Was there an Oswald double at the TSBD during the assassination?

[Steve Thomas]

11 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

This is the photo I said I would post.

Here’s an example.  This is a photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk.  My particular bias is looking for evidence of an Oswald Project with more than two members.  Would anyone like to take a challenge and identify who this is.  Is it Lee Oswald or Harvey Oswald or someone else?

 

John,

 

The first thing I thought of when I saw this picture was, "The man on the left doesn't smile with his eyes."

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Jim, didn't Wilcott say that it was "approx. RX-ZIM..." or something along those lines? I'm thinking that approximation is relevant as it may not be "exactly" "RX-ZIM" but something close to it if true or accurate according to Wilcott.

Yes, but note how the reference to it is typed up in the HSCA notes, which says, “Cryptonym for Oswald Project approx. RX-ZIM.”  (The hyphen is underscored.)  I’ll bet that was an indication that Wilcott wasn’t sure whether it was typed, for example, as RX-ZIM or RX/ZIM.

 

[Gene Kelly]

David Josephs

Regarding the "modern CIA", I am referring to an Agency previously dominated by OSS veterans, but changing to a more integrated organization that had been previously scattered about in offices throughout DC, to a single Langley Virginia location in 1961.  To me, the early CIA is an outgrowth of the OSS.  In 1948, Dulles was asked to chair an early reform study of the young CIA organization.  The new Director (Walter B. Smith) then brought Dulles in to oversee "plans" and covert operations in 1951 and subsequently made him his deputy director.  The newly inaugurated Dwight Eisenhower made Dulles DCI in 1953 which he held until 1961.

In comparison, the so-called Oswald project coincided at the time of the newly formed CIA in 1947.  This project appears to be associated with Marguerite Oswald's last husband, Edwin Ekdahl, whom she divorced in June of 1948. During the period of 1947-51, there were three purchases of homes and a total of six different addresses at which Marguerite and family residing. There is a questionable logic to the repeated moves of the Oswalds in the Fort Worth area in that timeframe.  I see this project as more connected to Allen Dulles than to those who succeeded him in the modern (post-1961) CIA.  

Gene

  

[David Josephs]

On 4/20/2018 at 8:41 AM, Gene Kelly said:

  I see this project as more connected to Allen Dulles than to those who succeeded him in the modern (post-1961) CIA.  

Gene

  

Fair enough Gene... sorry if I sounded authoritarian or some such thing...

I have my own thought on the OSS/CIA creation which involves acknowledging it was the Military's intelligence arms which really wanted the anonymity...  Creating the OSS/CIA puts all the focus on the watchdog and none on the master...

ONI/MID are the oldest intelligence units in the US...  I simply have a difficult time accepting that career military men would allow that arm of their arsenal to be superseded by another "agency"

Case in point is the JFK case and Oswald...  that ONI and MID, etc were not the focus of the investigation, their intel and documentation is probably the most thoroughly combed thru batch of info we can find...  if we can even find it.

RUFUS TAYLOR - it seems, is arranging to create a sanitized version of Oswald's file as well as replace the existing "Case History File" with a different one....

I believe in the grand scheme - that ONI and I&NS were much more involved than we see in the available evidence...

DJ

 

 

 

There is an ONI notebook at Baylor from John... 
There is a 100 page "Enclosure A" and an 81 page "Enclosure C" I believe I found in Weisberg's Hood archives....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs

[John Butler]

Sorry Steve,

I thought at first you were pulling my leg.  Neither of these characters have what you would call smiling eyes. 

However, the figure on the picture left is a Lee Harvey Oswald character.  I was interested in seeing if other people saw what I see in this photo.  The challenge was to identify this Oswald figure on the picture left as Lee Oswald, Harvey Oswald, or someone else.

At this point no one has taken up the challenge.  That's sad.  I believe folks might be thinking well, he's pulling something fishy.  Well, I am.  I'm trying to see whether people see this picture as fraudulent.  No one has in over 54 years.  Jack White said years ago if Lee Harvey Oswald was not a government agent why then are some many of his photos altered.

So, anyone care to take a guess?

[John Butler]

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Speaking of the "square broad chin," compare that chin to other "LHO" mug shots, and it is hard to believe it is the same guy!  For some reason, Jean Souetre was asked about the image and said he knew nothing. 
  

Huh?

[Paz Marverde]

16 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Jean Souetre was asked about the image and said he knew nothing.

???

[John Butler]

 

Well, let me try this again.  Many photos involving alleged Oswalds have been altered.  If the altered figures were not an Oswald character or a member of the Oswald Project then why alter the photo?  James Pic said he would not recognize this youth as his half brother Lee Harvey Oswald.  It is not Harvey because of the wide nose.  So, who?

Can you see what is wrong with this photo?  What is present that kills the reality of the photo?  What makes this photo a lie?

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by John Butler

[Gene Kelly]

DJ

No problem.  As an outfall of my study of the JFK case, I also developed an interest in CIA and intelligence history. The earliest form of today's CIA - the Office of the Coordinator of Information - was begun by President Roosevelt (after Pearl Harbor) to streamline the collection of the intelligence during WW II. Their original charter was to conduct unconventional warfare, with a large $10 million budget and 600 staff, some of which was moved under the Joint Chiefs of Staff to better support the military. This became the OSS in 1942, whose title reflected the importance of ‘strategy’ in intelligence gathering and clandestine operations. There were inter-government tensions and rivalries (that persisted for many years), and General MacArthur and Admiral Nimitz kept OSS from operating against Japan, while FBI and Navy intelligence protected their domestic counterintelligence work. OSS was disbanded in 1945 and CIA soon followed, independent of (but hidden within, to your point) the Department of State and the armed services.  Allen Dulles originally headed covert operations (i.e. euphemistically referred to as "Plans") and took over the leadership of an Agency with a heavy focus on the conduct of paramilitary operations (i.e. regime change) ... which is (imho) what we saw occur ten years later in Dealey Plaza. 

CIA has always been difficult to separate from the military, and its primary mission seems to be paramilitary operations (not necessarily intelligence gathering).  Their track record is not pretty, supporting fascists (in Greece under George Papadopoulos), militarists (in Chile under Gen. Augusto Pinochet), murderers (in the Congo under Joseph Mobutu); death squads (El Salvador) and religious fanatics (Muslim fundamentalists in Afghanistan). CIA helped destabilize governments in Vietnam, Iran, Indonesia, South Korea, Latin America, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Iraq ... quite a legacy.  In contrast to the British system, the OSS established a tradition of putting analysts and operatives in the same organization.  In Weiner's "Legacy of Ashes", William Colby is quoted as describing the bifurcated culture within the Agency - the scholars of the research and analysis division, and the spies of the clandestine service - as "separate, unequal, and contemptuous of each other."  Weiner - who drew the book's title from an Eisenhower metaphor - argues these cultures never learned to work together. Eisenhower told Allen Dulles upon leaving office in 1961: "Nothing has changed since Pearl Harbor ... I leave a legacy of ashes to my successor."  Some would ague that CIA did  not fulfill its original Cold War charter of understanding the Soviet Union's true intent, with estimates of Soviet strategic capability consistently overstated, resulting in an expensive and dangerous arms race.

Major events and intelligence failures have historically grown a large intelligence infrastructure. The National Security Agency was created in 1952 to overcome a failure to place spies in North Korea during the Korean War. The Bay of Pigs in Cuba led the Pentagon to create a Defense Intelligence Agency in 1962.  U2 flights and reconnaissance led CIA and Air Force to consolidate the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO).  In the aftermath of the 911 attacks, we now have over 16 separate agencies under the aegis of Homeland Security ... only one of which is CIA.  In 2013, Edward Sowden provided a glimpse of the scope of the US national Intelligence Program ($53 billion).  In summary, the CIA as it existed in 1947-1959 (when the Oswald project came to fruition) seems  light years ago.  By 1963, Allen Dulles was already outdated and out of favor.  And to your point, I see CIA in 1963 as very much in competition with FBI, the Pentagon and a myriad of other intelligence groups.  They were not the only game in town. 

Gene     

 

[David Josephs]

Very interesting Gene...  I too have delved into the history of "Intelligence" which in turn leads to things like "National Sovereignty" and even farther back to the concept of personal ownership rights and the Tragedy of the Commons. 

One thing that seems an oversight is mention of the first intelligence agency outside the military to perform intel gathering and network generation outside the US..

From the initial chapter of the Mexico City articles: 

One should note that prior to the 1947 creation of the CIA, the FBI’s Special Intelligence Service (SIS) was specifically responsible for Intelligence gathering in the Western Hemisphere from 1941 thru 1946 along with existing Military Intelligence entities with acronyms, like MID (Military Intelligence Division) & ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence).  The SIS story begins on 26 June 1939, with Roosevelt signed a Presidential Directive stating:

It is my desire that the investigation of all espionage, counter-espionage, and sabotage matters be controlled and handled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the Department of Justice, the Military Intelligence Division [MID] of the War Department, and the Office of Naval Intelligence[ONI] of the Navy Department. The Directors of these three agencies are to function as a committee to coordinate their activities.  (Presidential Directive of 26 June 1939; Section 2; File 64-4104; Administrative Records of the SIS; RG 65; NACP.)

FDR clarified his position on June 24, 1940:

He ordered that "The FBI should be responsible for foreign-intelligence work in the Western Hemisphere, on the request of the State Department," while "The existing Military Intelligence and Naval Intelligence branches should cover the rest of the world, as and when necessity arises." President Roosevelt concluded his directive by observing how "It was understood that the proposed additional intelligence work should not supersede any existing work now being done...."  

https://vault.fbi.gov/special-intelligence-service

(Memorandum of President Roosevelt's telephone directive prepared by Adolf A Berle and approved by the President, 24 June 1940; Section 2; File 64-4104; Administrative Records of the SIS; RG 65; NACP.)   

Berle became a professor of corporate law at Columbia Law School in 1927 and remained on the faculty until
retiring in 1964. He is best known among economists and corporate law specialists for his groundbreaking work in
corporate governance. His book, The Modern Corporation and Private Property, which he co-authored with
economist Gardiner Means, remains the most quoted text in corporate governance studies. Berle and Means showed
that the means of production in the U.S. economy were highly concentrated in the hands of the largest 200
corporations, and that within the large corporations managers controlled firms despite shareholders' formal
ownership.  

(DJ: the book is quite amazing in that in 1930 he shows how "CORPORATIONS" by their very existence allow for the very few to control the many...  he says the 200 companies that owned mostly everything at that time would only shrink until a small handful of the hugest conglomerate corporations are left, owning and dictating globally...)

 

[David Josephs]

To bring it full circle...  

I wanted to understand the FBI's reach in Mexico City...  Turns out that ALL the evidence related to Oswald's trip came thru one person...

an FBI asset at the Gobernacion who had been one for quite some time...  his name appears virtually nowhere...  I've mentioned him a few times but have decided to keep it under wraps until I edit my Mexico work...  He had the FM-11, FM-8, Hotel registry, bus tickets and manifests and luggage lists - all picked up by "Presidential staff" within hours of the assassination.

 

 

As I continued I found the 20+ Mexican informants which SA PECK questioned... so I followed that path to how those Informants would have been created..
it goes back to the SIS and how the Intel networks which would ultimately be turned into FBI local support... IOW Hoover's private intel army..

I don't think people can appreciate the depth of Hoover's reach throughout the entire world...  granted he was no Dulles brother or Harriman... but he was not without his means...

 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

Well, let me try this again.  Many photos involving alleged Oswalds have been altered.  If the altered figures were not an Oswald character or a member of the Oswald Project then why alter the photo?  James Pic said he would not recognize this youth as his half brother Lee Harvey Oswald.  It is not Harvey because of the wide nose.  So, who?

Can you see what is wrong with this photo?  What is present that kills the reality of the photo?  What makes this photo a lie?

John,

I see what you’re getting at.  Not only are there problems with the physical appearance of Oswald in many of these photos, there are also direct indications that the photos themselves were altered, sometimes fairly crudely.  The clipped earlobe in the “Alfred of Cuba” photo at top, for example, is a dead giveaway, though I hadn’t noticed it before.

The nose does look large in the Bronx Zoo photo, but the direct sunlight on it and not on his face immediately around it could, I suppose, cause the image to “bloom.”  His neck is also much thinner than in other pictures.  (John A. points out that this is a constant difference between "Harvey" and "Lee.") There is also no doubt that John Pic testified that the Bronx Zoo Oswald didn’t appear to be his brother.

I assume you’re seeing some other evidence of fakery in the zoo photo.  What is it?
 

[B. A. Copeland]

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yes, but note how the reference to it is typed up in the HSCA notes, which says, “Cryptonym for Oswald Project approx. RX-ZIM.”  (The hyphen is underscored.)  I’ll bet that was an indication that Wilcott wasn’t sure whether it was typed, for example, as RX-ZIM or RX/ZIM.

 

Thanks Jim. I’d say Wilcott’s testimony should absolutely and carefully studied and verified before we make any concrete claims regarding what he testified to the HSCA.

Edited April 20, 2018 by B. A. Copeland

[David Josephs]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:15 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

I assume you’re seeing some other evidence of fakery in the zoo photo.  What is it?

Jim.. please stop encouraging that man...   he is playing the forum for fools...

The image he posted "Alfred of Cuba" you called it, is simply a poor reproduction...   and highly pixelated....   

When and if he ever has a negative or 1st generation image from which to state his conclusions then MAYBE...

 

but please...  between his JEAN/MARY placement and then Prayerman...  

Here, I did this years ago... let's have Mr. B show us how this person is either real or not...  BUSHBOY

You see with a little skill and time, you can make most anything look like something else...  was there a boy actually kneeling there...  ??
Same as the phantom photo editor Mr. B is sure existed ...

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs