Steve Thomas Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I have been thinking about the physical process you go through to load bullets into a clip, and the fact that the live round in the rifle did not have any fingerprints on it. Don't you have to press down on the bullet with your thumb to get it into the clip? Even if the shooter wore gloves to load the clip, wouldn't the unfired bullet have at least Fritz's and Day's fingerprints on it? Both of them handled it. And why would Fritz have stuck this bullet in his pocket and not place it in an evidence bag and give it to Studebaker or Sims who were collecting evidence at the TSBD? The fired shells were placed in an envelope that was marked with the date and time. Why wasn't this done with the unfired round? Day's and Fritz's testimony are at odds as to when that bullet was dusted for prints. Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it? Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle. Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints? Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints. Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then? Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle. Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to? Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI. Mr. McCLOY. Before Captain Fritz ejected the live cartridge, did you dust the rifle for fingerprints? Mr. DAY. Not before. Mr. McCLOY. When was the rifle as such dusted with fingerprint powder? Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle. Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I ejected a shell. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick McTague Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Steve, In addition to the live round (#4 of 4 total rounds) with no fingerprints are these two factors: 1. Different types of bullets. Shots #1 and #2 were full metal jacket rounds that penetrate and keep on going. 1 miss and 1 the magic bullet that caused 7 wounds in two men and wound up in near pristine condition on a stretcher in Parkland (CE366). Shot #3 was a frangible round that hit JFK in the head and exploded into many tiny fragments. Then #4, another FMJ round left in the rifle. 2. An incompletely loaded magazine. The MC clip holds 6 rounds yet only 4 were loaded. These two factors make it improbable, in my opinion, that the only shots fired at JFK happened as the WC report said. Who loads different types of rounds, in reverse order of intended targets? Who partially loads a clip when they are intending to assassinate the president? Thanks Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Rick McTague said: Steve, These two factors make it improbable, in my opinion, that the only shots fired at JFK happened as the WC report said. Who loads different types of rounds, in reverse order of intended targets? Who partially loads a clip when they are intending to assassinate the president? Thanks Rick Rick, I have long speculated that somebody screwed up and planted the wrong caliber bullets in the sniper's nest. The 6.5 caliber spent shells were found, photographed, dusted for prints, and placed in an envelope at 1:00 PM. They had already been entered into the chain of evidence. The rifle was discovered at 1:22 PM Read this WC reply by Will Fritz carefully when he was asked about the mention of a 7.65 caliber Mauser: "Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser? Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not. Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing? Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges." It's not the rifle he is concerned about. It's the caliber of the bullets. I can't think of any other reason why; when that live round was ejected and fell to the floor, that Fritz picked it up and stuck it in his pocket, rather than calling Studebaker and Sims to come over and put it in an evidence bag. My belief is, that he looked at it and realized that the caliber of the live shell did not match the caliber of the spent cartridges. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 So the cartridges were found about 20 minutes before the rifle. Therefore, they had to find a rifle to match the cartridges or else you have two gunmen and a conspiracy right? Steve, when did the first policemen enter the sixth floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: So the cartridges were found about 20 minutes before the rifle. Therefore, they had to find a rifle to match the cartridges or else you have two gunmen and a conspiracy right? Steve, when did the first policemen enter the sixth floor? Jim, I have to admit that I have not worked out the exact timing, but from what I've read, aside from Baker and Truly, the first people to go into the Depository were Sheriff's Deputies. Surprising as it is being a City jurisdiction, aside from a couple of officers (like the two Smiths and Welcome Barnett) working traffic control, the Dallas City Police didn't seem to have much of a presence in the Elm and Houston area proper. There is a curious little passage in Deputy Sheriff, Luke Mooney's WC testimony: (He's the one who found the shells) WC testimony of Luke Mooney http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mooney1.htm "Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy. Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs? Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department,..." (After going into the TSBD)... "So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. " "I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Victory went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books." (Is it Vickery, or Victory?) I myself, have never seen any statements by Deputy Sheriff's Webster, or Vickery or Victory. Their statements might exist, it's just that I've never seen them, so I don't know what they might have seen or heard. It's interesting. Baker and Truly were supposed to have been about the earliest people around those top floors, but the two groups of people don't seem to have run into each other. Who were these plainclothed men coming down the stairs as Mooney was going up? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Boy what an interesting question that is. So what time could this be, like around 12: 45 when Mooney gets to the sixth floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Boy what an interesting question that is. So what time could this be, like around 12: 45 when Mooney gets to the sixth floor? Jim, It's impossible to know really. He said that within seconds after the shots rang out, he ran across Houston, up the embankment, jumped the fence and ran into the railroad yards. (Mooney is another one of those witnesses who said the second and third shots were closer together than the first and second shots). He left the rail yards and went into the TSBD through the back door. He said there were already other officers in the rail yards checking the cars, so he didn't stay there very long. He said he was only there for a few seconds until he received orders from Decker, relayed by another officer, to cover the TSBD. I have a question for the general forum. Fritz said that he turned the unfired bullet over to the crime lab "later", before it went to the FBI. Has anyone seen a crime lab receipt for this unfired bullet being received from Captain Fritz? I can slog my way through the DPD Archives, but that's going to take a while. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: I have a question for the general forum. Fritz said that he turned the unfired bullet over to the crime lab "later", before it went to the FBI. Has anyone seen a crime lab receipt for this unfired bullet being received from Captain Fritz? I can slog my way through the DPD Archives, but that's going to take a while. Steve Thomas Okay. I found part of the answer. This looks like the receipt of the Crime Search Section turning over the live round to the FBI. DPD Archives Box 9, Folder# 4, Item# 32 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box9.htm CSS Section This is a handwritten note “1 live WCC 6.5 shell in barrel ready to fire of rifle# C2766 when rifle ready to fire on 6th floor” (I think WCC should be MCC) Date submitted 11/22/63 “about 2:15PM” written above that is 1:45. Submitted by J.C. Day and Captain Fritz. It doesn't say who in the lab this was originally turned over to Friday afternoon. It looks like this was turned over to Vincent Drain on 11/22/63 at 11:45 PM Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Steve, I think the 'WCC' refers to the manufacturer of the shell - Western Cartridge Company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Boy what an interesting question that is. So what time could this be, like around 12: 45 when Mooney gets to the sixth floor? Yep - been knocking around for years... What strikes me is that Mooney was looking for a gunman/gunmen in the building, these guys come running down the stairs yet he doesn't stop to ask them who they are, where they've been, what they've seen/found etc., etc...????... Great police work!!! :-( Edited March 23, 2018 by Ian Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 34 minutes ago, Ian Lloyd said: Yep - been knocking around for years... What strikes me is that Mooney was looking for a gunman/gunmen in the building, these guys come running down the stairs yet he doesn't stop to ask them who they are, where they've been, what they've seen/found etc., etc...????... Great police work!!! :-( Ian, Thanks. I'll bet you're right about the WCC. As far as Mooney goes, he doesn't seem to know who these guys are either, which would be strange if they were fellow Deputies. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 The Western Cartridge Company did make ammo for the gun. Scroll down to JFK Commerative Cartridge (Strange choice of words). http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ammo/history.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 (edited) On 3/22/2018 at 1:58 AM, Steve Thomas said: I have been thinking about the physical process you go through to load bullets into a clip, and the fact that the live round in the rifle did not have any fingerprints on it. Don't you have to press down on the bullet with your thumb to get it into the clip? Even if the shooter wore gloves to load the clip, wouldn't the unfired bullet have at least Fritz's and Day's fingerprints on it? Both of them handled it. And why would Fritz have stuck this bullet in his pocket and not place it in an evidence bag and give it to Studebaker or Sims who were collecting evidence at the TSBD? The fired shells were placed in an envelope that was marked with the date and time. Why wasn't this done with the unfired round? Day's and Fritz's testimony are at odds as to when that bullet was dusted for prints. Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it? Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle. Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints? Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints. Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then? Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle. Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to? Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI. Mr. McCLOY. Before Captain Fritz ejected the live cartridge, did you dust the rifle for fingerprints? Mr. DAY. Not before. Mr. McCLOY. When was the rifle as such dusted with fingerprint powder? Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle. Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I ejected a shell. Steve Thomas I'm confused. My wife says that's sometimes easily done. But this sounds impossible, the last sentence. How could Fritz have "let" Day dust the live round for prints Before Ejecting It From The Rifle? It can't be done. It IS impossible. McCloy wasn't that stupid, he let it slide. Another Warren Omission smooth over. Edited March 24, 2018 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 Sylvia Megaher addresses this briefly in part of four pages. I need to re read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 Fritz's comment about letting Day dust first was a reference to his letting Day dust the bolt to make sure there were no prints on it (the bolt, not the live round) before he ejected the live round. FWIW, I've read quite a bit on this topic over the last 2 years. And there are a number of presumptions on this matter that are incorrect. One surprising fact is that very few shell casings reveal verifiable fingerprints. A lot of the older books note that shell casings for fired rounds rarely show prints, but recent studies have shown that live rounds found at crime scenes also rarely reveal a print. It's something like one in a thousand. The small size of the surface area is a factor, as is the likelihood of smudging. And that brings me to another surprise. Although TV shows and movies always have the crime scene guys flipping out over a found weapon, and finding prints on the weapon, unless it was wiped down, this is a fantasy. The reality is that less than 10% of recovered weapons reveal an identifiable print, and that crime scene analysts focus instead on things like window panes and door knobs--places where the perp may have left a print without thinking. One of the great myths about this case, btw, is that Oswald (or anyone) wiped down the rifle. The supposedly smudged prints on the left trigger guard were not actually smudged, and could presumably have been matched to Oswald, should they have been his prints. That they were not makes me suspect they were not his prints. But there's another possibility. That Oswald--who was supposedly careful to avoid being seen with the bag on the way home on the 21st, and bringing the rifle into the building--would not have wiped down the rifle he was supposedly hiding and would later claim was not his, beggars belief. It suggests either that he did not fire the rifle, or that he did, and the DPD tried to frame him by putting his prints on the rifle, only to have the FBI shoot them down because they were afraid the prints would not survive a trial. Something like that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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