Lisa Pease on James Angleton

[Gene Kelly]

Cutting to the chase, I believe that Angleton isolated/tortured Nosenko (who apparently was trying to point the spotlight for the JFK hit where it belonged) in order to protect Allen Dulles and the plotters.   To attempt to defend Angleton at this point (with all we know) is weak and unconvincing.  Angleton also lived to regret his allegiances. To quote from  Devils Chessboard:

“Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. Outside of their duplicity, the only thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power.  I did things that, in looking back on my life, I regret.  But I was part of it and loved being in it.”  

He invoked the names of high eminences who had run the CIA in his day - Dulles, Helms and Wisner. These men were “the grand masters”. He took another slow sip from his steaming cup:

“If you were in a room with them, you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell ...  I guess I will see them there soon.”

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Cutting to the chase, I believe that Angleton isolated/tortured Nosenko (who apparently was trying to point the spotlight for the JFK hit where it belonged) in order to protect Allen Dulles and the plotters.   To attempt to defend Angleton at this point (with all we know) is weak and unconvincing.  Angleton also lived to regret his allegiances. To quote from  Devils Chessboard:

“Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. Outside of their duplicity, the only thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power.  I did things that, in looking back on my life, I regret.  But I was part of it and loved being in it.”  

He invoked the names of high eminences who had run the CIA in his day - Dulles, Helms and Wisner. These men were “the grand masters”. He took another slow sip from his steaming cup:

“If you were in a room with them, you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell ...  I guess I will see them there soon.”

 

 

 

Gene,

With all due respect, are you aware that on Tuesday the former Army Intelligence officer who authored "Oswald and the CIA," John Newman, told me on Facebook that he believes Nosenko was a false defector?

Regardless, have you read Tennent H. Bagley's book, "Spy Wars," or his 35-page follow-up PDF, "Ghosts of the Spy Wars"?

(I can tell Mr. Newman has.)

--  Tommy 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Newman would agree with Gene on Angleton. Tommy - you know that. Unless you haven’t read Oswald and the CIA. 

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/2/2018 at 10:43 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Newman would agree with Gene on Angleton. Tommy - you know that. Unless you haven’t read Oswald and the CIA. 

 

Angleton didn't torture Nosenko.  Nobody tortured Nosenko.  Yes, Nosenko claimed later that he'd been tortured.  But as it turns out, Nosenko was a false defector.  (If you don't believe me, read Bagley's "Spy Wars" and "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," or ask John Newman, who has.)

What the heck would you expect false defector Nosenko to say, once he'd eventually been "cleared" by gullible, agenda-driven people who were implicitly expected by Helms, and then Colby, and then Turner to "clear" him, you know, so that ops (which had practically ground to a halt) could finally get "back to normal"? 

That his bed was nice and comfy, the food was great, the reading materials marvelous, and his interrogators had been very, very kind to him?

 

Factoid:  Angleton, who was chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Division (CI), didn't put Nosenko in virtual solitary confinement for interrogation purposes, David Murphy, chief of Soviet Russia Division, did.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid2.htm

 

--  Tommy 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Perfect cognitive dissonance - Newman thinks Nosenko was fake defector, and still thinks Angleton was the mastermind behind the plot to assassinate JFK and set Oswald up as the patsy. Does your theory that Oswald was a Soviet agent preclude this possibility? Oswald’s provocations in New Orleans, such as setting up a fake FPCC branch and engaging with DRE in a street confrontation, seem more aligned with smearing FPCC than supporting Castro. 

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 5:24 PM, Steve Cearfoss said:

Lisa mentions author 'Bill Davy'   is that the correct spelling

https://www.amazon.com/Let-Justice-Be-Done-Investigation/dp/0966971604/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520127694&sr=1-1&keywords=let+justice+be+done+william+davy

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/3/2018 at 8:35 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Perfect cognitive dissonance - Newman thinks Nosenko was fake defector, and still thinks Angleton was the mastermind behind the plot to assassinate JFK and set Oswald up as the patsy. Does your theory that Oswald was a Soviet agent preclude this possibility? Oswald’s provocations in New Orleans, such as setting up a fake FPCC branch and engaging with DRE in a street confrontation, seem more aligned with smearing FPCC than supporting Castro. 

 

Paul,

 

With all due respect, cognitive dissonance on whose part?

I guess the fact that Newman agrees with Angleton that Nosenko was a false defector, after all, yet believes that Angleton somehow masterminded the assassination, can only mean one thing: that Newman believes that the evil, evil CIA, rather than those very nice Ruskies (who evidently could be very devious sometimes), killed JFK.

 

--  Tommy 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Ron Bulman]

This is a great interview.  A few weeks ago Jim mentioned Ms. Pease Probe articles on a thread about Jeff Morley's book Ghost.  I thought I remembered reading her name in conjunction with Angleton and looked in The Assassinations.  I'd forgotten I've read the two part article.  It's been roughly 10 years and much like Oswald and the CIA by Mr. Newman, read about the same time, much of it was Greek to me then.  Not that I pretended to comprehend the information completely yet, but maybe a little better now.  I started rereading the essay's in the book but set it aside and had not got back to it.  So, this updated synopsis is excellent IMO.

I don't remember reading of Angleton's back ground checks on the jurors in Garrisons Shaw-Bertrand trial.  Taken together with the daily discussion in meetings at CIA HQ regarding the status of Garrisons investigation and trial among other aspects of their involvement it's quite incriminating, to me at least.

Never read about the concept of Oswald's diary as a "Soviet realities report" for the CIA.  But, from the little I've read from the "diary" and about it it's logical and makes sense.  BTW I read somewhere once someone's though that the diary seems more like an after the fact compilation from notes rather than written chronologically, day by day.  Thoughts anyone?

Never thought of the Red Cross as a CIA front to pay Oswald while in the USSR but that makes sense too.  The Red Cross was on the forefront of response to international crisis's both natural and political.  That the CIA would have people involved in front line analysis of such situations is natural itself.   That they could be used in other situations is also natural, most probably not aware they were being used.

"Oswald's mail was opened whether he was on HTLINGUAL or not"  I.E. before/after he was officially on the list.  Not questioning Lisa's statement here, just wondering what it's based on. I'm pessimistic and think Oswald was sent to Russia by our government (maybe in an operation controlled by Angleton).  Thus they would have monitored All of his communications the Whole time he was there. But the Devil's in the details. 

Though I'd read somewhere sometime that the Oswald's had a one day layover in Europe on their trip to the US where personnel were in place for a possible debriefing.

I've read a little over the years about the 10 +/- defectors over a (?) 2 year period in the late 50's.  Oswald, Webster, and it seems like one other by name that I can't remember at the moment.  Info on them and the rest would be appreciated by anyone (legit info only, trolls!).

I look forward to "A Lie Too big to Fail".

Wish I was a fly on the wall at Mr. Aguilar's  tonight.  Maybe someone will fill us in on the high points of the discussions? 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Never thought of the Red Cross as a CIA front to pay Oswald while in the USSR but that makes sense too.  The Red Cross was on the forefront of response to international crisis's both natural and political.  That the CIA would have people involved in front line analysis of such situations is natural itself.   That they could be used in other situations is also natural, most probably not aware they were being used.

 

Ron,

 

Looked at through that lens, it gives new meaning to Oswald's instructions to Marina in the "Walker note" to go to the Red Cross for help if he should get caught.

 

Steve Thomas