When was Oswald first ID'd as a government informant?

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Do we know, or can you recall if there were FBI agents actually participating in the bust? Or that the local FBI office was tipped off prior to the bust? Marina names Army Intelligence agent (here we go again) Ed J. Coyle in her letter to Tunheim. Wasn’t he with Ellsworth on the morning of the assassination? He is another possible source for a tip off leading to the bust.

Paul,

 

I don't think I've ever read who in the Dallas FBI office was the lead agent on the Miller/Whitter/Masen case. According to the LaFontaine's; Coyle, Ellsworth, and Hosty met in the the morning of the 22nd to talk about the Armory thefts and the possible involvement of members of the Minutemen and Edwin Walker's group. Since that was Hosty's forte, that was why he had invited Hosty to the meeting (at least according to the LaFontaine's).   See Oswald Talked, p. 283:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ymfQdYoqKyEC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq="Frank+Ellsworth"+ATF&source=bl&ots=8sCclWrAHv&sig=FqP3B4cdr-7Yi6Z2GOJhUoWphxM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL7KfBupPaAhWHzFMKHS60CJUQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q="Frank Ellsworth" ATF&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

20 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Also some discussion on changing a bumper sticker from "Kan the Kennedy Klan" to "Kill the Kennedy Klan." It also covers the crew at "Hollandale."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=69111#relPageId=1&tab=page

 

David,

 

I had put up some information I had learned about the crop dusters and also this possible Rambler lead on a web page in case you're interested here:

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Brancato]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

I don't think I've ever read who in the Dallas FBI office was the lead agent on the Miller/Whitter/Masen case. According to the LaFontaine's; Coyle, Ellsworth, and Hosty met in the the morning of the 22nd to talk about the Armory thefts and the possible involvement of members of the Minutemen and Edwin Walker's group. Since that was Hosty's forte, that was why he had invited Hosty to the meeting (at least according to the LaFontaine's).   See Oswald Talked, p. 283:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ymfQdYoqKyEC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq="Frank+Ellsworth"+ATF&source=bl&ots=8sCclWrAHv&sig=FqP3B4cdr-7Yi6Z2GOJhUoWphxM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL7KfBupPaAhWHzFMKHS60CJUQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q="Frank Ellsworth" ATF&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

Steve - thanks for the link which refreshed my memory. Clearly it was Dallas Cops who inserted themselves and botched Ellsworth’s sting operation, thus protecting Masen and his ultra right friends. The thing that makes Marina’s latter day letter questioning whether her husband had provided the tip is that Oswald was seen at the Alpha 66 safehouse. That sighting, assuming it was not mistaken, proves either that Oswald was working with Alpha 66, or that he was monitoring them. I doubt it was the former. One could speculate that Hosty, who was in his official FBI capacity watching the Dallas Right, hired Oswald as an informant, and that Hosty might have protected Masen with a well placed ‘leak’.

[David Boylan]

On 3/29/2018 at 3:11 PM, Gayle Nix Jackson said:

You are so awesome David!  Thanks for the plug and thanks for reading my book.  You know, when I asked him about John Martino, he had no recollection.  I'm hoping that changes as our communications continue!  Happy Easter and thanks again!

Gayle

Happy Easter to you too Gayle!

Here's something you might ask him about also. This is from Paul Hoch's notes to Harold Weisberg about what was changed by Wes Leibler of the WC regarding Odio's interview:

gone 3:1 (11.079, about 2/3 down, is starting point): Original, lines 15-18: "11. LIEBELER: What is his name? ODIO (continuing with answer to previous question - PLH): And Father Machann. he was there. He goes quite a bit. My aunt and uncle and Father Machann discussed this incident. It was still fresh, so we discussed this thing." 'This exchange was simply deleted! According to Odio's later answers, this discussion was in February 1964. The deleted passage gives the impression that it was before the assassination. That may be why it was removed; I see no other obvious reason. Most peculiar.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Odio Sylvia/Item 15.pdf

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by David Boylan

[David Boylan]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

I had put up some information I had learned about the crop dusters and also this possible Rambler lead on a web page in case you're interested here:

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

 

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve. Interesting information you have there! 

[David Boylan]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

I had put up some information I had learned about the crop dusters and also this possible Rambler lead on a web page in case you're interested here:

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

 

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Steve Thomas

Steve. Marcos Diaz Lanz and crop dusting. http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/docid-32308268.pdf

MARCOS ADVISED THAT HE IS NOW A SALESMAN OF CROP DUSTING PLANES AND REPRESENTS IMCO INC OF AFTON, WYOMING, WHICH MANUFACTURES SAME.

[Jim Hargrove]

This thread was interesting from the start because Steve Thomas began with details about Oswald that were not examined in depth by any of the U.S.-sponsored "investigations" of the Kennedy assassination.  

So much evidence in this case was destroyed, ignored, altered, invented, misrepresented, or otherwise manipulated, we're lucky to be able to learn anything at all about our federal government's association with "Lee Harvey Oswald."  

We clearly were not supposed to learn any of this.  

Only by piecing together these often hidden details about "Lee Harvey Oswald," with the kind of effort Steve gave to this thread, can we begin to understand the true identity of this man--or men--so clearly connected to U.S. intelligence agencies.  

What makes this connection difficult to prove is that, lacking honest conclusions of the so-called investigations, the devil has always been in the details, and those details take time to explain and even more time to comprehend. 

But those details, as numerous as the bricks in a huge building, eventually show that the true biography of "Lee Harvey Oswald" is vastly different than what four official U.S. government "investigations" told us.

Has there been a single mainstream news report in the past half century thoroughly examining the evidence of "Oswald's" ties to U.S. Intel?  Can anyone name a single one?

The thread Steve started here clearly shows, I think, that "Lee Harvey Oswald" was an informant for the FBI.  But I also think that Oswald's U.S. Intel connections go MUCH deeper.  Here, once more, is my take....

21 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account, called RX-ZIM, which was really for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and probably monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960.  Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."

21. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jim Hargrove

[Paz Marverde]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.

Very interesting guy, this Nagell, I agree

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 7:00 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

This thread was interesting from the start because Steve Thomas began with details about Oswald that were not examined in depth by any of the U.S.-sponsored "investigations" of the Kennedy assassination.  

So much evidence in this case was destroyed, ignored, altered, invented, misrepresented, or otherwise manipulated, we're lucky to be able to learn anything at all about our federal government's association with "Lee Harvey Oswald."  

We clearly were not supposed to learn any of this.  

Only by piecing together these often hidden details about "Lee Harvey Oswald," with the kind of effort Steve gave to this thread, can we begin to understand the true identity of this man--or men--so clearly connected to U.S. intelligence agencies.  

What makes this connection difficult to prove is that, lacking honest conclusions of the so-called investigations, the devil has always been in the details, and those details take time to explain and even more time to comprehend. 

But those details, as numerous as the bricks in a huge building, eventually show that the true biography of "Lee Harvey Oswald" is vastly different than what four official U.S. government "investigations" told us.

Has there been a single mainstream news report in the past half century thoroughly examining the evidence of "Oswald's" ties to U.S. Intel?  Can anyone name a single one?

The thread Steve started here clearly shows, I think, that "Lee Harvey Oswald" was an informant for the FBI.  But I also think that Oswald's U.S. Intel connections go MUCH deeper.  Here, once more, is my take....

21 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account, called RX-ZIM, which was really for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and probably monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960.  Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."

21. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

 

Nice list Jim.

[Matt Allison]

I wasn't sure which thread to add this to, so I just picked this one. Carlos Bringuier found out that Oswald had left New Orleans from... Warren De Brueys.

 

Bringuier gives the impression that this interaction took place only a short time after his debate with Oswald on the Stuckey show....

Edited April 25, 2020 by Matt Allison

[Steve Thomas]

On 3/28/2018 at 12:11 PM, Steve Thomas said:

 Every time an "Oswald" was around, their plans were foiled.

 

April, 1963 a planned raid in Cuba is waylaid (Alpha 66)

July, 1963 a training camp in Lake Ponchartrain is raided (MDC)

 

I got to thinking that it was around this time that the FBI was tasked with breaking up the Cuban exile camps and foiling their attempts to conduct raids on Cuba from U.S. soil.

Coincidence?

Steve Thomas

Edited April 26, 2020 by Steve Thomas