CNN: One JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory that Can't Be Debunked is that the CIA Did It!

[Jim Hargrove]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/21/us/jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-debunked/index.html

[Jim Hargrove]

The report gets a whole lot of things wrong, but the conclusion is really surprising.

[Paz Marverde]

The CIA did it. Agree

[Jim Hargrove]

I have seldom had good things to say about Dave Perry, who seems to be the "guru" consulted here, and there is a ton of the usual MSM misinformation here, but the conclusion is just such a surprise to me.  Could there be an ulterior motive?

[Paz Marverde]

2 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Could there be an ulterior motive?

Donno. By the way, did you watch this documentary?

 

[Paz Marverde]

It shows why and how the CIA did it

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Maybe even CNN is finding it hard to ignore the growing 'fact pattern' of CIA subterfuge surrounding the assassination. 

I am now at a place where the CIA would have to prove it DIDN’T do the crime.  There's a myriad of reasons but just these basic facts are enough for me to require the agency to explain itself:

1) Video of Oswald showing his pro-Castro bona fides appears on national TV the night of the assassination, before he was even charged with the crime. That video WOULD NOT EXIST nor WOULD’VE MADE IT TO DC BEFORE JFK’S BODY without the CIA and its propaganda assets - the DRE and Ed Butler of INCA. Prima facie evidence for me that the agency wanted to set the narrative and perception immediately.  Top CIA official Richard Helms directed the DRE through Joannides and never told any investigative body about his knowledge of that relationship in 1963.

2) Angelton’s office in getting both MC station and FBI to “stand down” on Oswald after this traitorous defector meets with Russia’s head of wet operations. Two weeks later CIA was following Kostikov closely after he entered the U.S. He was a major figure to them. Think James Douglass nailed this in “Unspeakable” – the ‘maturing’ memo was to hide LHO until the crime was done then alert LBJ and Hoover after the fact and scare the govt away from a real investigation.

3) CIA has lied and covered-up on all the above for decades. Like Bugliosi said endlessly about Oswald, lies are proof of guilty knowledge.

 

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Mike Kilroy said:

There's a myriad of reasons but just these basic facts are enough for me to require the agency to explain itself:

1) Video of Oswald showing his pro-Castro bona fides appears on national TV the night of the assassination, before he was even charged with the crime. That video WOULD NOT EXIST nor WOULD’VE MADE IT TO DC BEFORE JFK’S BODY without the CIA and its propaganda assets - the DRE and Ed Butler of INCA.

 

Mike,

 

I too read the CNN article that Jim Hargrove referenced, and I've been doing some thinking. Immediately after the assassination, the DRE jumped all over the fact that they knew Oswald, and I got to wondering why they would do that. At first glance, you would think that they would want to deny they knew anything about this presidential killer, let alone that they had had dealings with him.

 

But then I got to thinking, by jumping out ahead of the story, they tried to kill two birds with one stone:

1) They revealed that, yeah, we knew the guy, but we knew right off the bat that he was a no good rat bastard, Castro-loving, commie, and we sent him packing; and,

2) They undercut the CIA. I would be interested to know when the rumors of Oswald being a government informant first began to surface; not only post-assassination, but pre-assassination as well. I would like to know what rumors about Oswald were being circulated by the cuban-exile groups. I think I will start a separate thread on that question in the Forum

The CIA and the Cuban exile groups were not strictly working together. There was no love lost. As 1961 and 1962 wore on, the Cuban exile groups began to realize that the CIA was just stringing them along. The official policy of Jack and Bobby Kennedy was that, "Yeah, we support the Cuban exile cause, but we can't lend the legitimacy of the United States to their efforts by allowing them to launch their overthrow efforts from U.S. soil." "We'll support their raids on Cuba, as long as they are launched from somewhere else. So we'll set them up in Guatemala and Nicaragua."

The Cuban exiles, on the other hand, needed that legitimacy. They needed the world to know that their overthrow efforts had the full backing and support of the United States government.

You might want to read this April 12, 2001 article by Jefferson Morley in the Miami New Times Magazine.

"We worked with the CIA," recalls Salvat. "We never subordinated ourselves to them."

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/revelation-1963-6353139

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

29 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mike,

 

I too read the CNN article that Jim Hargrove referenced, and I've been doing some thinking. Immediately after the assassination, the DRE jumped all over the fact that they knew Oswald, and I got to wondering why they would do that. At first glance, you would think that they would want to deny they knew anything about this presidential killer, let alone that they had had dealings with him.

 

But then I got to thinking, by jumping out ahead of the story, they tried to kill two birds with one stone:

1) They revealed that, yeah, we knew the guy, but we knew right off the bat that he was a no good rat bastard, Castro-loving, commie, and we sent him packing; and,

2) They undercut the CIA. I would be interested to know when the rumors of Oswald being a government informant first began to surface; not only post-assassination, but pre-assassination as well. I would like to know what rumors about Oswald were being circulated by the cuban-exile groups. I think I will start a separate thread on that question in the Forum

The CIA and the Cuban exile groups were not strictly working together. There was no love lost. As 1961 and 1962 wore on, the Cuban exile groups began to realize that the CIA was just stringing them along. The official policy of Jack and Bobby Kennedy was that, "Yeah, we support the Cuban exile cause, but we can't lend the legitimacy of the United States to their efforts by allowing them to launch their overthrow efforts from U.S. soil." "We'll support their raids on Cuba, as long as they are launched from somewhere else. So we'll set them up in Guatemala and Nicaragua."

The Cuban exiles, on the other hand, needed that legitimacy. They needed the world to know that their overthrow efforts had the full backing and support of the United States government.

You might want to read this April 12, 2001 article by Jefferson Morley in the Miami New Times Magazine.

"We worked with the CIA," recalls Salvat. "We never subordinated ourselves to them."

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/revelation-1963-6353139

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Thanks, Steve.  Not sure if you've seen this summary of Helms' meeting the DRE leadership in November 1962:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18923#relPageId=1&tab=page  

 Highlights include:

• The meeting was held to get the DRE more firmly under the CIA’s control.  Its leadership had been on TV citing their sources in Cuba who say the Russian missiles were not being removed following the Cuban Missile Crisis.
• Helms tells the DRE leadership he will now manage them through an intermediary in the CIA who he will personally select and who will report directly to him (Joannides would be the one chosen).  
• The DRE receives 90% of its funding from the CIA.  I believe somewhere in the memo DRE leadership admits it would not exist without CIA funding.
• Helms tells them new orders will be coming for "collaboration" but neither the press nor the exile community can know about it.
• Helms tell the DRE that if they ever appear on TV again, they should immediately contact him or the new case officer (Joannides).

Now imagine your Helms and Joannides on the night of the assassination.  You see video from the group YOU secretly fund and manage on national TV with the arrested Oswald.  

If you're a guiltless patriot, don't you immediately alert the FBI and all other authorities?  Let them know that they need to thoroughly investigate the DRE and all connected parties and the CIA will help them?  Don't you also take the DRE leadership to task for not alerting you about Oswald and "being on TV" in NO?

No.  Instead, if you're Helms and Joannides, you don't tell a soul about the relationship and take the secret to your grave.

That, IMO, is incriminating on its face.  To paraphrase the old Casablanca line, in all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, somehow the alleged assassin walked into the CIA's.  And if it was pure coincidence, they could've said so immediately.  But they kept it quiet and the agency still won't explain it.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Mike Kilroy

[Steve Thomas]

3 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:

Thanks, Steve.  Not sure if you've seen this summary of Helms' meeting the DRE leadership in November 1962:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18923#relPageId=1&tab=page  

 Highlights include:

• The meeting was held to get the DRE more firmly under the CIA’s control.  Its leadership had been on TV citing their sources in Cuba who say the Russian missiles were not being removed following the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Yeah, the Cuban exiles were pushing the U.S. "DO something!"

The U.S. would have preferred to keep it quiet.

Larry Hancock would be a good person to address the question of palace intrigue among the Cuban groups - who's in and who's out. Who's got the backing of the U.S. government, and who doesn't. Who's going to be in charge once it's all over. Maybe if he sees this,  he'll chime in.

I personally think that Veciana identifying Oswald as having met with his (Veciana's) case officer, Bishop or Phillips (or whatever he was calling himself that day) was no mistake. He not only undercut Oswald, but he undercut the CIA as well.

 

Steve Thomas

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Quote

I personally think that Veciana identifying Oswald as having met with his (Veciana's) case officer, Bishop or Phillips (or whatever he was calling himself that day) was no mistake. He not only undercut Oswald, but he undercut the CIA as well.

Can you clarify?  When you say it was "no mistake" - meaning he lied deliberately or he was correct?  Not sure how that 'undercuts' Oswald.  Definitely the CIA.

I'm just aghast at Helms, personally.  If you read that meeting summary, he was up to his eyeballs in managing these guys.  They somehow run across the alleged assassin a year later and Helms doesn't say a word about it.  That's just highly suspicious to me and gets to the crux of CIA subterfuge around the assassination.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Mike Kilroy said:

Can you clarify?  When you say it was "no mistake" - meaning he lied deliberately or he was correct?  Not sure how that 'undercuts' Oswald.  Definitely the CIA.

I'm just aghast at Helms, personally.  If you read that meeting summary, he was up to his eyeballs in managing these guys.  They somehow run across the alleged assassin a year later and Helms doesn't say a word about it.  That's just highly suspicious to me and gets to the crux of CIA subterfuge around the assassination.

Mike,

 

A couple of examples:

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/veciana-oswald.htm

“On March 2, 1976, Gaeton Fonzi interviewed Antonio Veciana in Miami. Gaeton Fonzi did not mention the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, although it was widely known he worked for the SSCIA subcommittee on the Kennedy assassination that was headed by Senator Richard Schweiker. Antonio Veciana told Gaeton Fonzi he was introduced to OSWALD by BISHOP, in Dallas in late August 1963 or early September 1963.

 

VERSION ONE

On March 2, 1976, Antonio Veciana told Gaeton Fonzi that "He says he remembers once having met LEE HARVEY OSWALD. He says he doesn't remember the way it says it happened in the magazine. He says he did meet LEE HARVEY OSWALD, but in different circumstances than what the magazine says. (How did you meet him? When?) BISHOP introduced him. (Where?) Dallas. (When?) Around 1962. (How did it come about?) He said when BISHOP came up to him once, he came up with OSWALD, but you know it was such an engagement like, it came up like, 'This is LEE HARVEY OSWALD.'

 

VERSION TWO

In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County. No matter, I traveled to other cities anyway, Dallas was one of them. In August 1963 I had a meeting in downtown Dallas with Mr. MAURICE BISHOP, a United States Intelligence Officer. I remember that LEE HARVEY OSWALD was present at that meeting.

 

Dan Hardaway reviews Veciana's book, “Trained to kill”

http://aarclibrary.org/a-professional-conspirator-questions-about-antonio-veciana-and-his-book-trained-to-kill/

 

“When we get to the Phillips and Oswald in Dallas story, though, things get vague, very vague. For example, he never tells us why Phillips sent for him to come to Dallas in September of 1963. I would find it very hard to believe that he does not remember what that meeting was about. I would think it would be seared into his memory because of who he met and the events occurring just two months after the meeting. So, why didn’t he tell us in the book what the meeting was about.

Veciana reports that Phillips ditched Oswald so he and Veciana could talk in a coffee shop. I am sure Phillips didn’t call Veciana to Dallas because he missed him and wanted to know how his kids were doing. What did they discuss in that coffee shop? Why does Veciana not tell us what the assignment or operation was that Phillips had to see him about? “

 

Veciana's 1976 revelation to Fonzi didn't just slip out. It wasn't just a slip of the tongue. This alleged meeting occurred just prior to Oswald allegedly going to Mexico; supposedly trying to get to Cuba and/or Russia as a communist sympathizer. Veciana undercut both Oswald, and Phillips.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Interesting.  Thanks, Steve.

[Steve Thomas]

13 hours ago, Mike Kilroy said:

Interesting.  Thanks, Steve.

Mike,

 

Something hit me this morning:

In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County.

Dan Hardaway reviews Veciana's book, “Trained to kill”

http://aarclibrary.org/a-professional-conspirator-questions-about-antonio-veciana-and-his-book-trained-to-kill/

“When we get to the Phillips and Oswald in Dallas story, though, things get vague, very vague. For example, he never tells us why Phillips sent for him to come to Dallas in September of 1963.

 

If Veciana was "confined" to Miami Dade County, why would Phillips ask him to violate that confinement? Wouldn't that have put Veciana in some kind of legal jeopardy?

I don't think Phillips "sent for" Veciana to come to Dallas.

Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro was sent to Dallas to establish a chapter of Alpha 66. He established residency on September 6th. Veciana of Alpha 66 meets with Phillips in Dallas allegedly on September 7th. Who really arranged that Veciana/Phillips meeting?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mike,

 

Something hit me this morning:

In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County.

If Veciana was "confined" to Miami Dade County, why would Phillips ask him to violate that confinement? Wouldn't that have put Veciana in some kind of legal jeopardy?

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/veciana-oswald.htm

VERSION TWO

In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County.

 

HSCA Report Volume X page 58

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=62&tab=page

“When two Cuban exile groups made raids against Russian installations in Cuba and a Russian freighter in the Cuban port of Caribarien, the Attorney General dispatched 600 Federal agents to Miami in an effort to prevent further actions against the Cuban regime. A directive was issued that prevented key anti-Castro leaders in Miami from leaving the area without Federal approval.”

 

When Veciana went back to Miami, did he tell anyone there about having met Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas?

 

Steve Thomas