General Walker, Lee Harvey Oswald and Dallas Officials

[Paul Trejo]

19 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

... perhaps because Oswald mentions unemployment in the letter and there is a limited set of days this can mean, taking his JCS attendance records into account?  

His last day at work was the 6th, wasn't it?

...JCS apparently mails him his last check, which in any case is cashed on 12 April.

This is as much as I can see for Mary's guess.  I'm not advocating her guess, btw, just trying to consider it.

 

Jason

Jason,

You are right that two weeks difference in this enormous saga is very little.

The mistake could be mine.

I'll table this, and presume it's my mistake for now.  In that case, Jason, yes, you've made yet another discovery, i.e. that James Hosty presumed LHO was telling the truth in his letter to the FPCC that he had already handed out FPCC handbills in Dallas in early April or late March.

The FBI informant told Alan Belmont that this was a lie, but that fact came out later.  Hosty fell for LHO's lie to the FPCC in his letter of 16Apr1963 (per Mary Ferrell).

Good job.

OK -- where does this leave us?  We now have LHO thinking about the FPCC before he goes to New Orleans!

This rattles my CT, but no big deal.  We go wherever the evidence leads.

Next we must ask the same question that Mary Ferrell asked -- Where does LHO get the idea to create his own FPCC movement, and lie to the FPCC about it?

Was Guy Banister already in LHO's life while he was still in Dallas?

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 26, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Where does LHO get the idea to create his own FPCC movement, and lie to the FPCC about it?

Hi Paul,

From my PoV, this is potentially a question that, if answered correctly, solves the assassination.

Isn't most of what we've done over the last month showing that the cops in Dallas are the ground crew and central casting on 22NOV63?   Walt Brown calls them the Blue Death in his book, Treachery in Dallas.   Maybe they can tell us more.

«Jason's Query™»  The report Sgt Harkness writes in May 1964 is a clue, right?   Why so long after the deaths of JFK and Oswald does the DPD suddenly produce a report all but documenting Oswald's FPCC activity in Dallas before he leaves for New Orleans?

Brainstorming now: so in May of 64 they've silenced Oswald and Ruby.   The Warren Commission is generally cooperating in their "investigation."   There's already a boatload of evidence showing that LHO is a commie nutcase and a Castro disciple.  Although Hosty is desperately trying to prove he had no reason to see Oswald as a threat, there is no evidence* that Oswald was ever even on DPD's radar.  No one's saying that the DPD should've been watching Oswald; this charge is made against Hosty and the FBI.

If I am Chief Curry, what am I getting nervous about that makes me tell Sgt Harkness to retroactively report Oswald was a FPCC agitator a year earlier in Dallas?

 

Jason

 

* officially, Oswald is unknown to Dallas police until 22NOV63.   One man says otherwise: General Edwin Walker!

Edited April 26, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

...If I am Chief Curry, what am I getting nervous about that makes me tell Sgt Harkness to retroactively report Oswald was a FPCC agitator a year earlier in Dallas?

Jason

Jason,

Speaking of DPD Chief Jesse Curry -- there's a strange story told by General Walker about him, with regard to Curry's book about the JFK Assassination, which is largely the Dallas Police Radio Log, with his commentary.    It's a paperback with 133 pages.   The full title is: Retired Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry reveals his personal JFK Assassination File (1969).

Anyway, the story by General Walker goes something like this (very briefly).   The year was 1969.   Muscle-headed detective, Bradford Angers came to General Walker's door, and said he had a delivery from Chief Curry.  Walker let him in the house, sat him down and heard his message.   He handed General Walker a package -- a manuscript with Curry's book.  The message was that Chief Curry expected General Walker to give him an endorsement, and $10,000 to help him publish the book.  

Without hesitating, General Walker quickly scanned the book for content.  "This is all a bunch of lies!" exclaimed Walker.  "You can tell Jesse Curry that he won't get any endorsement from me for this pack of lies!   And money!   You can tell him to forget it!"

Walker explained to the Friends of Walker that only a CT in which the Communists killed JFK, and Lee Harvey Oswald was a pawn in their game, was acceptable to him.   By giving in to the Warren Commission Lone Nut theory, DPD Chief Jesse Curry showed a lack of backbone!   What a sellout!"

So -- according to this story, there is a clash going on.   Walker truly believed that Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested by Jesse Curry's men on April 10, 1963, and set free around midnight.   He demanded from Jesse Curry many times over the years -- why did you let LHO go?   Who was his accomplice?  Why won't you help me find him?  He is running around loose!   Walker's envoy, (Morse or Morris), sought the same answer from Marina Oswald in January 1964.

So -- yes -- General Walker was more than a little bit paranoid.  He was somewhat off-balance.   Jesse Curry thought of him as a kook -- but IMHO they had a deal going before the JFK Assassination.   Everything fell apart afterwards, IMHO, because the DPD would not stick to the Communist Plot outcome.   That's my reading.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 27, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

MARY FERRELL asked:  Where does LHO get the idea to create his own FPCC movement in early April, 1963?

PAUL TREJO added:  ...and lie to the FPCC about it?!

Hi Paul,

From my PoV, this is potentially a question that, if answered correctly, solves the assassination.

Isn't most of what we've done over the last month showing that the cops in Dallas are the ground crew and central casting on 22NOV63?   Walt Brown calls them the Blue Death in his book, Treachery in Dallas.   Maybe they can tell us more...

 Jason

Hi Jason,

Yes, I think that the Dallas Police can tell us more.   Now that we have tentatively agreed with Walt Brown, that the Dallas Police and Deputies were the ground crew that ran logistics for the JFK Assassination and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald in their custody (by using this local pimp, Jack Ruby) -- now I want to know the Leadership.

I think you're correct that the WC testimony and affidavits, as well as later interviews by Dallas Officers can continue to feed us clues.   For example, why does DPD Sergeant David Harkness submit a report in 1964 that Lee Harvey Oswald was a supporter of the FPCC in Dallas in 1963?   What is that all about?

Why do we find, for example, a small number of Dallas Police and Deputies who just happen to go to the Grassy Knoll, to the TSBD, to Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, to Ruth Paine's home and to LHO's rooming house?   There were several hundred Dallas Officers available who could make a dragnet -- yet it was this small number who did most of the discovery.

They should have been asked many more questions by the Warren Commission, IMHO.  Yet what they told us gives us clues.

Why does Harkness back-pedal regarding the FPCC in Dallas?   He wasn't trying to cover for Chief Curry -- in my opinion -- he was trying to cover for James Hosty.  Or rather -- Jesse Curry was trying to cover for James Hosty.   Just to take some of that tremendous pressure off of Hosty.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 27, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

 Paul Trejo said:

Where does LHO get the idea to create his own FPCC movement, and lie to the FPCC about it? 

8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

From my PoV, this is potentially a question that, if answered correctly, solves the assassination.

 

Jason

I agree,.....

James "McCord worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. In 1961, and under his direction, a counter-intelligence program was launched against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee." (Wikipedia; Oswald and the CIA by John Newman p.138)"

 

 

[Jason Ward]

36 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

that the Dallas Police and Deputies were the ground crew that ran logistics for the JFK Assassination and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald

That makes the DPD liars and conspirators.  With that in mind, I think I will consider this further:

47 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

  Walker truly believed that Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested by Jesse Curry's men on April 10, 1963, and set free around midnight

I'm afraid my marriage to open-mindedness means I have to ask: Maybe Walker's telling something close to the truth here?   Alternatively, maybe he's hating on the DPD because of real or fabricated evidence he knows exists?  Would he really bang on about this for 30 years if there was not one ounce somewhere in evidence supporting his Oswald-was-let-go CT?   

Is it possible Oswald was to be arrested on 10APR63, according to plan?   I know this disturbs your CT and Lone-Nut motivation of LHO on 10APR, but I think I'm having to accept that LHO is in some kind of conspiracy starting no later than March - because he's busily manufacturing patsy-evidence which will later be used to convict him in the court of public opinion.

 According to Marina's testimony, Oswald made plans around never coming home the night of 10April - which is the same thing he did on the morning of 22NOV63.   A Pattern here?   I am not in the CT-advocacy role, but I think I will look into this and of course I hope you will address it.   

Of course I am aware of your CT detail that has Walker getting wind of Oswald-as-attempted-assasin through the Hosty-Surrey-de Mohrenschildt connection (and the Russian couple, forgot their names - who brought this to the FBI after Easter Sunday 1963).   This makes sense.   But what doesn't make sense is why Walker would from then on accuse the DPD of letting Oswald go.  Saying Walker is crazy or paranoid is too easy.  It's a cheap way out!  No, I don't think the Kennedys ordered Oswald to shoot Walker, but I will tentatively entertain the idea that Walker only made these claims for decades because of some evidence that the DPD let Oswald go - evidence that could have been real or planted, pre-planned or accidental.    

VERY VERY Speculative thought -not even a test hypothesis- : Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting of 10APR63, either as Lone Nut, fake, conspiratorial, or as patsy, was known by the DPD on 10APR63.   Ironically, me, you, and Walker share one strong belief: the DPD are liars and almost always conspiratorially manipulating Oswald-related evidence.  Even if your CT is 100% correct that Walker is the ringleader of the assassination, Walker is clearly pissed off at the DPD about Oswald even before 22NOV63....IMO.

 

Jason

 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Without hesitating, General Walker quickly scanned the book for content.  "This is all a bunch of lies!" exclaimed Walker.  "You can tell Jesse Curry that he won't get any endorsement from me for this pack of lies!   And money!   You can tell him to forget it!"

That's a very interesting scene to imagine - Walker flying into a rage about the dirty lies of DPD Police Chief Curry!

I think I'm going to take Walker's side as a trial point of view, just to see where it leads.   We already know Curry is not a purveyor of truth.    So we all agree with General Walker on this detail.   I am going to assign Walker the extremist hat, but I'm not going to call him paranoid or insane; so forgive me but I will now explore the possibility that, as for all of us, Walker's lies are purposeful and reasonably well-thought out in a rational mind.   

Jason

Edited April 27, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Michael Clark]

27 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

 

....I'm afraid my marriage to open-mindedness means I have to ask:

Jason

 

That is disingenuous, at best. You choose to exclusively investigate the little niche of Dallas, in this very thread. You ignore anyone who brings good evidence arguments and questions to this debate.

 

And...

 

52 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Jim, .....

IMO from what you've posted, all evidence is made to fit into your pre-determined CT, and where evidence contradicts your CT instead of admitting it, you make up stuff, .....

.......

Jason

The company kept, in this thread, one person, Trejo is THE most notorious poster here for "making stuff up" and providing NO evidence. Members have largely left the two of you alone, here, for very practical reasons. I just stopped in for a look, and I thought I should drop off a reality check.

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

...

Why does Harkness back-pedal regarding the FPCC in Dallas?   He wasn't trying to cover for Chief Curry -- in my opinion -- he was trying to cover for James Hosty.  Or rather -- Jesse Curry was trying to cover for James Hosty.   Just to take some of that tremendous pressure off of Hosty.

...

Maybe.

But does the Harkness memo take pressure off Hosty?

Hosty marches proud and loud through sworn testimony that there was never any such thing as the FPCC in Dallas.  Oswald was always a meager, bush-league joke of a communist when he was under Hosty's watch in Dallas, Hosty desperately wants us to believe.   

....rather late in the game, May of 64, Harkness starts saying that Oswald passed out literature in downtown Dallas a year earlier, which Oswald himself nominally confirmed in a letter to the FPCC NY - so wouldn't it be better for Harkness to just stay silent if he wants to help Hosty?   

Anyway, it's hard to know who's lying.   But we can universally agree on what these people WANTED us to believe:

1. HOSTY: No FPCC or pro-Castro activity in Dallas; Oswald is a silly character of no consequence when Hosty knew of him.
2. OSWALD: Wants the FPCC (and all historians?) to know he has been working on Castro's behalf in Dallas.  LHO always carefully documents in writing his flamboyant Oswald-as-commie activities to national communist headquarters.
3. HARKNESS/CURRY: Initially and elsewhere generally agree with Hosty's portrait of Oswald as puny non-person during the 62-early 63 time in Dallas - but later, inexplicably, come to agree with Oswald that Oswald was doing his ¡VIVA FIDEL! show in Dallas, before he left for New Orleans.

So really, I think even if we don't know the truth, we could benefit from trying to understand the versions of the truth these characters want us to believe.  maybe???

Jason

Edited April 27, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Michael Clark]

I thing the biggest wart on the face of this thread, and of course it gets ignored, is Earle Cabell, the CIA officer, Dallas Mayor, and brother of CIA Deputy Director and Air Force General, Charles Cabell, 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Michael Clark

[Paul Brancato]

10 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

That is disingenuous, at best. You choose to exclusively investigate the little niche of Dallas, in this very thread. You ignore anyone who brings good evidence arguments and questions to this debate.

 

And...

 

The company kept, in this thread, one person, Trejo is THE most notorious poster here for "making stuff up" and providing NO evidence. Members have largely left the two of you alone, here, for very practical reasons. I just stopped in for a look, and I thought I should drop off a reality check.

Michael Clark - a voice crying out in the wilderness. The two of them can put us in ignore, but anyone else reading the thread sees what we write. Whenever one of us brings out anything indicating that a CIA agent like McCord may be pulling strings, or that anyone official and higher up might be involved in this conspiracy they ignore it. The documents that Ward inserts are often interesting. But the two of them start with one bias which limits their investigation. And that is that guys like Dulles, Helms, Angleton, Harvey from CIA, or or Army Colonels and Generals, or guys in the WH situation room, or Johnson and Hoover - anything like that, could have ever contemplated murdering a president. They say there is no evidence, but they’re not even looking for such evidence. Who could argue that Dallas officials like Sorrels, or ultra rightists in Dallas, might have been involved? None of us. We are not the myopic ones. 

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

That's a very interesting scene to imagine - Walker flying into a rage about the dirty lies of DPD Police Chief Curry!

I think I'm going to take Walker's side as a trial point of view, just to see where it leads.   We already know Curry is not a purveyor of truth.    So we all agree with General Walker on this detail.   I am going to assign Walker the extremist hat, but I'm not going to call him paranoid or insane; so forgive me but I will now explore the possibility that, as for all of us, Walker's lies are purposeful and reasonably well-thought out in a rational mind.   

Jason

Jason,

I will go along with your guesswork here -- to see where it leads.   Let's get down to brass tacks, though -- I will show you the document itself from the "Friends of Walker" newsletter that General Walker sent out twice monthly (IIRC).   It's called, Police Chief Curry's Boo Boo.

In this rant, General Walker is not merely angry with Chief Curry, but is also accusing him of blackmail -- very openly.   Please tell me what you think of this rare, "Friends of Walker" newsletter.   It's only two pages long.

http://www.pet880.com/images/19691212_Curry_Boo_Boo.pdf

All best,
--Paul

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

. Earle Cabell, CIA agent, Dallas Mayor, spreading the Lone Nut Myth, hours after the assassination of JFK. 

He sounds very remakably like John Connally in his description of the event. 

 

 

 

[Jason Ward]

45 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

I will go along with your guesswork here -- to see where it leads.   Let's get down to brass tacks, though -- I will show you the document itself from the "Friends of Walker" newsletter that General Walker sent out twice monthly (IIRC).   It's called, Police Chief Curry's Boo Boo.

In this rant, General Walker is not merely angry with Chief Curry, but is also accusing him of blackmail -- very openly.   Please tell me what you think of this rare, "Friends of Walker" newsletter.   It's only two pages long

...

Paul, that is a great piece of evidence. 

Unless you tell me to take it down, I am providing Walker's newsletter in this post.   

My initial thoughts are dominated by the reaction that whoever wrote this is a powerful writer.   He has a CT and explains it better than most anyone here in CT-land!   He writes better than most graduate students.   He moves the narrative along quickly and gets across the facts without childish adjectives.  He's not saying merely what he wants to say as a selfish outlet for his emotions, he's presenting his case in terms likely to appeal to a reader - this habit is hard for most people to learn.  I will stop short of saying he has the pithy, economical word mastery of Hemingway and instead conclude that Walker is the best writer of anyone in the assassination saga, which demonstrates a formidable intellect.

Do you sense I am about to start a General Walker fan club?!?

Ok, now, with my man-crush on General Edwin Walker exposed and documented for all eternity on the everlasting internet, I will get down to brass tacks, as you suggest.   These tacks will appear in my next post so that this post is manageable in size.

{unrelated side question: Walker is against the Vietnam War, is he not?}

 

 "Police Chief Curry's Boo-Boo." 

An essay by General Edwin Walker in the Friends of Walker newsletter.  1969. 

source: The University of Texas at Austin, Center for American History.

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

I will go along with your guesswork here -- to see where it leads.   

...

Hi Paul,

I personally don't like building a CT so we don't really have to pursue this much, unless I happen to come up with more evidence.   I will look at officer Hill later tonight or tomorrow, in keeping with the plan to focus on the cops first.

I think I will just signpost this as one of the places where I think there is a fork in the road of uncertainty.  

Here's my point of contention: Walker is bat-sh*t crazy if he's making up his claim that the DPD knew about Oswald on 10APR63 without one scintilla of evidence to back him up on this claim.    I don't think he's bat-sh*t crazy.

This doesn't mean that your CT is disturbed IMO.  There's planted, modified, or ignored evidence everywhere the DPD is in this story.   Oswald could have gone out hunting General Walker that night - and the DPD could still have made up or pre-fabricated evidence against him.  The interesting thing is that Walker claims for the rest of his life that the DPD didn't make public their evidence - whether the evidence was real, fake, modified, or in place before 10APR63.   Why would Walker do this?    

One of the benefits to all CT-ers of calling someone dishonest or calling a piece of evidence fraudulent is that for evermore they anoint themselves with the ability to admit or deny evidence based entirely on whether it supports their CT.   I would never accuse you of doing that, and you said a few posts up that if your CT is rattled based on good evidence, so bet it.  That attitude is why we get along so well!   

Even so, I have to modestly suggest: We must first try to take Walker at his word.  Maybe you feel you've already been through this and it's a waste of time - fine.  But I have to convince myself.   We have to find a way within the bounds of reason to make his story work, if for no other reason than to prove he's a fraud.  The same is true of all the witnesses.   

The more power we give ourselves to unilaterally certify honesty or disregard alleged dishonesty, the weaker and weaker our investigation becomes.   In your case, I might humbly suggest we can't just write off Walker as lying - that is what the CIA-did-it faction does as a habit whenever they see testimony they don't like.   If we can dig up a weight of evidence showing Walker as dishonest, it's good for the Walker-did-it CT.   If we can show that his claim that the DPD knew about Oswald on 10APR63 is unreasonable or far-fetched, fine.

^^^sanctimonious lecture concludes here, now stepping down from my high horse^^^

 

[===+++===+++===+++===]

 

Assuming General Walker's essay in the previous post is honest.....

1. The prime thesis Walker presents is blackmail.   Curry is blackmailing Walker.    Curry wants 10 grand or ...something?... is going to happen with Walker's file currently at Curry's house.
2. Some of the music Walker wants us to hear is that a pissant little errand boy is blackmailing the Great General Walker - and how insulted Walker is that he is made to converse with errand boys instead of the cowardly boss (Curry).
3. The South America references are IMO irrelevant.   
4. General Walker is spinning an assassination Conspiracy Theory. He's virtually naming Dallas Police Chief Curry as the guilty party for the dishonest fraud of calling Oswald a Lone Nut.  Furthermore, Curry is double burdened by hiding the truth not only of the Kennedy assassination, but, of equal importance in Walker's mind, the attempted assassination of Walker himself on 10APR63.
5. In addition to managing the cover-up, Walker is almost accusing Chief Curry of helping to kill the president, or at least of letting the assassination go on unimpeded.   
6. Walker says Oswald's end at the hands of Jack Ruby is of "consequence" and implies all this is a conspiracy
7. The 2nd-to-the-last paragraph in Walker's letter is a provocative masterpiece.  Yes, my man-crush on Walker's writing is showing again....  This is meant to explain the entire JFK assassination and coverup, I believe.   At first glance we might be tempted to say Walker is calling Marina a dishonest tool of the WC - but I don't think he is.   There are many layers in this paragraph and many more logical backstories that have to be true if what he writes here is true.   
8. It's important to remember, I think, that to Walker the communists, the CIA, the Kennedys, indeed much of the US government are all the same people, on the same page, and with the same goals.

 

One of the main questions I have is - what can Curry do with Walker's police file that would compel Walker to pay blackmail?

Ok, Paul, there's a lot here.  I just think we can take notice of how you and Walker ironically share the exact same opinion of the DPD. 

Is Walker a diabolical genius able to weave fact and fiction together to suit his purposes?   Is he a paranoid pre-Trump figure that is sure the FBI, mainstream media, etc. are out to get him?   Or does he have a very good reason for complaining about the DPD not tagging Oswald in April for the Walker attack?   Your CT might not be disturbed here, Walker may have had no knowledge of Oswald on 10APR63 ....as suggested by the McDuff side show - why would Walker initially accuse McDuff if all along Oswald was known -and intended to be known- as the Walker almost-assassin?

QUERY: On page 230 of Walt Brown's Treachery in Dallas, it says that the Voshinins told author Dick Russell that the FBI knew of a link between Oswald and the 10APR63 attack on Walker - because the Voshinins told them of the link.  If true, the FBI would immediately inform the DPD of the lead.   Possible liars are: the Voshinins, Hosty and the FBI, or the DPD.   *someone's not telling the truth here - who is it??   Why not cast a suspicious eye first at the all-time champions of mendacity - the DPD?

If the Voshinins are honest - then I say there's a good chance General Walker is right in claiming the DPD knew of Oswald's role on 10APR63 or within a week.   If he Voshinins are right then the FBI and/or Hosty now must be seen as Oswald's protector in the Dallas Spring of 63, right?...who in turn are able to quash the DPD investigation of the Walker shooting, right?  I was already suspicious of Hosty protecting (or at least refusing to acknowledge) Oswald because he absurdly claims he chose not to interview him in the Mar-Apr period out of concern for the Oswald's marriage.   Convenient!

HYPOTHETICAL: The Voshinins are telling the truth, they linked Oswald to the Walker shooting and told the FBI, who in turn told the DPD.  Somewhere in this law enforcement chain a leak was given to Walker, who knew about Oswald at some point well before the official discovery of he mea culpa letter at Ruth Paine's house post-assassination.    The implications of the FBI and DPD knowing Oswald shot at Walker are profound.   We know more than one person knew before 22NOV63 of the link between Oswald and the Walker shooting because of the John T Martin film and the German newspaper article.....

 

Jason

 

Marina's testimony is actually too messy to fit well into the Lone Nut theory - so I say she is telling the truth.  IMO, Oswald's twice-performed ritual of telling Marina what to do if he doesn't come home that day tells us a lot.  Oswald tells Marina on 10APR63 and 22NOV63 how to manage without him.

The New York Times, January 1, 1964.

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Jason Ward