Veciana, Oswald in Dallas

[W. Tracy Parnell]

11 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

His story however jumped the shark completely with his fourth video.

It certainly did. :)

[Steve Thomas]

20 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

It certainly did. :)

W. Tracy,

 

Irrespective of whether or not Veciana met with Bishop/Phillips and/or Oswald or not; do you think Veciana was in Dallas that weekend, or at any time that summer?

Do you know of any clues to his movements that would suggest to me yes or no?

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Thomas

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

W. Tracy,

 

Irrespective of whether or not Veciana met with Bishop/Phillips and/or Oswald or not; do you think Veciana was in Dallas that weekend, or at any time that summer?

Do you know of any clues to his movements that would suggest to me yes or no?

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Thomas

It has been a while since I researched my articles Steve, so I am doing this from memory.

My position is that the totality of the evidence supporting a Veciana/Phillips/LHO meeting comes from the work of Fonzi, who in his HSCA work, said the date was late August or September. In his book, he states that Veciana told him during their first interview the date was "near the beginning of September, 1963." But when you go back to his original notes from the interviews with Veciana, you do mot find support for Fonzi's statement regarding September, 1963. In fact, Nowhere in the three March, 1976 interviews of Veciana, which are cited by Fonzi as the source of the information, are “late August” or “September” (in any form) mentioned. In fact, in the original interviews Veciana said the date was "summer of 1963" and "July or August."

Fonzi described in his book how "late August/early September" came about:

Initially, Antonio Veciana told me that it was sometime in late August or early September 1963, when Bishop called and asked him to meet in Dallas. Later, as he gave it more thought, he said it was probably early September, perhaps towards the end of the first week of the month.

What I believe happened is that Fonzi decided at some point that the LHO timeline included a date (the weekend you are referring to) that the meeting could have taken place, providing LHO obtained transportation to Dallas from New Orleans which there is no evidence for. Fonzi may indeed have (at some point) discussed with Veciana his theory about when the alleged meeting occurred and Veciana may have agreed. But if you look at the interview notes (available at my site) it is clear Veciana never said the beginning of September and was initially completely unsure about when the meeting was.

Specifically to your question, Veciana may indeed have been in Dallas during that general era in time. He did move around a great deal. But the record does not support that specific September timeframe IMO. And I know of no other independent evidence that supports his being there at that time.

[Steve Thomas]

12 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Specifically to your question, Veciana may indeed have been in Dallas during that general era in time. He did move around a great deal. But the record does not support that specific September timeframe IMO. And I know of no other independent evidence that supports his being there at that time.

W. Tracy,

 

Thank you. I read somewhere that Veciana said that even though he was not allowed to travel outside of Miami without permission, he sometimes did.

Harold Weisberg showed Mr. and Mrs. Robert Castorr some pictures taken from television footage of a picnic for Cuban exiles at White Rock Lake. The Castorrs said they thought the picnic was in early September. Supposedly the pictures showed someone who resembled Oswald. I was trying to nail down the date.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Boylan]

The FBI examined these photos and did not find LHO in them.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32357037.pdf

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, David Boylan said:

The FBI examined these photos and did not find LHO in them.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32357037.pdf

David,

 

Thank you, but I don't think the photos shown to the "asset" as described in the document you referenced were the same photos Weisberg talked to the Castorrs about.

The photos in the document came from an Alpha 66 meeting. The Weiberg/Castorr photos came from stills from television coverage.

 

"W: You may not, but that's all right. What we have here are pictures collected of people we don't know too much about. These are some stills taken from the television films taken of the in White Rock Park. in the summer July 1963 I believe.

ITS Mrs. C: September, I believe.

Mr. W: Was that it._

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Castorr%20L%20Robert%20Colonel/Item%2012.pdf page 1."

 

Steve Thomas

[David Boylan]

Steve,

These pics were the ones that Zabala gave to the FBI and posted by Bart in this thread. The guy in the front row with the brown suit jacket.

I'd love to see the pics Mrs. Castorr was talking about.

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, David Boylan said:

Steve,

These pics were the ones that Zabala gave to the FBI and posted by Bart in this thread. The guy in the front row with the brown suit jacket.

I'd love to see the pics Mrs. Castorr was talking about.

 

David,

 

Me too.

I've tried to narrow it down. If the picnic was in early September, I figure it probably would have been on the weekend, to give those guys who worked a chance attend. I did learn this:

September 08, 1963 - Page 6

Alice Daily Echo Newspaper Archives

https://newspaperarchive.com/alice-daily-echo-sep-08-1963-p-6/

 

Bv THE ASSOCIATED PRESS “Gusts of powerful winds struck in the Dallas area Saturday as a surprise rainstorm whipped into the roof of one residence and damaged another in Mesquite, a suburb just east of Dallas. State Police said no injuries resulted. The wind blew a wooden block through the windshield of a mobile news unit of Radio KBOX of Dallas while it was near White Rock Lake inside the Dallas city limits. On Dallas' North Central Expressway, the blast blew in the side of a service station. Tarpaulins protecting building construction work in downtown Dallas were whipped to shreds. The storm occurred during unexpected rain activity in Dallas and other parts of North Central and Northeast Texas. The rest of the state was unusually hot and nearly all places were dry.”

September 7, 1963 was a Saturday. The temperature was 102 degrees.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Guest]

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Bart,

What was the event where Newman was speaking and are the handouts from this available?

[Guest]

This was a meeting with Peter Dale Scott, Bill Simpich and Alan Dale in attendance and I think Jim DiEugenio was there as well. There is another video of this low key event.

I have no idea with regards handouts, what I do know that all this is going to come out later this year in John Newman's up and coming Vol. 3. 

 

 

 

[Michael Clark]

It’s tough when you have to realize that you may have become a fanboy of certain people and myths surrounding this investigation. With regard to Geaton Fonzi it is particularly difficult. With regard to John Newman it is also difficult. 

I have reservations about Newman’s speculation that Angleton was dimming the lights around Oswald in 1963. And, I think he puts too much credence in Tom Bailey’s proposition that Nosenko was a false defector. Right now I think that he has cast quite a bit of doubt on Fonzi’s claims regarding Veciana, Bishop and Oswald. 

Are there any researchers who can put Newman’s findings regarding Veciana’s back-walking his first meetings with Bishop-Phillips into some context that preserves Fonzi’s findings?

With regard to Bagely’s Spy Wars, I think the following document is important. I asked John Newman to comment on it  through a FB PM, and he was dismissive of the Edward Osborne doc and seemed to support Bagely.

I tend to differ; and I feel that Angleton was a victim of dirty tricks regarding Oswald and he was trying to figure-out who was messing with him in the fall of 63. I also think that Osborne’s condemnation of Bagely’s motives and tactics are a relevant and damning criticism of the latter.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

This was a meeting with Peter Dale Scott, Bill Simpich and Alan Dale in attendance and I think Jim DiEugenio was there as well. There is another video of this low key event.

I have no idea with regards handouts, what I do know that all this is going to come out later this year in John Newman's up and coming Vol. 3. 

OK, thanks for the information. I look forward to Newman's book.

[Larry Hancock]

Michael,  I can only address the Veciana element of you question.  For that I think it is important to differentiate Vecian's first activities in Cuba vs what shows up in his recent book, which is far more dramatic and something that John has deconstructed  - he did so at length in his Lancer presentation last fall.  However we do know - the documents exist - that Veciana used some channel to contact the US about an attack on Castro and for that matter a group did stage just such an attack.  We also know that Phillips himself wrote about going under cover and using a disguise and an alias to work with underground groups inside Cuba including one which was planning an attack on Cuba.  So - is it possible that there was a limited contact between the two in Cuba and that Veciana was at least known to Phillips. Personally I think that is very possible.

The more important part, and the part I understand John is working on now, relates to what happened with Veciana after he came out and how Alpha 66 was started and influenced. We will have to see on that but certainly it still seems viable that Phillips contacted Veciana after his arrival in the U.S, as Veciana says he did, and that Phillips might have helped kick off a covert and possibly not even fully understood level of support for Alpha 66.  Certainly someone did arrange for a level of media visibility for them that was pretty unique at the time - and that documents suggest the CIA later regretted.

We are learning more about the means by which the CIA, or possibly not the CIA at HQ level, but sympathetic CIA officers, managed to support certain exile group missions...even through simple matters such as telling where caches of arms or equipment had been deposited for sanctioned operations....enabling them be picked up by non-sanctioned operators. I think its a little early to claim that we understand all that was happening around Veciana...no doubt John will tells us more through.

[B. A. Copeland]

20 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

It’s tough when you have to realize that you may have become a fanboy of certain people and myths surrounding this investigation. With regard to Geaton Fonzi it is particularly difficult. With regard to John Newman it is also difficult. 

I have reservations about Newman’s speculation that Angleton was dimming the lights around Oswald in 1963. And, I think he puts too much credence in Tom Bailey’s proposition that Nosenko was a false defector. Right now I think that he has cast quite a bit of doubt on Fonzi’s claims regarding Veciana, Bishop and Oswald. 

Are there any researchers who can put Newman’s findings regarding Veciana’s back-walking his first meetings with Bishop-Phillips into some context that preserves Fonzi’s findings?

With regard to Bagely’s Spy Wars, I think the following document is important. I asked John Newman to comment on it  through a FB PM, and he was dismissive of the Edward Osborne doc and seemed to support Bagely.

I tend to differ; and I feel that Angleton was a victim of dirty tricks regarding Oswald and he was trying to figure-out who was messing with him in the fall of 63. I also think that Osborne’s condemnation of Bagely’s motives and tactics are a relevant and damning criticism of the latter.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

 

Couldn't agree more Mike, concerning the fanboy bit. I really try staying the course on the evidence and frankly, that is the element I love about 2 great researcher's works (Simpich and Newman for example) and how Simpich basically (and respectfully) disagree with Newman that Angleton played a big role in setting up LHO, especially in Mexico City (please correct me if I'm wrong someone (or Dr Newman!).

Simpich says Angleton was duped by Harvey/Morales & Co (this implies (possibly?) a rogue group) in more ways than one. Dr Newman doesn't seem to mention Harvey or Morales much in his older work (Oswald & The CIA) which is very interesting when you consider just who Harvey and Morales was in the conext of the Secret War against Cuba. Its really challenging for me NOT to consider those 2 when you get to Mexico City and I believe we're just probably at the tip of the iceberg....there is probably so much more to know but I think some light is certainly being shed into those events.

 

Mike, from what Newman has presented, it seems compelling that Nosenko was not a bonafide defector. I was just listening to even Malcolm Blunt and Dale's talkes (I never get enough) where Blunt himself has always been skeptical of Nosenko's bonafides as well based on the evidence we do have.