Focus your research on Zapruder, he is the key

[David G. Healy]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

 

[...]

But to think that a REAL (11/22/63) film exists that shows the things David Josephs mentioned is laughable. No "real" film of that nature exists. And it's humorous to think that anyone could possibly think it does.

 

 

amazing, even mockup, reenactment films lie.... all those folks waving and cheering along Elm Street. Where do you see that in the extant Zapruder film, Dave? It ain't there, Bubba.

[Gene Kelly]

Mike Rago status aside, I've always found it difficult (and strange) that no pictures of Zapruder standing/filming on that famous pedestal exist.  I've tried to find evidence of him in the many stills taken and published (similar to the umbrella man and his companion) but have never seen any photographs.

For a guy who took one of the most infamous and controversial movies ever made, he disappears from the entire scene very quickly. And unlike others who told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath, he escapes with a movie camera no less.  It is an interesting question to pose.

[Robert Harper]

 

[Robert Harper]

It was reading Bruce Adamson's work that drew me to examining more about Zapruder. This post referenced above lists my own response, plus that of a researcher from the year 2000.

Zapruder's connection with the Dulles/Bush midwest version of the CFR was most illuminating.

[Ray Mitcham]

3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Mike Rago status aside, I've always found it difficult (and strange) that no pictures of Zapruder standing/filming on that famous pedestal exist.  I've tried to find evidence of him in the many stills taken and published (similar to the umbrella man and his companion) but have never seen any photographs.

For a guy who took one of the most infamous and controversial movies ever made, he disappears from the entire scene very quickly. And unlike others who told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath, he escapes with a movie camera no less.  It is an interesting question to pose.

Hi Gene, Zapruder can be seen standing on the pedestal in the Orville Nix film @ 25 second mark.

 

 

[Paz Marverde]

 

[Paz Marverde]

 

[David Andrews]

That's why I posted the painful Wiegman film breakdowns.  Zapruder and Sitzman appear not to be there, except in one frame where you can see their feet and legs all stretched out by blurred motion and video skew.  It's worth one vertiginous sit-through, only 20 minutes out of your life. 

Wiegman's a metaphor for the whole Dealey experience.  Talk about witness panic?  He should have just taken a deep breath, aimed, and walked, not run.  Some of the most important film, in infuriatingly obscured condition.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Gene Kelly writes:

Quote

I've always found it difficult (and strange) that no pictures of Zapruder standing/filming on that famous pedestal exist. ... unlike others who told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath, he escapes with a movie camera no less.

There are in fact several photographs and films which show Abraham Zapruder and Marilyn Sitzman standing on the pedestal. A quick flip through Richard Trask's Pictures of the Pain, an essential resource for anyone interested in the photographic aspects of the assassination, reveals the following:

- Betzner no.3 (p.161)
- Willis no.5 (p.171)
- Nix film (p.185)
- Moorman no.5 (pp.235, 247, 257)
- Bronson no.3 (pp.285, 304, and rear cover)

There may well be others. In addition, the Bell film (p.268) and Altgens no.8 (p.317) show Zapruder and Sitzman immediately after they climbed down from the pedestal. Several other films and photographs taken just after the shooting also show a couple of figures (perhaps Zapruder and Sitzman, perhaps the Hesters) in front of the pergola. Difficult though it might be to believe, Abraham Zapruder really did film the assassination from a pedestal in Dealey Plaza.

How many photographers "told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath"? Well, there was Mary Moorman, who was accosted shortly after the shooting by a Dallas Times Herald reporter who wanted her photograph for his paper. There's also the dubious claim by Beverley Oliver that her home movie film, though not the camera itself, was seized two days after the assassination. But the vast majority of the photographers didn't have their cameras seized:

- Oscar Bothun didn't: "Shortly after the shooting Mr Bothun apparently went back to work. He seems not to have been stopped or questioned as a witness at the scene" (Trask, p.157).
- Hugh Betzner didn't; he went out of his way to make himself and his photographs known to the police.
- Phil Willis didn't: "Remaining around the area for about an hour after witnessing the shooting, none of the family was questioned by law enforcement personnel" (Trask, p.179). Willis made his own way to the Kodak plant to get his film processed, and didn't have his camera seized there either.
- Orville Nix didn't; like Zapruder, he walked out of Dealey Plaza with his home movie camera. He returned later to take some more footage, and again left the scene without having his camera seized.
- Marie Muchmore didn't; she retained her camera and film until she sold the film to UPI three days after the assassination.
- Wilma Bond didn't; she wasn't even contacted by the authorities until February 1964.
- Jim and Tina Towner didn't; they stayed in Dealey Plaza for a while, then went home with their cameras.
- Robert Croft didn't; he left Dealey Plaza and went home to Denver with his camera.
- Mark Bell didn't; he walked across Dealey Plaza with his home movie camera and went back to work. There is no evidence that the authorities even knew of the existence of Bell's film until several years after the assassination.
- Robert Hughes didn't; he too left Dealey Plaza without having his home movie camera seized. The first thing the authorities knew about Hughes's film was when he voluntarily handed his film to the FBI two days after the assassination.
- Charles Bronson didn't; he left Dealey Plaza with his still and home movie cameras, and returned the next day to take more footage and still photographs, and again left without having his cameras seized.
- James Altgens didn't; he waited for a short while in Dealey Plaza and then walked a few blocks to the local newspaper office to get his film developed.

And so on. Those are just the better-known photographers in Dealey Plaza. In short, there's nothing noteworthy about the authorities' attitude to those who had taken films or photographs of the assassination, and there's nothing noteworthy about the fact that Zapruder left the scene of the crime without having had his camera seized.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Jeremy Bojczuk
corrected a typo

[David Josephs]

On 3/23/2018 at 6:01 AM, Gene Kelly said:

Mike Rago status aside, I've always found it difficult (and strange) that no pictures of Zapruder standing/filming on that famous pedestal exist.  I've tried to find evidence of him in the many stills taken and published (similar to the umbrella man and his companion) but have never seen any photographs.

For a guy who took one of the most infamous and controversial movies ever made, he disappears from the entire scene very quickly. And unlike others who told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath, he escapes with a movie camera no less.  It is an interesting question to pose.

"no pictures of Zapruder standing/filming on that famous pedestal exist."

Here are the photographers and what they took...

Zap would be in Bronson, Bond, Willis, Moorman, Betzner and NIX... and is.

 

 

Yes they do Gene...  This is from the WILLIS still...  With frame grabs below...

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs

[Gene Kelly]

Thanks everyone ... I didn't doubt he was there.  But I've never seen a clear picture before.  All are pretty blurred, and Marilyn Sitzman is easier to identify than Abraham. . 

Jeremy: thanks for laying out that comprehensive list of photographers.   It dispels a myth that I bought into, about cameras being confiscated. 

David: excellent compilation of photographers and their location.   That's quite a few people who captured pictures.  The Wiegman film is difficult to watch.

[Ron Ecker]

20 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

How many photographers "told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath"? Well, there was Mary Moorman, who was accosted shortly after the shooting by a Dallas Times Herald reporter who wanted her photograph for his paper. There's also the dubious claim by Beverley Oliver that her home movie film, though not the camera itself, was seized two days after the assassination. But the vast majority of the photographers didn't have their cameras seized:

- Oscar Bothun didn't: "Shortly after the shooting Mr Bothun apparently went back to work. He seems not to have been stopped or questioned as a witness at the scene" (Trask, p.157).
- Hugh Betzner didn't; he went out of his way to make himself and his photographs known to the police.
- Phil Willis didn't: "Remaining around the area for about an hour after witnessing the shooting, none of the family was questioned by law enforcement personnel" (Trask, p.179). Willis made his own way to the Kodak plant to get his film processed, and didn't have his camera seized there either.
- Orville Nix didn't; like Zapruder, he walked out of Dealey Plaza with his home movie camera. He returned later to take some more footage, and again left the scene without having his camera seized.
- Marie Muchmore didn't; she retained her camera and film until she sold the film to UPI three days after the assassination.
- Wilma Bond didn't; she wasn't even contacted by the authorities until February 1964.
- Jim and Tina Towner didn't; they stayed in Dealey Plaza for a while, then went home with their cameras.
- Robert Croft didn't; he left Dealey Plaza and went home to Denver with his camera.
- Mark Bell didn't; he walked across Dealey Plaza with his home movie camera and went back to work. There is no evidence that the authorities even knew of the existence of Bell's film until several years after the assassination.
- Robert Hughes didn't; he too left Dealey Plaza without having his home movie camera seized. The first thing the authorities knew about Hughes's film was when he voluntarily handed his film to the FBI two days after the assassination.
- Charles Bronson didn't; he left Dealey Plaza with his still and home movie cameras, and returned the next day to take more footage and still photographs, and again left without having his cameras seized.
- James Altgens didn't; he waited for a short while in Dealey Plaza and then walked a few blocks to the local newspaper office to get his film developed.

And so on. Those are just the better-known photographers in Dealey Plaza. In short, there's nothing noteworthy about the authorities' attitude to those who had taken films or photographs of the assassination, and there's nothing noteworthy about the fact that Zapruder left the scene of the crime without having had his camera seized.

Excellent info. Thanks.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Ron Ecker

[David Andrews]

 The Wiegman film is difficult to watch.

Well, it wasn't a champagne picnic for me, either.  One of the interesting phenomena, though, is how, after the limo and motorcycle groups have left the plaza, Cheryl McKinnon and the Hester couple duck and cover a second time when Wiegman and the other newsmen charge them with their cameras.  How were Zapruder and Sitzman reacting during this assault?

In the third video on Wiegman that I posted, there's some "evidence" of movement behind the pergola, "photographed" through the cutout windows.  I haven't had time to review it again and judge the accuracy.

Edited March 24, 2018 by David Andrews

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Being nothing even similar to an expert on the field; 

As I have understood it,- when a video is uploaded to Youtube,- it is automatically "processed". In one way or the other (or multiple). You do not see the raw footage as it was, when it was uploaded ? 

When again this footage that is uploaded, - is a rip from a DVD, (also processed) which Robert Groden made,- it is processed even before uploaded. This is ripped from the Groden DVD yes ? I have it in my closet somewhere here. (Oh there were two,- both from 2003, I believe). ("JFK The Case for Conspiracy", and "JFK assassination films - The case for conspiracy") Atleast I'm now looking at two DVD's with different covers with these names. 

If so,---- that version of the film is mildly said "difficult to watch" yes ! Especially when it is so blurry , and of poor quality, in the first place. (Not that I have seen the original). And again, - if so --- I have trouble to understand how one can make conclusions like that Zapruder is not at the pedestal. 

---------------------------------------------

With that said, - - - 

20 hours ago, David Andrews said:

 In the third video on Wiegman that I posted, there's some "evidence" of movement behind the pergola, "photographed" through the cutout windows.  I haven't had time to review it again and judge the accuracy.

-- it is (trying to find the right word...) fascinating perhaps, - that John Dolva in 2006, - posted an anomaly in (I believe) the Nix - film, - which is about exactly at that spot in between/behind, the pergola;

 

Edit: Not the exact same spot,- but one square up diagonally - rightwards. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen

[David Andrews]

Yet Lee Bowers had a virtually unobstructed view of the pergola rear, Trygve  (as a photo in your own collection demonstrates), and never mentioned any activity there, instead focusing on action behind the stockade fence, at a little further distance from his tower.

And thanks for that great collection, which took up a couple hours of my Sunday.

Edited March 25, 2018 by David Andrews