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Steve Thomas

When was Oswald first ID'd as a government informant?

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21 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Or upon returning (maybe even before)....  he realizes there's an OSWALD in the Miami area as well ???

Besides, who would he tell?  In the world of spies on spies... the less said the better?

???  :huh:

David,

 

On the contrary. I have come to believe that the name Oswald was well known in the Cuban exile community as somebody to stay away from. His name goes back as early as August in New Orleans, when he visited Bringuer and offered to "help"; and probably as early as late March/early April when an "Oswald" tried to board a ship in Miami bound for a commando raid. That person was so obnoxious that Jerry Buchanan had to punch him in the mouth and knock him down. (Does that "Oswald" behavior sound familiar?)

According to Buddy Walthers, Oswald was seen going in and out of that house on Harlendale in the months prior to November 22nd.

I will be on the lookout for references, not in the U.S. spy community, but in the Cuban exile community to an "Oswald".

 

Steve Thomas

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7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The information was that Lee Oswald was actually hired by the FBI; that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 179; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on their payroll the day he was apprehended  in the Texas Theater....

--Gerald Ford, Portrait of the Assassin, p. 14.

It seems to me that $200 a month is too little to pay an "Undercover FBI Agent."   Also, FBI agent numbers had alphabetical elements as well as numerals, didn't they?  

It sounds like somebody's guesswork based on some FBI document that was poorly understood.  What was the document cited by Gerald Ford?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

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Justin McCarthy by way of Clare Booth Luce.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41853&search=doroth_AND+LUCE#relPageId=1&tab=page

See page 13.

This is a fascinating document in a way. "The Cuban Missile Crisis and the missiles left behind was not the end,  it was just the beginning."


"Oswald went to the FBI." He said, "I know that, he was selling them information, and they did not believe him."

 

Steve Thomas

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I thought this was common knowledge.  Excerpted from pp. 13-14 of Portrait of the Assassin by Gerald Ford….

“On Wednesday, January 12, the members of the Commission were hurriedly called into emergency session by the chairman.  Mr. J Lee Rankin, newly appointed General Counsel for the Commission, had received a telephone call from Texas.  The caller was Mr. Waggoner Carr, the Attorney General of Texas.  The information was that the FBI had “an undercover agent” and that the agent was none other than “Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of President Kennedy!

“Prior to that day the newspapers had carried an inconspicuous article or two speculating on whether Oswald could have been an agent of any United States Government agency.  Mrs. Marguerite Oswald had made statements that she thought her son must have been tied in with the CIA or the State Department.  But now the alarm had been sounded by a high official; and the Dallas prosecutor, Mr. Henry Wade, who had reported the rumor, was himself a former FBI man.

“Individual members of the Commission got their first inkling of the seriousness of Carr’s report when they met in emergency session late in the afternoon of the twenty-second of January…..

“The Texas officials slipped into the nation’s capital with complete anonymity.  They met with Lee Rankin and other members of the staff and told what they knew.  The information was that Lee Oswald was actually hired by the FBI; that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 170; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on their payroll the day he was apprehended at the Texas Theatre after having gunned down Officer J.D. Tippit!  The officials returned to Dallas after their visit on Friday, January 24.  Their presence in Washington was unknown to the press or the public.”

In the remaining 500 pages or so of Ford’s otherwise unremarkable book, the story above is never discredited, other than indicating that Hoover personally denied everything.  In 1996, former Deputy Counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations Robert Tanenbaum testified at an ARRB hearing in Los Angeles by saying, "the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney and Leon Jaworsky counsel to the Attorney General, on the transcript spoke to the Chief Justice and said in substance, as I recall, that they had information from unimpeachable sources that Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI."  Read Mr. Tanenbaum’s ARRB testimony HERE.

 

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I thought this was common knowledge.  Excerpted from pp. 13-14 of Portrait of the Assassin by Gerald Ford….

“On Wednesday, January 12, the members of the Commission were hurriedly called into emergency session by the chairman. 

Jim,

 

You could also direct people to the transcript of the January 22nd Executive Session itself here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1327

Warren: "He (Waggoner Carr) said that he understood the information had been had been made available so that the Defense Counsel for Ruby had that information, that he knew the press had the information..."

Warren: "If he was in the employ from 1962, September, 1962 up to the time of the assassination, it had to start over in Russia, didn't it, because didn't he get back in February? When did he get back here from Russia?"

 

(We'll never know exactly what Fain talked to Oswald about for those two hours out in the car.) 

 

You have to know they were in a panic, because the Commission had met in regular session just the day before on the 21st.

Boggs: "I don't even like to see this being taken down."

Dulles: "Yes, I think this record ought to be destroyed. Do you think we need a record of this?"

Warren: "I don't."

 

Steve Thomas

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On 3/26/2018 at 11:06 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Does anyone know when Oswald was first identified, or rumored to be a government informant?

Well, I think I got my answer, and it comes from Lee Oswald himself!

 

Frontline interview with Robert Oswald, November 19, 2013.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/

 

Following his return from Russia in the latter part of June, 1962, Lee Oswald gets a call from SA John Fain asking for a meeting. Oswald agrees. Afterwards, Robert asks him how it went. Lee answers, "Well, everything went all right. They even asked me if I had ever been an agent of the Federal government or the CIA."

"I said, What did you tell them?"

"He says, Well, don't you know? and just laughed."

 

Warren Commission Hearings Volume XVII page 738

CE 824 - Copy of an FBI report by Special Agent Fain, dated August 30, 1962.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134&relPageId=764

 

He (Oswald) agreed to contact the FBI if at any time any individual made any contact of any nature under suspicious circumstances with him.... he promised his cooperation in reporting to FBI any information coming to his attention.”

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve,

Yeah, I believe the record is true that the Russian-speaking Oswald left Moscow in May '62 and arrived in Hoboken, NJ on June 13.  If Robert's version is true, "LHO" was probably referring as much to the CIA as the FBI, but I sincerely doubt it is entirely true.

Thank you for the 1/22/64 transcript link.  I was just looking for it yesterday.  

I must say though that I have a problem with this transcript.  Tanenbaum said he read it back in the HSCA days and he told the ARRB that, to the best of his recollection, it contained references not only to Oswald's employment by the FBI, but by the CIA as well.  He could be wrong, of course, but the transcript could also have been sanitized.

We have proof that the WC was not above altering transcripts, for example....


Cadigan_Altered.jpg

 

The fact that so many of the attendees felt the transcript should be buried suggests that, at the least, it got very special attention.  Call me paranoid....

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20 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

On the contrary. I have come to believe that the name Oswald was well known in the Cuban exile community as somebody to stay away from. His name goes back as early as August in New Orleans, when he visited Bringuer and offered to "help"; and probably as early as late March/early April when an "Oswald" tried to board a ship in Miami bound for a commando raid. That person was so obnoxious that Jerry Buchanan had to punch him in the mouth and knock him down. (Does that "Oswald" behavior sound familiar?)

According to Buddy Walthers, Oswald was seen going in and out of that house on Harlendale in the months prior to November 22nd.

I will be on the lookout for references, not in the U.S. spy community, but in the Cuban exile community to an "Oswald".

 

Steve Thomas

I too believe that Oswald was known to many in the Cuban Refugee Community, thus the thrust to "find" Father Machann and interview him.  By the way, Machann told me it wasn't the Secret Service that interviewed him and asked him to call Silvia, it was his parishioner, James Hosty.  Thanks for this enlightening thread Steve, it's right up my alley!

 

Gayle Nix Jackson

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:41 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Well, I think I got my answer, and it comes from Lee Oswald himself!

 

Frontline interview with Robert Oswald, November 19, 2013.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/

 

Following his return from Russia in the latter part of June, 1962, Lee Oswald gets a call from SA John Fain asking for a meeting. Oswald agrees. Afterwards, Robert asks him how it went. Lee answers, "Well, everything went all right. They even asked me if I had ever been an agent of the Federal government or the CIA."

"I said, What did you tell them?"

"He says, Well, don't you know? and just laughed."

 

Warren Commission Hearings Volume XVII page 738

CE 824 - Copy of an FBI report by Special Agent Fain, dated August 30, 1962.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134&relPageId=764

 

He (Oswald) agreed to contact the FBI if at any time any individual made any contact of any nature under suspicious circumstances with him.... he promised his cooperation in reporting to FBI any information coming to his attention.”

 

Steve Thomas

Pretty sure it was standard for the FBI to have anyone in Oswald's position to keep the FBI informed of attempted contacts....

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:41 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Does anyone know when Oswald was first identified, or rumored to be a government informant?

So I gather you are saying that his trip to Russia, as part of the defector program, qualifies him as a "government informant"?

 

Didn't SNYDER in Russia believe his approach and what he said struck him as rehearsed and guided?

From WEBERMAN

In September 1975 Counter-Intelligence Staff member Paul Hartman drafted a Memorandum for the Chief, Counter-Intelligence Staff (ANGLETON), stating that on November 27, 1963, he was instructed by Raymond Rocca, his immediate superior, to check Agency files in order to determine if OSWALD had been used by, or was connected with, the CIA. Paul Hartman checked with Records Integration Division , Deputy Director/Plans, Domestic Contacts Division , Division D, SE Division, the Cuban Operations Group of the Latin American Division, Medical Services, Counter-Intelligence/Operational Approval, CRS, and Office of Security/Security Research Service: "The results were negative" as well they should have been, since OSWALD worked for ANGLETON, not the CIA. [CIA 1188-1000]

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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On 3/28/2018 at 10:50 AM, Gayle Nix Jackson said:

I too believe that Oswald was known to many in the Cuban Refugee Community, thus the thrust to "find" Father Machann and interview him.  By the way, Machann told me it wasn't the Secret Service that interviewed him and asked him to call Silvia, it was his parishioner, James Hosty.  Thanks for this enlightening thread Steve, it's right up my alley!

 

Gayle Nix Jackson

Gayle,

 

Here's why I have been asking.

Mike Kilroy and I have been having a conversation in another thread on the Forum entitled, "CNN: One JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory that Can't Be Debunked is that the CIA Did It!" that was started by Jim Hargrove, about the speed with which the DRE released biographical background on Oswald on the afternoon of Nov 22nd.

 

It was my contention that, by doing so, the DRE got ahead of the story and killed two birds with one stone. They not only undercut LHO by portraying him as a "rat bastard, Castro-loving commie"; but they also undercut the CIA. I think they were whispering behind the scenes that not only was LHO was a commie, but also that he was an informant for the government. I think the exiles has been compiling a dossier on Oswald from a long time back. Every time an "Oswald" was around, their plans were foiled.

April, 1963 a planned raid in Cuba is waylaid (Alpha 66)

July, 1963 a training camp in Lake Ponchartrain is raided (MDC)

August, 1963 Carlos Bringuer voices suspicion that Oswald is an informant (DRE)

September, 1963 a "Cuban associate" of Sylvia Odio is told to stay away from Oswald (JURE)

November, 1963 the Miller/Whitter/John Thomas Masen gun deal goes bad (Alpha 66)

Didn't Gerry Partick Hemming say that Oswald had contacted him and offered to help and Hemming told him to get lost?

After a while, you have to believe that people are putting two and two together.

I think this partially explains the CIA's post 11/22 panic over the Mexico City affair. The January 22, 1964 WC Executive Session analysis is spot on.

The DRE was initially formed as a propaganda arm. In this case, I think they out-Hunted Hunt and Phillips.

 

PS: Just as an aside, I read yesterday that the CIA AMSPELL cryptonym for the DRE was developed by Bill Harvey in November, 1962. When you put the DRE in front of it, it spells DRE/AMSPELL. Cute huh?

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas

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19 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gayle,

 

Here's why I have been asking.

Mike Kilroy and I have been having a conversation in another thread on the Forum entitled, "CNN: One JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory that Can't Be Debunked is that the CIA Did It!" that was started by Jim Hargrove, about the speed with which the DRE released biographical background on Oswald on the afternoon of Nov 22nd.

 

It was my contention that, by doing so, the DRE got ahead of the story and killed two birds with one stone. They not only undercut LHO by portraying him as a "rat bastard, Castro-loving commie"; but they also undercut the CIA. I think they were whispering behind the scenes that not only was LHO was a commie, but also that he was an informant for the government. I think the exiles has been compiling a dossier on Oswald from a long time back. Every time an "Oswald" was around, their plans were foiled.

April, 1963 a planned raid in Cuba is waylaid (Alpha 66)

July, 1963 a training camp in Lake Ponchtrain is raided (MDC)

August, 1963 Carlos Bringuer voices suspicion that Oswald is an informant (DRE)

September, 1963 a "Cuban associate" of Sylvia Odio is told to stay away from Oswald (JURE)

November, 1963 the Miller/Whitter/Jhn Thomas Masen gun deal goes bad (Alpha 66)

Didn't Gerry Partick Hemming say that Oswald had contacted him and offered to help and Hemming told him to get lost?

After a while, you have to believe that people are putting two and two together.

I think this partially explains the CIA's post 11/22 panic over the Mexico City affair. The January 22, 1964 WC Executive Session analysis is spot on.

The DRE was initially formed as a propaganda arm. In this case, I think they out-Hunted Hunt and Phillips.

 

PS: Just as an aside, I read yesterday that the CIA AMSPELL cryptonym for the DRE was developed by Bill Harvey in November, 1962. When you put the DRE in front of it, it spells DRE/AMSPELL. Cute huh?

 

Steve Thomas

Dear GOD Steve!

I so agree with everything you're saying and it fits in nicely with my "pet theory" that the DRE was the key to the Odio visit...as you remember, when Annie first answered the door, they asked for Sarita.  As I mention in my book, Sarita was a member of the DRE and from all the interviews I did with people who knew her (including Father Machann's sister), she was the political one of the family.  Now, Silvia is affiliated with JURE, not the DRE, and it is my contention (though I cannot prove it) that Silvia was protecting her sister and her sister's politics from these strangers at the door.  Silvia, by all accounts, was very bright and knew Hemming as well. Her uncle, Augustin Guitart, her friend/intimate Father Machann; her cousin Marcella Insua....all these people were aware of her political leanings as well as her sister Sarita's.  I have heard rumor that Silvia also knew Oswald before the visit, but I cannot confirm that.  I interviewed Kiki Masferrer's son and he had nothing positive to say about the Odio family, nor could he confirm or deny the rumor about Oswald.  Father Machann and his sister are just the opposite in regards to the Odio sisters.  I agree with your contention about the DRE getting ahead of the story.  It was the DRE that shared the missile pictures as well.   Dreamspell huh?  WOW!

 

Gayle

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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gayle,

 

Here's why I have been asking.

Mike Kilroy and I have been having a conversation in another thread on the Forum entitled, "CNN: One JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory that Can't Be Debunked is that the CIA Did It!" that was started by Jim Hargrove, about the speed with which the DRE released biographical background on Oswald on the afternoon of Nov 22nd.

 

It was my contention that, by doing so, the DRE got ahead of the story and killed two birds with one stone. They not only undercut LHO by portraying him as a "rat bastard, Castro-loving commie"; but they also undercut the CIA. I think they were whispering behind the scenes that not only was LHO was a commie, but also that he was an informant for the government. I think the exiles has been compiling a dossier on Oswald from a long time back. Every time an "Oswald" was around, their plans were foiled.

April, 1963 a planned raid in Cuba is waylaid (Alpha 66)

July, 1963 a training camp in Lake Ponchtrain is raided (MDC)

August, 1963 Carlos Bringuer voices suspicion that Oswald is an informant (DRE)

September, 1963 a "Cuban associate" of Sylvia Odio is told to stay away from Oswald (JURE)

November, 1963 the Miller/Whitter/Jhn Thomas Masen gun deal goes bad (Alpha 66)

Didn't Gerry Partick Hemming say that Oswald had contacted him and offered to help and Hemming told him to get lost?

After a while, you have to believe that people are putting two and two together.

I think this partially explains the CIA's post 11/22 panic over the Mexico City affair. The January 22, 1964 WC Executive Session analysis is spot on.

The DRE was initially formed as a propaganda arm. In this case, I think they out-Hunted Hunt and Phillips.

 

PS: Just as an aside, I read yesterday that the CIA AMSPELL cryptonym for the DRE was developed by Bill Harvey in November, 1962. When you put the DRE in front of it, it spells DRE/AMSPELL. Cute huh?

 

Steve Thomas

Steve, in light of the way you've laid these occurrences out..  Is it conceivable that Oswald's cover was blown regarding infiltrating say DRE and Alpha 66 and his handler(s) realized this so he was by then useless in that respect, but, he could be useful and expendable as a fall guy or "patsy" in another operation?  I know, just speculation.  But reasonable?

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3 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Steve, in light of the way you've laid these occurrences out..  Is it conceivable that Oswald's cover was blown regarding infiltrating say DRE and Alpha 66 and his handler(s) realized this so he was by then useless in that respect, but, he could be useful and expendable as a fall guy or "patsy" in another operation?  I know, just speculation.  But reasonable?

This is important Ron....

Most everything Oswald "did" could be used for those 2 purposes...

Infiltration of the "commies" requires looking and acting like a commie...  except Oswald, while going against Castro for Odio's benefit was for Castro via FPCC while working for Banister/FBI to ID FPCC supporters.

Whether you believe Tampa and Chicago plots were foiled or not, a perfect DALLAS patsy was moved into place in early October...  working in a building where connections to co-conspirators would not be too hard to make...

Everything Oswald did for the FBI winds up being the incriminating evidenced against him...

No Ron, not too speculative at all...  I see it as an integral part of the Phase 1 Phase 2 plan and contingencies

 

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While reading the "Frontline" transcript of Robert Oswald,as posted by Steve earlier int this discussion, I saw this.  Here was a start. As far as material goods … the car … taking her to a grocery store the first time …

This is located in the area of the conversation when Robert is talking about Lee's arrival back in the US after the defection to Russia.  What is to be made of this comment?  The story is that LHO could not drive and did not have a car.  Sorry for the slight disruption to this discussion, but just wondering if anyone else saw that.

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3 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

While reading the "Frontline" transcript of Robert Oswald,as posted by Steve earlier int this discussion, I saw this.  Here was a start. As far as material goods … the car … taking her to a grocery store the first time …

This is located in the area of the conversation when Robert is talking about Lee's arrival back in the US after the defection to Russia.  What is to be made of this comment?  The story is that LHO could not drive and did not have a car.  Sorry for the slight disruption to this discussion, but just wondering if anyone else saw that.

Richard,

 

Good catch. I overlooked that.

 

Steve Thomas

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