Questions For Andrej Regarding Prayer Man

[Thomas Graves]

 

Andrej,

 

Question #1:  Can you think of any reason PM would stand the way he's standing in your model, with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing?

         In other words, did he stand like that for a reason, or simply because he could stand like that?

 

Question #2:  Isn't his right leg longer than his left one?

 

Question #3:  Aren't his legs too long for his torso?

 

Thanks,

--  TG

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Tommy:

It is not easy to explain all details regarding Prayer Man's stance without properly documenting every aspect. I have started to work on a detailed analysis of Prayer Man's location and height but then changed priorities and began a 3D reconstruction of Altgens6 scene. I did not know how much time would it take. However, the analysis which was posted on April 19, 2016 in "Prayer Man in Darnell Film" basically holds ( https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/ ). 

The new analysis will benefit from a much-improved doorway model which now relies on realistic measurements of the doorway (thanks to Bart) and original 1964 dimensions of the doorway posted by Gary Murr. Thus, the current 3D model allows accurate overlays with historic photographs and the much-improved height and location estimates. It is, therefore, necessary to update the 2016 analysis of Prayer Man's height and location using the new model. This will entail also a new model of Prayer Man which is accomplished in Poser11 program (unlike all other human manikins). Since Prayer Man is modelled differently to have a complete control over his stance, head tilt, and hands posture, it also "feels" to be different compared to other manikins. However, his body proportions in the current model are those suggested by Poser11 and these are simply proportions of an average male. Of course, both legs are of equal lengths.

Before providing updated estimates of Prayer Man's location and height using the current (new) 3D model and a new manikin, it may be useful to explain some doorway features which logically lead to Prayer Man's location and height.

1. The depth of the doorway was only 3'9''. 

2. Prayer Man cannot stand right in the angle created by the western wall and the glass window   because the pole of the vertical door frame would not cross Prayer Man's head the way it does.

3. Prayer Man needs to stand in the front of the top landing else his right elbow would be too far from such landmarks as e.g., the red brick column or Lovelady's head.

4. If the back of Prayer Man's hand(s) reflects sunlight, this can be achieved only if he is at a certain location which is an intersection of at least two planes: the plane crossing Prayer Man's head and body and is aligned with Darnell camera lens (D-plane), the shadow plane (S-plane) securing that only the back of PM's hands and his left thigh but not his chest or head would be covered by the sunlight. Furthermore, the Prayer Man's right elbow needs to be in a certain specific distance from the red brick column and the top of his head needs to align with the plane crossing Frazier's shoulder line. Thus, there are four planes that need to be considered, plotted and visualised.

5. Prayer Man's height can only be 5'9'' which is the height of Lee Harvey Oswald or 5'2'' which would be a body height qualifying Prayer Man to be a woman. The location of PM determines the body height. If he stood with both his feet on the top landing, he would be 5'2'', however, s/he would not meet the constraint of the distance between his/her right elbow and e.g. the brick column to be exactly as it is in Darnell.  

6. Prayer Man cannot stand with both his feet on the 2nd step because his right elbow would be too close to the red column brick and his chest would be covered with sunlight, unlike the Darnell scene.

It is not that easy to visualise all these geometric constraints, and this is why I plan to address the problem once more using updated 3D model and a new manikin (fitted to this new 3D model). 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

16 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

  .....

 

Andrej,

 

Thanks, but I don't understand WHY Prayer Man would stand with almost all of his weight on his right foot like that, as though he's ready to tumble (or be inadvertently bumped into by somebody and tumbled) down the steps.

Not only that, but there's something unnatural about the model of him that I can't quite put my finger on.

Are the lengths of his legs, as measured by his inseams, the same and/or in correct proportion to his torso, as Frazier's DO appear to be?

Etc.

 

Thanks,

--  TG

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

Andrej does  a nice job with his 3D work. But I'm  finding  it  very hard to believe  PM standing there for  the  longest time  with that leg down.

On his website there's  a  top view and it appears there's  room to put PM back toward the corner. He may also  be casually leaning  his shoulder on the wall.

Regardless  that makes sense to  me  more than a person with a leg down on the step.

[Thomas Graves]

20 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Andrej does  a nice job with his 3D work. But I'm  finding  it  very hard to believe  PM standing there for  the  longest time  with that leg down.

On his website there's  a  top view and it appears there's  room to put PM back toward the corner. He may also  be casually leaning  his shoulder on the wall.

Regardless  that makes sense to  me  more than a person with a leg down on the step.

 

Also, if PM were standing like that, would his shoulders have been as parallel with the ground as they appear to be in the film (or films)?

 

--  TG

 

[Michael Walton]

54 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Also, if PM were standing like that, would his shoulders have been as parallel with the ground as they appear to be in the film (or films)?

Tom - respectfully, that's  why I  think he's  leaning  against  the wall.

PS - are you OK with Tom? Or do you prefer Tommy or TG?

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Andrej,

 

Thanks, but I don't understand WHY he would stand with all his weight on his right foot like that, as though he's ready to tumble (or be inadvertently tumbled) down the steps.

Not only that, but there's something unnatural about the model of him that I can't quite put my finger on.

Are the lengths of his legs, as measured by his inseams, the same and/or in correct proportion to his torso, as Frazier's DO appear to be?

Etc.

 

Thanks,

--  TG

 

Tommy:

Lee Harvey Oswald actually used to stand like this, placing the weight of his body on his right foot and pushing his left leg slightly forwards. I have placed examples of this in several threads in the past, however, the threads are somehow gone and forgotten. Let me show some examples of Lee's posture in which weight of his body is on his right foot. 

The manikin representing Buell Wesley Frazier was modified from a manikin downloaded from Sketchup Warehouse. It is a good manikin, however, his genesis is different from the manikin representing Prayer Man. The Prayer Man manikin was produced in Poser11 and it is a more accurate and faithful human model than a model downloaded from the 3D warehouse. It is much more work to model a human in Poser and this is the reason for modeling only Prayer Man in this way.  This explains the differences in appearance of Frazier's and Prayer Man's figures. 

The Prayer Man's stance proposed in my model is actually quite comfortable. Of course, I have tried it myself few times and experienced no discomfort. I can stand like this for whatever time needed. It is a stable posture.  

The posture proposed, with one foot down on the second step, is not a random solution. It is the only solution satisfying all constraints: 1. The Darnell plane (the plane paralleling the axis of Darnell lens and connecting with the vertical pole of the door frame, 2. The shadow plane, 3. The height plane defined as a horizontal plane crossing Frazier's neck/shoulder line, 4. The right elbow plane defined as the plane connecting Darnell camera with the edge of Prayer Man's right elbow. These four planes define bounding a box into which Prayer Man can be fitted. Anywhere else in the doorway and outside the box delineated by the four planes Prayer Man would not match Darnell's still.

As far inseam is concerned, I have not adjusted the manikin to have the inseam in the same height as Prayer Man because I struggled to identify it unequivocally in the blurred Darnell stills.  

Please find here few examples demonstrating Oswald's stance with placing the weight of his body on his right foot.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Michael Walton]

Andrej you seem to be arguing against  opposing ideas. His shoulders are squared in some of those pictures but his shoulder droops in PM.

You  still don't  address how or why someone  would  be  standing  that long in such an awkward  stance.

But of course  stranger  things have  happened.

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

it  very hard to believe  PM standing there for  the  longest time  with that leg down.

It is a comfortable and stable posture, please try it yourself.

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

On his website there's  a  top view and it appears there's  room to put PM back toward the corner

It is not possible to move Prayer Man more to the back only because there is a space there. He would not meet at least two constraints: 1. the dorsum of his right hand would not reflect the sunlight should he stand more to the back, 2. If he stood further back on the top landing, his right elbow would be too far from the red brick wall. 

[Thomas Graves]

46 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It is a comfortable and stable posture, please try it yourself.

 

Andrej,

 

But why would he have stood there like that instead of back a foot or so, up on the level (and less precarious) entryway landing?

To be closer to the action?  (sarcasm)

To improve his view of Elm Street by a couple of feet to the right down there (maybe)?

Could you please create a graphic showing us what, exactly, he could see down there from that vantage point, and how it would have been better than from  his traditionally assumed position, back there in the corner? 

How much lower is his head in your model than it is up on the landing and on the edge of that step?  Pretty much the height of the step, right?  What was that?  Six or eight or ten inches?

Why would he have sacrificed that height advantage as it pertains to POV?  "To get a more sweeping view" of Dealey Plaza and Elm Street? 

Etc.

 

--  TG

 

PS  It just seems to me that you're artificially placing 5' 9.5" Oswald there in that semi-dangerous "perch" because whoever it is back there in the corner (i.e., "PM") is too short by far, compared to Frazier, to have been 5' 9.5" Oswald.

And that you feel compelled to keep Oswald in the Weigman, et al., "scene" somehow, in order to banish the thought that he just might have been inside the building, instead.

In my humble opinion, it's all too contrived in order to "exonerate" Oswald, Andrej.

Not unlike what Fetzer was doing a couple of years ago on this very forum with his "Oswald Was Doorman" theory.

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

33 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It is not possible to move Prayer Man more to the back only because there is a space there.

I think this is the first time I've  EVER read that something is not possible in the JFK case.

To wit...

Hardly Lee

Thrumming copter

Perry lied about trach incision

Frames painted on in the Z film

But it's  impossible  to move a guy a foot or two back so he can lean?

[Thomas Graves]

8 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

  ..... it's  impossible  to move a guy a foot or two back so he can lean?

 

Michael,

Why would he (or she) lean if they were perched on the edge of the landing above that step?

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

--  TG

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Andrej,

 

But why would he have stood there like that instead of back a foot or so, up on the level (and less precarious) entryway landing?

To be closer to the action?  (sarcasm)

To improve his view of Elm Street by a couple of feet to the right down there (maybe)?

Could you please create a graphic showing us what, exactly, he could see down there from that vantage point, and how it would have been better than from  his traditionally assumed position, back there in the corner? 

How much lower is his head in your model than it is up on the landing and on the edge of that step?  Pretty much the height of the step, right?  What was that?  Six or eight or ten inches?

Why would he have sacrificed that height advantage as it pertains to POV?  "To get a more sweeping view" of Dealey Plaza and Elm Street? 

Etc.

 

--  TG

 

PS  It just seems to me that you're artificially placing 5' 9.5" Oswald there in that semi-dangerous "perch" because whoever it is back there in the corner (i.e., "PM") is too short by far, compared to Frazier, to have been 5' 9.5" Oswald.

And that you feel compelled to keep Oswald in the Weigman, et al., "scene" somehow, in order to banish the thought that he just might have been inside the building, instead.

In my humble opinion, it's all too contrived in order to "exonerate" Oswald, Andrej.

Not unlike what Fetzer was doing a couple of years ago on this very forum with his "Oswald Was Doorman" theory.

 

 

How long do you think anyone would stand on a step-and-landing combo like that, Andrej?

 

--  TG

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

36 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Michael,

Why would he (or she) lean if they were perched on the edge of the landing above that step?

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

--  TG

What I mean is, AS wants us to think that this guy just stood there with one leg down comfortably on the step.  This is how he compensates for the figure to be "small."

But it's possible to put both legs onto the top like most normal people stand and move him back away from the camera.  This will also make him look smaller.  AS said it's impossible but in his top view there seems to be room.  And the "lean" I mention is not a huge one - just a casual lean on the wall.  See the animated GIF below:

Also, if you look at this clip of the unedited footage PM was hardly noticeable in it and someone had to edit it to bring him out.  What's that tell you?  It tells me he that he seems to be more back in the shadows. Notice too that the footage below is PM *before* his supposed very comfortable putting his leg down onto the step.

If you look at it, he's in pretty much the same position as when the woman in all white is going up the steps which is 30-60 seconds later.  And we're expected to believe that PM stood there with his leg down on the step comfortably?