Was there an Oswald double at the TSBD during the assassination?

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

It seems one of the Oswalds interviewed by Ms. Kittrell spoke of prior work as a delivery person in San Diego. 

Don't forget the infamous note that Marguerite supposedly signed on 10/7/55 that was found in Oswald's file at Warren Easton High School:

"Becaus [sic] we are moving to San Diego in the middle of this month Lee must quit
school now. Also, please send by him any papers such as his birth certificate that you may
have. Thank you. Sincirely ...... Mrs. M. Oswald

There are other indications that the Russian-speaking Oswald and his caretaker "mother" may have moved to San Diego, but, of course that is not part of the Official Biography of "Lee Harvey Oswald."

[Gene Kelly]

Jim

Fascinating .... 1955 predates the modern CIA.  So, we cant lay the “Oswald Project” at certain Agency peoples feet.  It’s clearly a Dulles/Angleton creation.  Dulles fascination with the use of doubles is well documented. McCone, Turner, Colby and Schlesinger inherited a bag of worms. 

Gene

[Jim Hargrove]

Gene,

Yeah, the program was probably started by the OSS, and continued as many of the people from that organization moved on to the CIA.  Marguerite Claverie Oswald undoubtedly sealed the deal, probably in the 1940s.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Don't forget the infamous note that Marguerite supposedly signed on 10/7/55 that was found in Oswald's file at Warren Easton High School:

"Becaus [sic] we are moving to San Diego in the middle of this month Lee must quit
school now. Also, please send by him any papers such as his birth certificate that you may
have. Thank you. Sincirely ...... Mrs. M. Oswald

There are other indications that the Russian-speaking Oswald and his caretaker "mother" may have moved to San Diego, but, of course that is not part of the Official Biography of "Lee Harvey Oswald."

 

What "indications" are there that your Russian-speaking Hungarian, "Harvey," and his "caretaker mother" moved to my hometown of San Diego in 1955?

 

--  TG

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

This is covered in detail in Harvey and Lee.  Why don't you check for yourself by (gasp!) reading at least a few pages from the book.  If you don't want to buy it, it is available without cost from at least three different web servers.  Here's a hint: Search for "Murray Chotiner" and "ETI Realty."

And by the way, since you make endless snarky references to "Hungarian Harvey," I will again point out to readers that H&L proponents have never suggested anything other than the POSSIBILITY the the Russian-speaking Oswald was of Hungarian descent.  (I have posted evidence elsewhere that Russian lanuage instruction was required teaching in Hungarian schools, at least after WWII and possibly earlier.) 
 

The following FBI document, an internal teletype from 11/30/63, was withheld from public view for three decades.  Emphasis added....

URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB
TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK
FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/
NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON
LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS - R
ON NOV. THIRTY INSTANT, JACK D. TIPPIT, SELF EMPLOYED
CARTOONIST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES AND WIFE, ONE SIX FOUR
NEW TOWN TURNPIKE, WESTPORT, CONN., ADVISED AS FOLLOWS. AT
APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT
RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN WHO ASKED IF
MR. TIPPIT WAS A POLICEMAN AND IF HE WAS RELATED TO THE POLICE-
MAN TIPPIT WHO WAS SHOT IN DALLAS. MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER
HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER
TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER. ON ANOTHER EXTENSION
JACK TIPPIT LISTENED TO BALANCE OF PHONE CALL. THE WOMAN SAID
SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE. THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
WOULD BE KILLED.
THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW. WHEN MRS. TIPPIT TRIED TO FIND OUT WHOSE
BROTHER IN LAW THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW.
THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. THE WOMAN SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT WEINSTOCK THE EDITOR OF QUOTE WOMAN-S WORLD
UNQUOTE BUT DID NOT GIVE FURTHER DETAILS.. THE WOMAN SAID THE
END PAGE TWO

PAGE THREE:

GROUP IN NEW YORK PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, THAT OF
COURSE THEY WOULD DENY THIS BUT SHE KNEW IT TO BE TRUE.
SHE THEN HUNG UP ABRUPTLY. THE WOMAN NEVER GAVE ANY REASON
FOR HER CALL WHICH SOUNDED LOCAL. MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH. BOTH FELT THE WOMAN SOUNDED LIKE
A MATURE ADULT AND DID NOT HAVE A YOUTHFUL VOICE.
MR. TIPPIT EXPLAINED WOMAN MAY HAVE OBTAINED HIS IDENTITY
FROM AN ARTICLE ON PAGE ONE OF NORWALK, CONN. QUOTE HOUR
UNQUOTE FOR NOVEMBER TWENTYFIVE LAST, WHICH STATED THAT WE MAY
BE A DISTANT RELATIVE OF THE DALLAS POLICEMAN. TIPPIT SAID
ARTICLE RESULTED FROM TELEPHONE CALL FROM REPORTER WHO WAS
CHECKING ALL TIPPITS IN LOCAL TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES.
BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

[David Josephs]

14 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Jim

Fascinating .... 1955 predates the modern CIA.  So, we cant lay the “Oswald Project” at certain Agency peoples feet.  It’s clearly a Dulles/Angleton creation.  Dulles fascination with the use of doubles is well documented. McCone, Turner, Colby and Schlesinger inherited a bag of worms. 

Gene

???   1955 predates the modern CIA    ???

 

The National Security Act of 1947 was a major restructuring of the United States government's military and intelligence agencies following World War II. The majority of the provisions of the Act took effect on September 18, 1947, the day after the Senate confirmed James Forrestal as the first Secretary of Defense.^[1]

Truman signed the CIA National Security Act Amendment into law August 10 1949...

When does the CIA come into existence in your notes? 

[Jim Hargrove]

DJ,

As you indicate, and according to Wikipedia as well, Truman signed the National Security Act, which created the CIA, in 1947. But note that the Wikipedia article further states, “In 1949 [Lawrence] Houston helped to draft the Central Intelligence Agency Act (Public law 81-110), which authorized the agency to use confidential fiscal and administrative procedures, and exempted it from most limitations on the use of Federal funds. It also exempted the CIA from having to disclose its "organization, functions, officials, titles, salaries, or numbers of personnel employed."

It sounds like the CIA didn’t get it’s real covert teeth until that 1949 law.

Now, let’s look at Marguerite….  

She quickly spent her tiny (or non-existent) funds obtained after the death of her husband, Robert E. Lee Oswald in 1939, and by the WWII years was so destitute she couldn’t keep her children.  But then, in 1947, she suddenly had enough money to purchase 101 San Saba in Benbrook in her own name.  Just a year later, she purchased a second him in her own name at 7408 Ewing in Fort Worth, and, in 1951, yet another house at 4833 Birchman in Fort Worth.

I think Marguerite’s money most likely came from a deal she made with U.S. Intel, but it probably started with a precursor to the CIA. CIA funding from the start is not totally impossible, I guess, but the Agency just sounded pretty immature during 1947 and 1948, when Marguerite suddenly was able to purchase two houses in her own name. 
 

[Rick McTague]

41 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

DJ,

As you indicate, and according to Wikipedia as well, Truman signed the National Security Act, which created the CIA, in 1947. But note that the Wikipedia article further states, “In 1949 [Lawrence] Houston helped to draft the Central Intelligence Agency Act (Public law 81-110), which authorized the agency to use confidential fiscal and administrative procedures, and exempted it from most limitations on the use of Federal funds. It also exempted the CIA from having to disclose its "organization, functions, officials, titles, salaries, or numbers of personnel employed."

It sounds like the CIA didn’t get it’s real covert teeth until that 1949 law.

Now, let’s look at Marguerite….  

She quickly spent her tiny (or non-existent) funds obtained after the death of her husband, Robert E. Lee Oswald in 1939, and by the WWII years was so destitute she couldn’t keep her children.  But then, in 1947, she suddenly had enough money to purchase 101 San Saba in Benbrook in her own name.  Just a year later, she purchased a second him in her own name at 7408 Ewing in Fort Worth, and, in 1951, yet another house at 4833 Birchman in Fort Worth.

I think Marguerite’s money most likely came from a deal she made with U.S. Intel, but it probably started with a precursor to the CIA. CIA funding from the start is not totally impossible, I guess, but the Agency just sounded pretty immature during 1947 and 1948, when Marguerite suddenly was able to purchase two houses in her own name. 
 

Jim,

Greetings.  I follow your thorough and well-referenced work from afar and had a quick question on the CIA planning of the 2 Oswalds.  How could they (CIA planners of the two Oswalds project) know as far back as the 40's that they would need to create the two families?  I mean, from this side of history we can look back as you and Mr. Armstrong have done to piece it all together.  But from the viewpoint of planning and executing to set up the two Oswalds to converge at the events in Dallas in 1963, how could they have known even in the late 50's that they would need to have two Oswalds and take steps to set that up before JFK was even running for president?

If a "set up double patsies in case we need them in the future" CIA project existed, shouldn't there have been more than just the one set of two Oswalds?  I mean, wouldn't they have established additional double sets of other people to be used for various purposes?  Are there other cases of the CIA doing this?

I appreciate in advance your consideration.

Rick

[Jim Hargrove]

Rick,

The Oswald Project was not established to assassinate JFK.  It was designed to give a Russian-speaking kid an American identity so he could travel to the USSR and pretend he didn't understand the Russian language.  This is exactly what happened years before the assassination of JFK.

The Harvey and Lee project became entangled in the Kennedy assassination probably beginning in the summer of 1963, or a little earlier.

[Rick McTague]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Rick,

The Oswald Project was not established to assassinate JFK.  It was designed to give a Russian-speaking kid an American identity so he could travel to the USSR and pretend he didn't understand the Russian language.  This is exactly what happened years before the assassination of JFK.

The Harvey and Lee project became entangled in the Kennedy assassination probably beginning in the summer of 1963, or a little earlier.

Jim,

So H&L was a one-off project?  Or were there other sets of doubles, maybe tied with the intelligence operation of fake ex-military defectors to Russia?

The planning, preparation and execution of such a complex project makes me think they wouldn't use it one time, but that there would be additional sets running around.  Any research on this?

Thanks

[Jim Hargrove]

Rick,

I haven't found anything in U.S. history closely comparable to Harvey and Lee, and I've looked, and so has John.  But keep in mind how secretive this stuff must be. CIA accountant James Wilcott told HSCA staff that the cryptonym for the Oswald Project was RX-ZIM, but note how little information you can find on RX-ZIM!

In general, though, examples of identity tricks and impersonations are easy to find in international spycraft.

The book “Castro’s Final Hour” included a photograph (see below) of Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia, top spies for Cuba during the 1960s, ‘70s, and ‘80s. They were identical twins, useful, among other ways, for providing an alibi when one or the other got in trouble.

 

Australian identical twins Don and Peter Field (photo below) were active behind enemy lines in what is now Papua, New Guinea during WWII.  See the story HERE.

 

A Russian named Konon Molody, born in Moscow in 1922, was sent to Berkley, California at the age of seven to learn English and develop familiarity with American customs.  Ten years later, he returned to the USSR, was commissioned in the Soviet Navy, and started espionage training. By 1954, Molody sailed to Canada with a birth certificate and other paperwork for a Canadian named Gordon Arnold Lonsdale who had died c. 1943.  As “Gordon Lonsdale,” Molody had a significant career as a Soviet spy, including interactions with Rudolph Abel in the U.S. and with the British military.  He was convicted of espionage in London in 1961.

I can't remember where I saw it, but one of Allen Dulles's books supposedly extols the usefulness of doubles in spycraft.  It has been said that the famed German spy Mata Hari used stage doubles for her shows so she could be doing other things.  Identity games appear to be pretty common in the world of espionage.

[John Butler]

Jim,

This is the photo I said I would post.

There have been numerous people who have delved into the countless documents and witness testimonies to find the truth and present it to the American Public.  They have done an excellent job and the truth of the assassination of President Kennedy has been exposed. 

The visual record of Lee Harvey Oswald, Dealey Plaza, and related matters has not been overlooked.  But, the research there has not been as extensive as the research into documents and people.

Much has been overlooked and simply not seen.  A good deal of the visual record that concerns matters related to the Kennedy assassination has been altered and are now fraudulent and useless as evidence to build a theory of the assassination or for court purposes.  This a contention that  most people will argue about because they don’t see the wide spread fraudulence.

Here’s an example.  This is a photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk.  My particular bias is looking for evidence of an Oswald Project with more than two members.  Would anyone like to take a challenge and identify who this is.  Is it Lee Oswald or Harvey Oswald or someone else?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John....   On Jack White's poster "THE EVOLUTION OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD" a closeup of "LHO's" face from the image above is labeled as follows: "43. Date unknown, probably summer of 1960.  "Alfred of Cuba" photo.  Square broad chin."  John Armstrong worked with Jack developing the poster.

Speaking of the "square broad chin," compare that chin to other "LHO" mug shots, and it is hard to believe it is the same guy!  For some reason, Jean Souetre was asked about the image and said he knew nothing. 
  

[B. A. Copeland]

On 4/18/2018 at 2:26 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Rick,

CIA accountant James Wilcott told HSCA staff that the cryptonym for the Oswald Project was RX-ZIM, but note how little information you can find on RX-ZIM!

Jim, didn't Wilcott say that it was "approx. RX-ZIM..." or something along those lines? I'm thinking that approximation is relevant as it may not be "exactly" "RX-ZIM" but something close to it if true or accurate according to Wilcott.

[Joseph McBride]

Jack Daniel told me the boys in his film are his sons. They didn't know

the assassination had just occurred. The reason the framing is bad

and he loses most of the limousine when he pans with it as it

passes is that he was holding the camera up to his chest

and not looking through the viewfinder, he said. He did that

because he wanted to look directly at the motorcade.