first "L" is taller than the second "L" in one of them, and vice-versa in the other signature.  Closed "D" in one, open "D" in the other. The different "A"s (as Josephs rightly points out).  Etc.

Just my "two cents" ... if that's permitted. 

(lol)

--  Tommy 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Steve Thomas]

18 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Sure does look like it Steve... but why the different "A"  One of the two Oswalds did not usually write in script... (Lee)

 

David,

 

I was always struck by the offset dot in the i, and the H that doesn't connect.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

All we need now is to determine if the FBI or CIA had access to quality forgers...

Your HSCA in action....

(71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies. Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction. In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies. A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make one fradulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used ; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method.

(72) Document examiners only render a qualified or conditional opinion when working from copies. They stipulate that they have to examine the original before a definite opinion will be made.

(73) Because of problems with the following documents, no definite opinion can be rendered

(74) Item 18 (Nov 15, 1959 letter from Oswald), a halftone copy of a photograph of the original document. This is at least a third generation copy and is not suitable for comparison. (A halftone copy consists of very small dots and not continuous lines.)

(75) Item 29 (US POSTAL ORDER) was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes.

(76) Item 39 (HOTEL REGISTRATION MEXICO Sept 27)  was a photograph taken without a scale so that the magnification or reduction of the writing could not be determined .

(77) Items 40 and 41 (ORIGINAL AND COPY of Visa Application from Cuban Consulate) were very poor quality photographs and lacked scales to determine the size of enlargements .

(78) Item 47 (Letter to HUNT) was a photograph of an out-of-focus facsimile copy. Instead of having clear discernible lines, the copy has indistinct and blurred outlines . Such a muddy and unclear copy gives the appearance that it might have been so made for a purpose.