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Steve Thomas

Cold War played out right in front of me

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2 hours ago, Gary Murr said:

You are correct, David. The issue of this report came up during the March 31, 1964 testimony session of Robert Frazier. The FBI had acquired a copy of the report early in their investigation and initially SIFAR did not want the report made "public." Unfortunately I am busy at the moment working in another area of this subject matter, but off the top of my head, if you read the Frazier testimony session you will see Earl Warren's reticence to make this document a part of the Commission's record. Eventually an arrangement is worked out with SIFAR and a copy with "deletions" was made available. In truth, Frazier took a copy of the SIFAR report with him when he met with Melvin Eisenberg for his five hour pre-testimony session prior to his March 31 testimony session. This document was funnelled to the FBI etc via the CIA. You will note that the document is "signed" on the last page by one Daniel M. Presland, an individual as Bill Simpich reveals in State Secret [Chapter 5] was actually one of many pseudonym's used by William Harvey while working at Staff D.

FWIW, I have much more on this entire SIFAR document in my forthcoming book.

Gary

 

Gary and David.

 

Could you boil this down for me?

 

Are you saying that this is an American document, written by and American person, and that the rifle being displayed was a 7.35 caliber and not a 6.5?

I had always thought the rifle came through Interarmco, but this document says it came through Adams? Or it might be one of the tens of thousand floating around on the black market?

 

Steve Thomas

 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

I assume that books focused on Marina discuss the following shocking part of Marina's WC testimony.

And that is Marina's attempt at suicide in the spring of 1963.

 

 

Joe,

 

By any chance, have you ever come across any corroboration for this, perhaps in someone else's testimony, like maybe expressing concern about a "sudden illness",  or minutes of a Commission Executive session, or anything like that?

 

Steve Thomas

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8 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gary and David.

 

Could you boil this down for me?

 

Are you saying that this is an American document, written by and American person, and that the rifle being displayed was a 7.35 caliber and not a 6.5?

I had always thought the rifle came through Interarmco, but this document says it came through Adams? Or it might be one of the tens of thousand floating around on the black market?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Hi Steve:

A quick response from me on this query. The alleged rifle of the crimes of November 22, 1963, did not come through Interarmco. Whether C2766 was actually involved in the death of a president is debatable and David has probably spent as much time on this subject matter as anyone. Interarmco "lost" the bidding war for 500,000+ Carcano's, at least the specific bidding war outlined in the SIFAR document. Interarmco did sell both 7.35 and [eventually] 6.5 caliber Carcano's. As I understand the specific report under discussion herein, the "Dispatch" classified as secret was generated out of Rome by the CIA Chief of Station in Rome, based upon information in a report constructed/released on November 28, 1963, a report generated by a party redacted from the document, but a report nonetheless made as a result of a request by then Italian Defense Minister, Guilio Andreotti. Who is directly responsible for the "translation" wired via the CIA is not known, at least by myself.

Gary

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10 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:

Hi Steve:

A quick response from me on this query. The alleged rifle of the crimes of November 22, 1963, did not come through Interarmco. Whether C2766 was actually involved in the death of a president is debatable and David has probably spent as much time on this subject matter as anyone. Interarmco "lost" the bidding war for 500,000+ Carcano's, at least the specific bidding war outlined in the SIFAR document. Interarmco did sell both 7.35 and [eventually] 6.5 caliber Carcano's. As I understand the specific report under discussion herein, the "Dispatch" classified as secret was generated out of Rome by the CIA Chief of Station in Rome, based upon information in a report constructed/released on November 28, 1963, a report generated by a party redacted from the document, but a report nonetheless made as a result of a request by then Italian Defense Minister, Guilio Andreotti. Who is directly responsible for the "translation" wired via the CIA is not known, at least by myself.

Gary

Gary,

 

Thank you. I figure the "party" who generated the report was probably the Italian Intelligence Agency, but Paz would probably know maore about that than I do.

 

One last question. Do you know what the WE in the top left hand corner of page 1 stands for? I thought, Western Europe, but that's just a guess.

 

Steve Thomas

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

 

By any chance, have you ever come across any corroboration for this, perhaps in someone else's testimony, like maybe expressing concern about a "sudden illness",  or minutes of a Commission Executive session, or anything like that?

 

Steve Thomas

Steve, I myself have not come across any corroboration regards Marina's suicide attempt in the Spring of 1963.

However, the Marina Oswald WC testimony record as stated seems straight forward. 

I accessed this on a site titled "JFK Assassination Witness Page."

It should be easily corroborated ( or not? ) just by going back to this question and answer exchange in the official Marina WC testimony text via your own preferred web search choice for viewing such.

Do you doubt this record of the Marina Oswald WC question and answer exchange?

If the Marina suicide attempt testimony is verified, would you have any thoughts and speculations as to it's import in the Lee and Marina relationship story?

Edited by Joe Bauer

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28 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

One last question. Do you know what the WE in the top left hand corner of page 1 stands for? I thought, Western Europe, but that's just a guess.

 

What if I open a new thread on the Carcano and Andreotti? :)

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1 hour ago, Gary Murr said:

A quick response from me on this query

Gary,

it seems to me you are still not answering to my question about what else you know on SIFAR that you said you are going to publish in your book

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30 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Do you doubt this record of the Marina Oswald WC question and answer exchange?

If the Marina suicide attempt testimony is verified, would you have any thoughts and speculations as to it's import in the Lee and Marina relationship story?

Joe,

 

No. I don't doubt it. I just don't remember running across it before.

The site I usually use for witness testimony is this one: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

mostly because I can cut and paste easily, and it's easy to scroll down several pages at once, rather than trying to go through one page at a time like you have to do with pdf files.

 

As far as its import, well, a lot of different people attempt suicide for a lot of different reasons. I'd have to look at it in context, and see what else was going on at the time. Was this in New Orleans, or Dallas? Did she take a bunch of sleeping pills: Cut her wrists? Tried to hang herself? Were the police called? Did she go to the hospital?

I would also have to decide if it was a serious attempt or not, or if it was just a move to get attention. For example, I don't believe that Lee's "attempt at suicide" in Russia was an attempted suicide at all.

 

Steve Thomas

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

I don't believe that Lee's "attempt at suicide" in Russia was an attempted suicide at all.

For sure it was not

Edited by Paz Marverde

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Posted (edited)

Steve, Marina's admitting such a serious act no matter by what means says so much about her state of mind with Lee, at least in the Spring of 1963.

Knowing more about this admission and action by Marina is very important.

Surprised this part of her story has received so little study.

I've read much of Marina's testimony both in the WC hearings and the HSCA.

She contradicts herself so much.  He relationship with Lee was so complicated.

I honestly believe however, that Marina felt relief when Lee Oswald was killed.

In another testimony statement Marina says of Lee " He was a sick man."

The craziness and fear and unhappiness and instability and arguments she went through with Lee was finally over.

She also soon found herself on the receiving end of more donated monies that she could have never imagined married to Lee. Beyond her wildest dreams. Just one contract signing with Life brought her $20,000 minus her lawyer/managers cut. That was separate from the tens of thousands she received from concerned American citizens.

Life was much better for Marina after Lee's death than before.

I also never remember seeing her cry after Lee was killed with one exception being at his funeral.

Marina and Lee's more innocent life ended when they arrived in the U.S. and the reality of poverty hit them hard.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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52 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Steve, Marina's admitting such a serious act no matter by what means says so much about her state of mind with Lee, at least in the Spring of 1963.

Knowing more about this admission and action by Marina is very important.

Surprised this part of her story has received so little study.

I've read much of Marina's testimony both in the WC hearings and the HSCA.

She contradicts herself so much.  He relationship with Lee was so complicated.

I honestly believe however, that Marina felt relief when Lee Oswald was killed.

In another testimony statement Marina says of Lee " He was a sick man."

The craziness and fear and unhappiness and unstability and arguments she went through with Lee was finally over.

She also soon found herself on the receiving end of more donated monies that she could have never imagined married to Lee. Beyond her wildest dreams. Just one contract signing with Life brought her $20,000 minus her lawyer/managers cut. That was separate from the tens of thousands she received from concerned American citizens.

Life was much better for Marina after Lee's death than before.

I also never remember seeing her cry after Lee was killed with one exception being at his funeral.

Marina and Lee's more innocent life ended when they arrived in the U.S. and the reality of poverty hit them hard.

hi Joe

The operative description with Marina Oswald is "contradictory". She presented a hand-written autobiography of her relationship with Lee Oswald to the Warren Commission (CE993). It mentions little of the presumed beatings, arguments, suicide attempts etc, and instead portrays Oswald as a gentle soul who loved classical music. So which side of the contradiction to believe? I don't think anything she said can be taken literally.

Here is the translation of CE993:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=610&tab=page

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Jeff, just read Marina's autobiography.

So much that was left unsaid. Volumes.

Interesting her comments regarding Lee's fate of a quick death and how this was a just end for someone guilty of such a sinful act as killing JFK ( if Lee was guilty of this ) and better than the electric chair in suffering.

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8 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

hi Joe

The operative description with Marina Oswald is "contradictory". She presented a hand-written autobiography of her relationship with Lee Oswald to the Warren Commission (CE993). It mentions little of the presumed beatings, arguments, suicide attempts etc, and instead portrays Oswald as a gentle soul who loved classical music. So which side of the contradiction to believe? I don't think anything she said can be taken literally.

Here is the translation of CE993:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=610&tab=page

Jeff,

 

I started reading this narrative, and was immediately struck by how similar it is in linguistic style to Oswald's Daily Diary. Read his entry for October 21st, when he attempts "suicide" to the sound of violins playing. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf

 

One other thing struck me. On pp. 626-627, she writes of moving to Neely St. after New Years, and then writes of meeting Ruth Paine.

Officially, she met Ruth on February 22nd, prior to her Neely St. move.

Is Marina once again putting herself on Neely St. in January, when they didn't actually move there until March?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve Thomas

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Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2018 at 10:56 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Gary and David.

 

Could you boil this down for me?

 

Are you saying that this is an American document, written by and American person, and that the rifle being displayed was a 7.35 caliber and not a 6.5?

I had always thought the rifle came through Interarmco, but this document says it came through Adams? Or it might be one of the tens of thousand floating around on the black market?

 

Steve Thomas

 

I understand it Steve...  The report is from the ROME CIA station (William Harvey) after a report was compiled for Giulio Andreotti.

I have to assume that the CIA and Italian "XXXX Service" would share info...

Couple things of note...  I am still not convinced the rifle DAY carries from the TSBD is CE139...  the markings are not there...

 

 

The problem with the MAUSER designation and the scope... is that the scope covers where the rifle markings are...  and the MAUSER designation was used to account for there NOT being a clip... since it uses a stripper clip... and not a full metal clip...

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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