Questions For Andrej Regarding Prayer Man

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

What I mean is, AS wants us to think that this guy just stood there with one leg down comfortably on the step.  This is how he compensates for the figure to be "small."

But it's possible to put both legs onto the top like most normal people stand and move him back away from the camera.  This will also make him look smaller.  AS said it's impossible but in his top view there seems to be room.  And the "lean" I mention is not a huge one - just a casual lean on the wall.  See the animated GIF below:

Also, if you look at this clip of the unedited footage PM was hardly noticeable in it and someone had to edit it to bring him out.  What's that tell you?  It tells me he that he seems to be more back in the shadows. Notice too that the footage below is PM *before* his supposed very comfortable putting his leg down onto the step.

If you look at it, he's in pretty much the same position as when the woman in all white is going up the steps which is 30-60 seconds later.  And we're expected to believe that PM stood there with his leg down on the step comfortably? 

 

Michael,

 

Excellent points all, but I would like to point out that Woman-All-In-White (Reed? Hicks?) was "captured" going up the steps in Couch-Darnell (and trying to pull Gloria Calvery with her; note how WAIW's left shoulder dips and her torso twists counter-clockwise in C-D as she pulls Calvery's right arm up) only about 20 to 25 seconds after the assassination.

 

But, granted, even just a few seconds is an awful long time for PM to stand with one foot on the step and the other on the landing, with either:

1) his left foot balanced on the toe of his shoe (see Andrej's graphic in my previous post, above), or

2) flat-footed, and with his left leg splayed way back there and his knee bent in an awkward-looking way.

 

Which graphic "2" -- showing only PM and Frazier -- Andrej posted about six months ago, but which I now cannot seem to locate.

 

Perhaps Andrej would be kind enough to re-post it here?

 

--  TG

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

But it's possible to put both legs onto the top like most normal people stand and move him back away from the camera.  This will also make him look smaller.  AS said it's impossible but in his top view there seems to be room.  

... however, Prayer Man pushed back like you show will not have the back of his right hand reflecting the sunlight, and his right elbow will be farther away from the red brick column. After overlaying then Prayer Man on your location there would be a gross misalignment between Darnell and the 3D model.  

[Michael Walton]

1 minute ago, Andrej Stancak said:

... however, Prayer Man pushed back like you show will not have the back of his right hand reflecting the sunlight, and his right elbow will be farther away from the red brick column. After overlaying then Prayer Man on your location there would be a gross misalignment between Darnell and the 3D model.  

If he's in the shadows already but his shiny object is reflective would it matter how far he's in the shadows? There could still be a sliver of light coming in thus creating the shine on his wrist object.

[Michael Walton]

8 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Woman-All-In-White (Reed? Hicks?) was "captured" going up the steps in Couch-Darnell (and trying to pull Gloria Calvery with her; see how WAIW's left shoulder dips

Yes I remember that discussion a while back.  I remember taking a snap of Dealey from Maps and showing that the elapsed time from the last shot could allow all in white and the check skirt to walk or trot hysterically from their positions up to the steps in time to be captured in the film.

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Yes I remember that discussion a while back.  I remember taking a snap of Dealey from Maps and showing that the elapsed time from the last shot could allow all in white and the check skirt to walk or trot hysterically from their positions up to the steps in time to be captured in the film.

What film though? Prayer Man can be seen already in Wiegman film which was taken just seconds after the last shots. Any witnesses claiming to see an unknown person climbing up the steps during the shooting?

[Andrej Stancak]

Gentlemen:

I was challenged by Thomas to explain the reasons for placing Prayer Man at a specific point in the doorway and assuming a specific posture. I see you are not convinced. Please feel free to continue your debate by explaining how exactly and where Prayer Man stood using your research and data. I will outline my point again using the current, realistic 3D model when the times comes albeit in a different thread. Please read my first post to Thomas's challenge if you wish to understand the complexities of the problem and reasons for placing Prayer Man at a particular location in the doorway. 

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Gentlemen:

I was challenged by Thomas to explain the reasons for placing Prayer Man at a specific point in the doorway and assuming a specific posture. I see you are not convinced. Please feel free to continue your debate by explaining how exactly and where Prayer Man stood using your research and data. I will outline my point again using the current, realistic 3D model when the times comes albeit in a different thread. Please read my first post to Thomas's challenge if you wish to understand the complexities of the problem and reasons for placing Prayer Man at a particular location in the doorway. 

 

Andrej,

 

In a nutshell, it's easier for me to believe that "PM" is a person about 5' 6" tall, either male or female, who's standing on the same flat surface as 6' 1/2" Frazier, and who appears to be dwarfed by Frazier only because he or she IS probably only about 5' 6" and standing somewhat behind, and a few feet farther from the camera than Frazier, ...

... than it is for me to believe that "PM" is a man of average height (or a tall woman) who is awkwardly standing with one foot about 7" inches below the other one.

 

--  TG

 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Andrej,

 

In a nutshell, it's easier for me to believe that "PM" is a person about 5' 6" tall, either male or female, who's standing on the same flat surface as 6' 1/2" Frazier, and who appears to be dwarfed by Frazier only because he or she is standing somewhat behind, and a few feet farther from the camera than Frazier, ...

... than it is for me to believe that "PM" is a man of average height (or a tall woman) who is awkwardly standing with one foot about 7" inches below the other one.

 

--  TG

 

 

Thomas:

the effect of perspective on objects across the depth of the doorway in Darnell scene is about 1 inch. Thus, you cannot gain a reduction of the apparent body height of some 4  inches which you need to align with the height of Mr. Frazier's shoulder line as Prayer Man shows in Darnell  (5''2'').  If you push a person 5'6'' as close as possible to the western wall and glass door, you cannot achieve Prayer Man's head being crossed by the vertical pole of the door frame (as it is seen in Darnel). If you push a person, even your 5'6'' person, as far back as possible, you also move his right elbow farther away from the red brick column. Also, a person standing too much to the back ("few feet in a 3'9'' doorway is more than half of the depth of the doorway)  would be at a location at which the shadow area is wide compared to the front edge of the top landing where the shadow line is closer to the western wall. Thus, having Prayer Man in the back portion of the doorway also means that his hands would be fully covered by shadow. This is not what I see in Darnell. 

It is easy to say what you can believe in and what not. However, we are researchers and we want to know with a reasonable degree of certainty the truth about who Prayer Man was. The body height is a crucial aspect of the story but it can only be solved if also Prayer Man's location is taken on board. The Prayer Man's body height and his location in the doorway are interconnected as time and space in the Universe.

Fortunately, the problem of body height and location problem is solvable if all relevant aspects of Darnell scene are listed and a solution is designed which fits all ad-hoc criteria (constraints) which Darnell stills suggest. I am not interested in showing isolated, preliminary pictures, rather I wish to present a solid case addressing all aspects of Prayer Man's reconstruction.  

If you are convinced about your belief who Prayer Man was (a person 5'6''), please show your analyses, calculations, drawings, and conclusions. I am certainly very interested in studying your solution.

 

 

[Guest]

Bumped for Thomas Graves for us all to see his  analyses, calculations, drawings, and conclusions.

Go on Tommy Boy, make Doyle proud!

 

[Thomas Graves]

9 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Bumped for Thomas Graves for us all to see his  analyses, calculations, drawings, and conclusions.

Go on Tommy Boy, make Doyle proud!

 

Bart,

 

I'm way too busy arguing with him at the moment to do that, if you can imagine that.  And regardless, I wouldn't want to get banned from the Forum for "shilling" for a former member.

But I am trying to understand the phenomenon of "Prayer Man" if that's okay with you, and if my efforts to do so involve communicating with Andrej and posing questions to him that I've thought up all by my widdle self while arguing and talking with ... (gasp) ... Brian Doyle, then so be it. 

In case you're wondering, I do agree with something that Doyle has pointed out to me and which he says he discovered but is getting no credit for having done so -- that PM's position can be determined by computing a triangulation of the line of an aluminum window frame with the plane of sunlight falling on PM's right hand,  and that the results of said computation preclude's 1) PM's being back in the corner,  or 2) his or her leaning against the wall. 

 

Regardless ...

Just by using my own common sense, it's obvious to me that PM's right leg couldn't have been 2 1/2" to 3" longer than the other one, and neither could he or she have had disproportionately long, giraffe-like legs (as Andrej apparently wants us to believe). 

In other words, he or she couldn't have been standing in either of the two ways Andre has PM standing in his two different graphics models (which both have PM standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing).  To wit, neither: 1) by balancing the toe of his or her left shoe on the landing, nor 2) in order to have that foot flat (or at least flatter) on the landing, having to bend his or her left knee in an awkward, leg-splaying manner.

Which of those two (In My Humble Opinion) highly implausible positions do you prefer, Bart?

 

Hey, maybe the final result of my collaborating with both Doyle and Stancak will be that not only I, but the whole "research community," will benefit! 

Maybe even you, Bart.  I mean, you know, ... in the really, really, really, really, really, really long run?

 

 

 

 

--  TG 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

In other words, he or she couldn't have been standing either of the two ways Andre has PM standing in his two different graphics models (which both have PM standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing).  To wit, neither: 1) by balancing the toe of his or her left shoe on the landing, nor 2) in order to have that foot flat (or at least flatter) on the landing, having to bend his or her left knee in an awkward, leg-splaying manner.

Thomas:

Prayer Man, indeed, could stand the way I show with one foot on the second step and the other foot on the top landing. If you would review all Darnell frames carefully as I did you would find out that there is no frame showing Prayer Man's left foot with enough details allowing to decide about the exact position of his left foot. It was therefore up to me to figure out about his left foot. Two years ago, I suggested it could be twisted and the foot would rest on toes. In the more recent analysis, I had the left foot flat on the top landing. It could be both ways. What Darnell stills say is that the left leg was bent and it was not only the right hand which was illuminated with the sunlight but also the knuckles of Prayer Man's left hand and his left thigh. 

Please consider also the H-plane (the horizontal plane crossing Mr. Frazier's shoulder line) and the E-plane, the plane connecting Darnell's camera with Prayer Man's right Elbow. Those four planes define a bounding box in which Prayer Man could be (the antero-posterior dimension of the chest closing the box). 

Please consider this: it is not the same for Prayer Man's appearance to be a man 5'9'' and effectively standing on the second step or to be a person 5'2'' and standing one step higher (7''). In both cases, Prayer Man's head would touch the H-plane, however, the location of arms and the width of the body (including elbow-to-elbow width) would not be the same. The short Prayer Man would have his/her arms about 2 inches higher than Prayer Man 5'9'' standing with one foot on the second step.

Please consider that a plausible model of Prayer Man needs to reproduce the relationships with the rest of doorway occupants. My model does it. If Prayer Man's location would be in error, you would see clear mismatches relative to Prayer Man's neighbours or doorway landmarks. There are none, therefore, I was able to overlay the whole 3D scene onto Darnell still. Since all figures including Prayer Man match the original Darnell still, how can Prayer Man's location be wrong?

The quality of the model does not appear to you to be a strong argument at all. You give greater weight to your subjective and false views about how unpleasant the suggested posture is than to a solid 3D reconstruction in which all occupants match their originals. Again, you cannot achieve a match I show unless Prayer Man's location was correct.

The time which Prayer Man spent in the one-foot-down posture was between 1 and 2 minutes. We do not see him at his location in Hughes (despite all efforts I was not able to detect a clear figure of Prayer Man in Hughes film), however, he is at his post in Wiegman and Darnell. We do not know how long did Prayer Man stay in the doorway. He could stay for several seconds after Darnell stopped filming and theoretically, he could leave the doorway before Office Baker entered the building. We just do not know. My point is that Prayer Man kept his posture for a very short period of time. Again, please try the posture by yourself as I did many times. It is a stable and comfortable stance which would not cause any problems holding for few minutes or longer.

I am copying again one of my earlier comparisons of Poser11 manikin and Prayer Man in Darnell. Can you see any similarities?

 

 

People differ in the height of their inseams. For instance, the musician in the right-hand side of the Rolling Stone picture posted in your last message has an unusually high inseam. I did not adjust the inseam of Prayer Man to look as in Darnell because I struggled to identify it reliably from the blurred images. After all, my blog article to which you refer was about Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton, not about Prayer Man. As I explained several times already, I will re-analyse Prayer Man's location with the new, realistic model of the doorway which I hope will clear your doubts.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

25 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thomas:

Prayer Man, indeed, could stand the way I show with one foot on the second step and the other foot on the top landing. If you would review all Darnell frames carefully as I did you would find out that there is no frame showing Prayer Man's left foot with enough details allowing to decide about the exact position of his left foot. It was therefore up to me to figure out about his left foot. Two years ago, I suggested it could be twisted and the foot would rest on toes. In the more recent analysis, I had the left foot flat on the top landing. It could be both ways. What Darnell stills say is that the left leg was bent and it was not only the right hand which was illuminated with the sunlight but also the knuckles of Prayer Man's left hand and his left thigh. 

Please consider also the H-plane (the horizontal plane crossing Mr. Frazier's shoulder line) and the E-plane, the plane connecting Darnell's camera with Prayer Man's right Elbow. Those four planes define a bounding box in which Prayer Man could be (the antero-posterior dimension of the chest closing the box). 

Please consider this: it is not the same for Prayer Man's appearance to be a man 5'9'' and effectively standing on the second step or to be a person 5'2'' and standing one step higher (7''). In both cases, Prayer Man's head would touch the H-plane, however, the location of arms and the width of the body (including elbow-to-elbow width) would not be the same. The short Prayer Man would have his/her arms about 2 inches higher than Prayer Man 5'9'' standing with one foot on the second step.

Please consider that a plausible model of Prayer Man needs to reproduce the relationships with the rest of doorway occupants. My model does it. If Prayer Man's location would be in error, you would see clear mismatches relative to Prayer Man's neighbours or doorway landmarks. There are none, therefore, I was able to overlay the whole 3D scene onto Darnell still. Since all figures including Prayer Man match the original Darnell still, how can Prayer Man's location be wrong?

The quality of the model does not appear to you to be a strong argument at all. You give greater weight to your subjective and false views about how unpleasant the suggested posture is than to a solid 3D reconstruction in which all occupants match their originals. Again, you cannot achieve a match I show unless Prayer Man's location was correct.

The time which Prayer Man spent in the one-foot-down posture was between 1 and 2 minutes. We do not see him at his location in Hughes (despite all efforts I was not able to detect a clear figure of Prayer Man in Hughes film), however, he is at his post in Wiegman and Darnell. We do not know how long did Prayer Man stay in the doorway. He could stay for several seconds after Darnell stopped filming and theoretically, he could leave the doorway before Office Baker entered the building. We just do not know. My point is that Prayer Man kept his posture for a very short period of time. Again, please try the posture by yourself as I did many times. It is a stable and comfortable stance which would not cause any problems holding for few minutes or longer.

I am copying again one of my earlier comparisons of Poser11 manikin and Prayer Man in Darnell. Can you see any similarities?

 

 

People differ in the height of their inseams. For instance, the musician in the right-hand side of the Rolling Stone picture posted in your last message has an unusually high inseam. I did not adjust the inseam of Prayer Man to look as in Darnell because I struggled to identify it reliably from the blurred images. After all, my blog article to which you refer was about Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton, not about Prayer Man. As I explained several times already, I will re-analyse Prayer Man's location with the new, realistic model of the doorway which I hope will clear your doubts.

 

 

 

Andrej

 

It just seems to me that you're going to great and implausible lengths to make so-called Prayer Man a " 5' 9"  man " on the steps/landing in Wiegman and Couch-Darnell because you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was 5' 9" tall (5' 9.5", actually), and for some reason you don't want Oswald inside the building proper.

Once again, why would Oswald or anyone else have stood like that, Andrej?

 

"Well, because he could and he did, Thomas!"

 

 

Laughing Out Loud

 

--  TG

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Tommy:

you do not need to Laugh Out Loud. The Prayer Man's figure is tightly linked to initial Sean Murphy's reconstruction of Lee Harvey Oswald's movements which were later refined by Bart. In my understanding of their theory, Lee Harvey Oswald was briefly on the 2nd floor to buy his Coke, and was returning via the front stairs when the first shot rang out. He wanted to know what was the excitement all about, and he entered the doorway via semi-opened door. Mrs. Sanders stood to the right (east) of the middle glass door and he saw more space in the western part of the doorway. He squeezed in the narrow passageway between Mrs. Shelley&Mrs. Stanton and Mr. Frazier, and ended up there, where he was captured by Wiegman and Darnell cameras. 

Lee had a habit to place the weight of his body on his right foot which may explain he stepped on the second step and remained standing like that. However, he appears to be frozen and not orienting himself to the events which most people were following, namely the Tripple Underspass through which the motorcade has just disappeared. Only Prayer Man and Mr. Frazier appear frozen. All other occupants adjust their positions and views (Billy Lovelady being the champion) to get the most of the scene. So, there is something peculiar in Prayer Man behaviour which may also explain the frozen, one-foot-down-one-foot-up stance. Does it make sense to you?

-----------------------------------

Now, to explain the problem with a small Prayer Man 5'2'' placed close to where "my" big 5'9'' Prayer Man is. The problem is with the arms of the small Prayer Man which would not reproduce the Darnell's Prayer Man. Please see here the analysis from my next article which has now been pushed aside by Altgens6.

The figure below shows in (A) shows the tall and the short Prayer Man. The plane above their heads is to demonstrate that both men are of equal heights. The green line on the landing shows that both men were aligned relative to the camera. The height of the step is 7 1/4' as it is in the Depository doorway.

You can see that the arms of the short Prayer Man are higher than the arms of the big Prayer Man. This is illustrated better in (B). The difference is 2'', which is enough to see a mismatch when overlaying with Darnell's still.

 

 

 

Another problem consists in the elbow-to-elbow distance. A shorter Prayer Man will also have his elbows closer together which will be reflected in Darnell scene as having the right elbow farther away from the red brick column. In the figure below (A), the pink transparent box delineates the small Prayer Man. This box is then inputted on the large Prayer Man and the difference is shown in (B). The difference is about 1 inch on each side. 

 

 

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

You do not need to Laugh Out Loud. The Prayer Man's figure is tightly linked to initial Sean Murphy's reconstruction of Lee Harvey Oswald's movements which were later refined by Bart.

  .........

 

 

Andrej,

That's all well and good, yet you have yet to prove to my satisfaction that Sarah Stanton was not the "Sarah" towards whom Buell Wesley Frazier turned and spoke with, in Couch-Darnell, while Gloria "Big Girl" Calvery was telling Billy "Receding Hairline" Lovelady on one of the lower steps exactly what she and her colleague-in-white had seen about 25 seconds earlier down on Elm Street.  And just before Officer Baker started running up the steps, past Calvery and her colleague-in-white, and into the building (as stated by Calvery and Joe Molina), and, yes probably even just before Lovelady and Shelly, whom you've come to realize are still "on the steps" in Couch-Darnell, took off for  ... well ... took off for somewhere.

--  TG

 

PS  Please bear in mind that Sander's description of where Stanton was a few minutes before the shooting started does not necessarily mean that Stanton was in the same location in Couch-Darnell.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Thomas:

Mr. Frazier does not speak to Prayer Man in Darnell. Prayer Man does not look at Mr. Frazier. They both just stare without saying a word. Mr. Frazier, according to his interviews did talk to Mrs. Stanton, and indeed, Mrs. Stanton is not at the spot where she was in Altgens6. It is all in the timeline. Mr. Frazier could have talked to Mrs. Stanton who stood to his left just few seconds after Darnell stopped filming. Mrs. Calvery was still down there, and some word exchange with Mr. Lovelady could still continue. The testimonies are too vague  to say when exactly did Mr. Frazier talk to Mrs. Stanton. Please note that Mrs. Stanton was indeed Mr. Frazier's closest neighbour in Darnell.  Mr. Frazier could just turn towards his left to communicate with Mrs. Stanton. This could happen just 1 second after Darnell stopped filming.

Would you please be able to indicate the frames in Darnell which show Mr. Frazier and Prayer Man talking to each other?