Was there an Oswald double at the TSBD during the assassination?

[Thomas Graves]

14 minutes ago, John Butler said:

  .....

 

John and Pamela,

 

It's been proved that Lovelady wasn't wearing Oswald's shirt.

Unfortunately, the enlargements that do this are on the "Oswald In The Doorway" or "The Oswald Innocence Campaign" or some such thing website, and I'm unable to upload them here.  (Technically challenged.)

If you can find them, just look at the short sections of bold black and white stripes, especially on Lovelady's sleeve, iirc.

 

--  TG

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Lawrence Schnapf]

we developed the following Oswald timeline for the mock trial. it shows that there were multiple sightings of LHO on the first floor as late as 12:25. this means he would have had all of six minutes to get to the sixth floor, assemble a snipers nest consisting of 50 lb boxes, assemble and sight his rifle and then shoot the president. comments welcomed to the timeline. 

oswald whereabouts.pdf

[Lawrence Schnapf]

another issue to understand is that many witnesses had three or more different statements. first, they had statements taken by DPD, then FBI and many then testified before the WC. The FBI interview procedure is to have one agent ask questions and the other take notes that are then transcribed. however, there is no recording so the transcription can be shaped to fit a narrative. if the witness then testifies under oath that the 302 statement is not what they said, the government can bring perjury charge agst the witness for its sworn testimony even if its truth!  [note the judge in the Boston Marathon bombing case instructed the jury that the FBI 302 reports could not be treated as verbatim statements.]  

The WC lawyers were specifically told by the Chief Justice not to record pre-testimony interviews. so there was ample opportunity for the lawyers to convince witnesses to change their recollections with no record of such coercion. we will be speaking with some key witnesses this year to more fully understand the pressure they may have been put under by the FBI or WC.

and then there are the veiled threats by Gerry Ford and Alan Dulles when they were interviewing the three black men who had been on the 5th floor and Givens. They were all asked if they had ever been in trouble with the law. Only black witnesses were asked this question. they apparently got the message. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Many witnesses said they saw two men on the sixth floor of the Book Depository just before the assassination.  Among them were Ruby Henderson, Carolyn Walther, Ronald Fisher, Robert Edwin Edwards, Tom Dillard, and many inmates from the county jail, which had a direct line of site into the 6th floor TSBD windows.  One of those county inmates, Johnny Powell, said, “Quite a few of us jail inmates saw two men in the 6th floor window of the Book Depository.”  Most of the witnesses saw a man in a white or light top and a second man dressed differently. 

A man in the 6th floor window appears in the Dillard film just seconds after the shooting.  The face is far too fuzzy to identify, but notice what appears to be a distinctive hairline in the closeup still from the film.

 

Now note the hairline in this image of his brother that Robert Oswald took in 1958.

 

This does not appear to be the hairline of the “Lee Harvey Oswald” killed by Jack Ruby.   John Armstrong believes that the man born as Lee Harvey Oswald and photographed by Robert Oswald in 1958 had been working for weeks to set up as a patsy for the JFK hit the Russian-speaking man who shared his identity for a decade or so.  And this Oswald was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.

But if the other Oswald, the real Oswald, was on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination, how did he escape without being seen by many witnesses in the building?  To read John Armstrong’s theory, click on the link below:

ESCAPE FROM THE SIXTH FLOOR

Spoiler alert: John thinks he rode down on top of the elevator ceiling.  It is just a theory, of course, but there is a bit of evidence for it.

[John Butler]

   Lawrence Schnapf,

Thanks for responding.  Many witnesses made more than one statement to the FBI over a period of roughly 4 months.  Bonnie Ray Williams made 4 statements in which the location of the shooting of the President took place.  First, at the intersection of Main and Houston with 2 shots fired.  Secondly, at the intersection of Houston and Elm with 2 shots fired.  The third location for shooting was in front of the TSBD and the fourth was passed the TSBD.

This is a prime example of altered testimony over time.  Williams had to make statements to the FBI until he got it right.  Marie Muchmore is another good example of what could be testimony that was changed by the FBI.  Her first statements about the film gave the FBI all they needed to get what they wanted. 

The FBI 302 is a tool of corruption.  It has been my opinion the FBI is a political enforcement agency with a sideline in criminal investigation.  The current Trump Saga is bringing that to the front again for consideration. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim Hargrove,

Thanks for responding.  The two men on the sixth floor gives me special problems.  Many witnesses said there were two men there.  I don't disbelieve but, see what this does to my thinking:

Prayer Man is Oswald or an Oswald double.  He is on the Elm Street curb when the Doorway Man in in the Doorway according to Altgens 6.

Doorway is either Oswald or an Oswald double.  He is not Billy Lovelady.  Billy Lovelady is just a face mask applied to some unknown who most counting myself speculate is Oswald.

Now, when you add a 3rd speculative Oswald on the 6th floor in the Sniper's Nest this begins to lead to some confusion. 

Then there is the man who Officer Baker met on the 3rd or 4th floor.  Roy Truly identified the man as a worker.  Why wasn't Truly asked who this was?  My answer it could be the 6th floor man that could be Oswald.

As I said in another comment, Oswald is somewhat like Charles Manson.  He appears different in different photos.  I have been working on this again and I think I can identify at least 4 possibly 5 Oswalds just by looking at the photos.  You can also find photos of Oswald that are not Oswald.  A photo of Oswald and a friend in Minsk is just the top part of Oswald's face pasted onto a photo of some unknown.  The photo editors did not do a good job with that one.  I didn't include the photo you use.  That Oswald is just to bizarre in appearance.  I like what you did with the photos you showed but, it is just to blurry.  My first impression says Oswald like but, could be anybody. 

If you are interested in the work go out on google and search "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?  Is it really all about earlobes?"   

[Jim Hargrove]

On this forum on April 9, 2006, the late Jack White wrote about his experience testifying before the HSCA. He said, in part:

Everything was mapped out in advance by them. I was only allowed to
testify regarding TWO SUBJECTS of the many I showed them...the backyard photos and
the MC rifle. Attached is one of my slides they enlarged into a large easel exhibit and
asked me to explain. I WANTED TO TESTIFY ABOUT MY TWO OSWALD RESEARCH, which
I had showed them. I was told that if I tried to do so, BLAKEY WOULD HAVE ME HELD IN
CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS. However, that was a bluff, because at the end of my testimony
I was ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING ELSE I WANTED TO SAY BEFORE ENDING. I might
have changed history if I had the courage to speak up about the two Oswalds.

Jack's post can be seen in its original context here:

 

A few years before Jack made the post above, he and John Armstrong worked to create a poster called "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald," in which 77 photos from the National Archives currently identified as "Lee Harvey Oswald" were placed side by side.  WC loyalists have no choice but to say these images are all of the same person, but clearly they are not. Judge for yourselves!

 

[John Butler]

Thanks Sandy Larsen for the tip on photos.  If this works right I should be able to provide the frames that Jim DiEugenio requested to see.

I hope this fits the request.

And,

I think the vertical position of the camera is used to photograph the Secret Service men who are standing on the running boards of the vehicle.

Edited April 13, 2018 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim Hargrove,

John Armstrong and Jack White in my opinion have done the best work on Oswald doubles.  But, not so much at the TSBD.  Whenever, I think I have found something original I later discover the foot prints of Jack White.  He usually gets there first. 

However, on Jack White, I do have reservations about his statements concerning Richard Bothun and the Altgens photos.  That said, I am an admirer of his work.

I think I have gone one better than Jack in identifying, just based on photos, several members of the Oswald Project.  I used earlobes, chins, and noses to separate out different Oswalds going back to the time they were youths.  The problem with the various Oswalds is they did not resemble each other closely enough.  Maybe someone would mistake them after just one meeting but not over several.  In the photos you run into composite photos of two or more photos, retouching with paint, face masks, and partial face masks.

Search google for : Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?  Is It Really All About Earlobes?   

I explain this notion somewhat better there.

[David Josephs]

You're kidding with this, right?

The man standing in the corner of the front landing at the time the limo goes by is also out on ELM?

It's as if you've not seen a single post or image of PM at all...

The entity known as "PRAYERMAN" is the person seen in Darnell and Weigman

Here - both BEFORE and AFTER the limo passes... the entity remains...

Are you the same person who claimed that Hill/Moorman were really up the street in different clothes?

Yes - it seems you are the same person claiming that the Zframe below (and beyond) was created using the 2 women from up the street...  I'd suggest members go to this post and the rest of that thread and decide if we're discussion this with someone who erroneously adds an enormous amount of hypothetical fact (ala Spector) to every photographic situation.

If you think Mr. B here is correct with the Hill/Moorman charade I'm sure you'll enjoy discussing how Prayerman is not in the corner of the landing...

 

 

 

John Butler....   the limo turns the corner and passes the TSBD between these two gif images... 

when does he teleport out to Elm and back again?

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by David Josephs

[John Butler]

If you want to get a better understanding of the Jean Hill Mary Moorman saga then go to jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and look up 6 articles on Mary and her Polaroids.

Decide for yourself rather than let some so-called expert tell you what is what.

I just noticed in the comment above a gif that takes place after the assassination by one to two minutes.  The fellow that posted that has a far more active imagination then I do.  If my memory is right that's not what I posted. It looks like an alteration he posted..

I'm breaking a promise to myself here by responding to this particular fellow.  Replying to people like him and his ilk are a waste of time.

 I am back to not responding to people like this person.   

Edited April 13, 2018 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

On 4/13/2018 at 11:36 AM, John Butler said:

Decide for yourself rather than let some so-called expert tell you what is what.

I have decided John....

The manner in which you misrepresent the photographic evidence represents intellectual abuse.

You actually have the gall to post this image and claim these women are Hill and Moorman...

 

Yet another on the ignore list...  how much of this do we stand before moving these threads to the silly bin?

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

John Armstrong and Jack White in my opinion have done the best work on Oswald doubles.  But, not so much at the TSBD.

Evidence for the Terrible Twosome at the TSBD may be stronger than you think.

An awful lot of people saw a fellow in a white or light colored shirt parading around on the sixth floor of the TSBD just before the assassination.  Although most people in the Book Depository saw Oswald in a long-sleeved brown shirt, Mrs. Reid saw Oswald in a short sleeve white shirt? Was that a mistake?  

The real evidence for two Oswalds at the TSBD, though, is how they left.  Many people on this forum have completely discarded Oswald’s bus and taxi ride portrayed in the Warren Report because, among a few other reasons, bus driver McWatters clearly didn’t remember him.  Would you expect him to?  On the other hand, Whaley clearly remembered our boy getting into his cab, just as you would expect he would.  This Oswald was wearing that familiar long-sleeved brown shirt.

On the other hand,  the Roger Craig/Robinson/Cooper/Forest/Pennington witnessing of an Oswald getting into the Nash Rambler is equally strong, but this Oswald was wearing a short-sleeved white shirt.  You can trace the white shirt/brown shirt Oswalds from the TSBD to the Texas Theater; a surprising number of witnesses correctly remembered the clothing distinction.

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Evidence for the Terrible Twosome at the TSBD may be stronger than you think.

An awful lot of people saw a fellow in a white or light colored shirt parading around on the sixth floor of the TSBD just before the assassination.  Although most people in the Book Depository saw Oswald in a long-sleeved brown shirt, Mrs. Reid saw Oswald in a short sleeve white shirt? Was that a mistake?  

The real evidence for two Oswalds at the TSBD, though, is how they left.  Many people on this forum have completely discarded Oswald’s bus and taxi ride portrayed in the Warren Report because, among a few other reasons, bus driver McWatters clearly didn’t remember him.  Would you expect him to?  On the other hand, Whaley clearly remembered our boy getting into his cab, just as you would expect he would.  This Oswald was wearing that familiar long-sleeved brown shirt.

On the other hand,  the Roger Craig/Robinson/Cooper/Forest/Pennington witnessing of an Oswald getting into the Nash Rambler is equally strong, but this Oswald was wearing a short-sleeved white shirt.  You can trace the white shirt/brown shirt Oswalds from the TSBD to the Texas Theater; a surprising number of witnesses correctly remembered the clothing distinction.

Then one was arrested, taken out the front door, photographed and taken to jail.  The other was escorted from the balcony out the back door.  It took years for a witness or two to realize what they had seen and was never really reported.  Then there was somebody trying not to be seen afterwards in a white (?) car down the street in the El Chico parking lot...

Sorry, guess I should start a thread on two Oswald's at the Texas Theater but it seemed kind of related.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[John Butler]

Jim Hargrove,

Thanks for that last response.  Let's see if I can summarize what you are saying.

There is an Oswald character in a short sleeve white shirt seen in the TSBD at:

6th floor Sniper's Nest

2nd Floor with Mrs. Reid

Getting into a Nash Rambler.

Is later on seen at the Texas Theater.

I wonder how Roy Truly would have described Officer Baker's 3rd or 4th floor man.  White shirt?  Why has no one ever focused on this guy at the time when questions were being asked by the FBI and the local authorities?

That takes care of one Oswald character.

The brown shirted Oswald character is said to be Doorway Man and Prayer Man.  But, are they the same.  I don't think so based on the way they wore their brown shirt.  I say they are different Oswald characters.  One wears his shirt partially unbuttoned with the sleeves rolled down.  The other wears his shirt fully buttoned with his sleeves rolled up.  This is at the same time in Altgens 6 and John Martin.  Neither one of these pieces of evidence are reliable due to alterations.  In the case of John Martin that happens with the see through police helmets.

The two frames I posted for Jim DiEugenio from John Martin shows that Prayer Man is on the Elm Street curb.  If you can't see that then I can't suggest anything to you except what Jack White described years ago about people who have trouble seeing things that other people see.

The scenes by Darnell and Weigman are after the assassination.  When they shot those scenes the presidential limousine was probably going under or pass the Triple Underpass.  I'm not recalling the witness but, I believe someone said the motorcade was delayed for a few moments.  I'm judging the scenes of Prayer Man by Darnell and Weigman as about a minute after the assassination or slightly less.  It doesn't matter whether you believe the assassination occurred at the Grassy Knoll or in front of the TSBD.  The reporters car in the motorcade did not get there until after the assassination was over.

Hence, my contention that Prayer Man is not relevant to the assassination.  But, relevant to what happened afterward.   So, neither Doorway Man or Prayer Man is the white shirted Oswald character.  Wasn't there an Oswald character wearing a light colored jacket at the TSBD also?

I would like to thank Ron Bulman for his comment backing up Jim Hargrove about the brown shirt and white shirt Oswalds being at the Texas Theater.  

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by John Butler