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John Butler

Was there an Oswald double at the TSBD during the assassination?

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This is something that began to bug me after thinking about Prayer Man and Doorway Man.  Some other things like witness statements have added to this irritation.

So, is there anyone out there who is interested and has anything to add to the following things about Prayer Man and the Doorway Man leading to the idea of there being two Oswalds present during the assassination

Doorway Man:

It is my opinion that I don’t know who the Doorway Man is and you don’t either.  That’s a bold statement and is in need of further explaining.  Roy Truly said on 11-25-63 that Doorway Man looked like Oswald but, was really Billy Lovelady.  Billy Lovelady identified himself as Doorway Man.  That should have ended the argument.  The Doorway Man figure looks like Billy Lovelady unless you look closely.  It is my contention that a face mask has been added to the Doorway Man figure and we will never really know who it is.  It could be Lee Harvey Oswald or an Oswald double that either doesn’t look like or looks to much like Lee Harvey Oswald.  Hence, the need for a face mask.

We do know that this Oswald figure was in the doorway of the TSBD during or directly after the assassination due to Altgens 6 which is not the most reliable piece of evidence.  The Doorway Man figure does not have time to be anywhere else.  Whoever he is he can’t be upstairs shooting the President.

Prayer Man:

It really doesn’t matter what Prayer Man was doing in the TSBD doorway.  The events of Weigman and Darnell are after the assassination occurred.  There is little relevance or evidence  to the notion that Prayer Man was talking with or facing Buell Frazier.  Why would it matter at this point?  All we can say truthfully at this point is that he is in the doorway.

One of the only relevances I can think of for Prayer Man is he is in the doorway when Officer Marion Baker and Roy Truly (according to Roy) enter the building. 

If he is in the doorway he is not likely to beat Baker and Truly to the 2nd floor break room or the 3rd or 4th floor area. 

 The John Martin film shows what Prayer Man was doing during the assassination.  He was on the Elm Street curb west of the TSBD doorway filming the presidential vehicle as it passed by.  There is about 4 or 5 seconds in the film containing this fact.  There is about, I would estimate, 70 frames.

These frames show that Prayer Man had a large camera with a flash attachment.  There are scenes that show a flash possibly greater than a sun reflection.  Prayer Man mostly takes photos with a horizontal perspective but, switches to a vertical perspective when the Secret Service limousine passes by.  Being on the street, he is not upstairs shooting the President.

Doorway Man and Prayer Man:

Neither one of these two can be on the sixth floor shooting President Kennedy.  It is not physically possible.  The important question here is are these two the same man.  My answer for this in no.  Why?

  • Prayer Man is west of the TSBD doorway on Elm Street (John Martin) and Doorway man is in the doorway (Altgens 6) at the same time.  It is impossible for these two men to be one man.

  • Their clothes are the same, or appear to be, but, the way they wear their clothes is different in the Prayer Man and Doorway Man scenes.

  • Prayer Man has his shirt buttoned and his sleeves rolled up above his elbows.  Doorway Man does not have his sleeves rolled up and has his shirt partially unbuttoned.

  • Two men wearing the same clothes differently is an adequate explanation for two Oswalds at the same time.

Witnesses:

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said he saw Oswald leave the building, run down the hill, and get into a light-colored station wagon.  Other witnesses saw Oswald get on a bus and later take a taxi when he left the TSBD.  This conflict raises the question were there two men described as Lee Harvey Oswald leaving the TSBD.  Deputy Roger Craig later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he saw get into the station wagon.

According to Officer Baker and Roy Truly they did not mention seeing Oswald or an Oswald look alike, Prayer Man, in the TSBD doorway when they entered the TSBD. 

There are two stories about what they saw in the TSBD.  Baker and Truly’s story diverge in their earliest statements about who they saw in the TSBD.

Officer Baker- In his 11-22-63 statement did not say he saw Oswald in the 2nd floor break room.  Instead he saw a man that Roy Truly identified as an employee on the 3rd floor or 4th floor.  Baker gave a description of the man.

The question is why was this man never identified?  Roy Truly knew who he was.

Roy Truly-  In his statement to the FBI on 11-22-63 does not mention a man on the 3rd or 4th floor.  He mentions the 2nd floor break room story.  Oswald is seen there by Baker and Truly.

Does this mean there were two Oswalds there and Roy Truly along with the FBI move the 3rd or 4th floor Oswald to the 2nd floor break room.  This doesn’t make sense as a speculation because having Oswald closer to the 6th floor should be the ideal. 

Most witnesses have their testimony taken by the local authorities that day.  FBI witness statements are generally after the statements taken by the local authorities. 

Why is Roy Truly’s first statement taken by the FBI and not Dallas authorities?  Could the 2nd floor break room story be cooked up by Truly and the FBI?

Does anyone have anything that relates to the idea of two Oswalds at the TSBD?  The Kennedy assassination literature is vast and impossible to know all of it.

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Can you show the frames from Martin where you say PM was filming on the Elm Street curb west of the TSBD doorway as the motorcade went by?

You also add details about which way the camera was oriented and that it had a flash attachment.

In all the years I have watched this discussion I do not think anyone has ever offered that up.

So I would like to see the evidence for it.

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Interesting points.  Thanks.

A question I have asked that still goes unanswered is why it looks to me that Billy Lovelady was standing in the doorway wearing LHO's shirt?  

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40 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can you show the frames from Martin where you say PM was filming on the Elm Street curb west of the TSBD doorway as the motorcade went by?

You also add details about which way the camera was oriented and that it had a flash attachment.

In all the years I have watched this discussion I do not think anyone has ever offered that up.

So I would like to see the evidence for it.

Jim, I think what a few have been saying is that there was a camera in the hands of PM, and it coming up to the face suggests filming...

Seems to me, with the empty soda bottle in that corner as well....  glass would pick up the light.

Thoughts?

5ace6aaf21e05_Prayermanlightsource.thumb.jpg.a541808f13e0d617e4cedda40738918e.jpg

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But David, that is not what Butler is saying.

He is saying that PM was in a certain place on the Elm Street curb, west of the doorway and he can tell us now the camera was oriented.

And he says this info is the Martin film.

So before I reply, I would like him to post those frames he is referring to with PM at the curb, west of the doorway, with a camera oriented in two ways.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can you show the frames from Martin where you say PM was filming on the Elm Street curb west of the TSBD doorway as the motorcade went by?

You also add details about which way the camera was oriented and that it had a flash attachment.

In all the years I have watched this discussion I do not think anyone has ever offered that up.

So I would like to see the evidence for it.

I would as well.

Being outdated, - I try my best not asking questions which can be answered through searching. - But it is late, - long day, - exhausted, and terrible concentration.

So I ask, if anyone could be so kind to link to the best/good versions of the relevant films , available now in 2018, - regarding this topic ?

Like the Martin (so can make an attempt to actually see this PM with his camera), Wiegman, Towner, - footage. Or Hughes, Bell, Couch, Mentesana,  and Muchmore - footage , - for that matter.

--------------------------

Hate to derail, - but Frazier was mentioned in the first post, regarding DM/PM ; -- has he been positively identified , without doubt, - in above (or other) mentioned footage, - ( or in affidavits, - testimonies etc. )  ------ standing in the doorway / on steps at this point in time  ?   ( Ridiculous question, - I know. Just not much energy/memory available tonight ) .

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Witnesses:

 

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said he saw Oswald leave the building, run down the hill, and get into a light-colored station wagon.  Other witnesses saw Oswald get on a bus and later take a taxi when he left the TSBD.  This conflict raises the question were there two men described as Lee Harvey Oswald leaving the TSBD.  Deputy Roger Craig later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he saw get into the station wagon.

According to Officer Baker and Roy Truly they did not mention seeing Oswald or an Oswald look alike, Prayer Man, in the TSBD doorway when they entered the TSBD. 

There are two stories about what they saw in the TSBD.  Baker and Truly’s story diverge in their earliest statements about who they saw in the TSBD.

 

Lee O. got into the Rambler, - he assisted newsmen to get to a phone, - he went out the front, - he went out the back, - he left westwards, - he left eastwards, - he ate lunch, - he brought his lunch, - he didn't bring his lunch, he wore a shirt, - he wore a sweater, - he wore a jacket, etc. etc. Testimonies/recollections conflict. Maybe explainable without introducing more than one Oswald. (Not stating a personal opinion, - - just mentioning it.) There are multiple stories.

Did Baker point his gun at everyone he encountered's stomach, -  on his/their journey to the 2nd (and/or 3rd/4th floor), or did he encounter just one person in total ?

I'll stop derailing, - sorry. Too late. Any input appreciated.

 

Edited by Trygve V. Jensen

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Posted (edited)

It's an odd claim, since, by definition, Prayer Man is the person in the shadows on the top of the steps at the west end of the TSBD entrance.

If Mr. Butler wants to point out, for us, the Guy On Elm Street Curb With Large Camera With Flash Attachment (GOESCWLCWFA), and make the case that PM and GOESCWLCWFA are one and the same, let's hear it. But, as it is, he appears to be deconstructing the very definition of PM, and that is not helpful.

Edited by Michael Clark
Misspellings

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Posted (edited)

James DiEugenio,

Thanks for your interest.  Some time back I soured on the issue of posting anything at the Educational Forum.  I think I am over my sulking. 

Anyway, I don’t have a photobucket account anymore and I don’t think I can post photos.  You can go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and look up Prayer Man and John Martin.  That article discusses the issue.

The knowledge of this info about the John Martin film comes from watching Robert Groden’s Assassination films on his DVD.  I used PowerDVD software to look at each frame individually.  It is after posting Prayer Man and John Martin that I went back and looked at that sequence again.  This is when I noticed the flash which I think is a flash attachment.  It could be reflected sunlight but, I think a flash attachment.

Oswald has a large camera.  This occasioned speculation about Buell Frazier and curtain rods.    

The bit about camera orientation I just noticed that recently after reading some Prayer Man comments in another comment thread.

The John Martin film is of a low quality.  You may have to look at these for a while.  People have missed this whole sequence involving Prayer Man for 54 years.

If you will send your email address to jbutler8186@gmail.com I will send several Martin frames showing the things I spoke of in the post.  Or, I can add some additional frames at the website Prayer Man article.  That might take a while. 

Edited by John Butler
I just added 5 Martin frames to the bottom of the website article. Sorry, I don't have any other means than to do that. I can send an email.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Trygve V. Jensen said:

I would as well.

...........

So I ask, if anyone could be so kind to link to the best/good versions of the relevant films , available now in 2018, - regarding this topic ?

Like the Martin (so can make an attempt to actually see this PM with his camera), Wiegman, Towner, - footage. Or Hughes, Bell, Couch, Mentesana,  and Muchmore - footage , - for that matter.

--------------------------

. Any input appreciated.

 

 

Edited by Michael Clark

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34 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

He is saying that PM was in a certain place on the Elm Street curb, west of the doorway and he can tell us now the camera was oriented.

And he says this info is the Martin film.

My bad...

And if that's where he is placing a person filming, by definition it cannot be the man in the corner of the doorway as the limo passes.

I've looked carefully at Martin... figment of an overactive imagination

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Posted (edited)

Thank you Michael C.

I have the Groden DVD's. (Edit : That is the version I now see J. Butler has used, - making this observation.)

Having 2 sets of Martin - frames on my old harddisk. Most probably extracted from that DVD from 2003.

Certaintly I can not spot PM in the Martin - film.

The HD/ 4k scans, are withheld still ? I saw Robert Unger posting the Bronson 1080p - version (Credit Sixth Floor M.).

Edited by Trygve V. Jensen

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Mr. Butler,

 

I looked at the Martin film three times and I cannot see PM there as you say.

Can you please specify the timing at which he appears since there is  timer on Michael's post of the film? 

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On 12/2/2017 at 9:54 AM, John Butler said:

An answer for Sandy Larsen:

I went back and reviewed the Martin film’s sequence showing Prayer Man.  It is about 4 seconds in length and that would be about 70 frames if the film moved at Zapruder speed.  That segment shows Prayer Man on the Elm Street curb as the presidential limousine passes by.  The limo is hard to see since what is show is just the top and the occupant’s heads.  However, at the end of the sequence are several good shots of the limo as it passes the monument walkway unto El Street.  In those frames you can see President Kennedy’s head (the imagery is really not that good).  In this frame you can clearly the limo, Prayer Man and,  two Motorcycle Policemen as the motorcade goes by.

 

martin%20prayerman%20pres%20limo%201_zps

 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mr. Butler,

 

I looked at the Martin film three times and I cannot see PM there as you say.

Can you please specify the timing at which he appears since there is  timer on Michael's post of the film? 

Ahhhhh, ----- how frustrating! Was trying to contribute, by uploading the frames from my harddisk from 2007, - extracted back then, from the Groden - DVD from 2003.

I am literally too tired , to assert if I succeeded, - in ordering/sorting them. I hope so. My supper got cold while doing this, - and should've gone to sleep ages ago.

It is of frustratingly bad quality this version. But nevertheless,- here are the frames extracted. (372 of them). It took what felt like an eternity,- and they were desorted after upload. Motivating factor......- and what a quality..... - it is 2018, - something better should exist by now.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/153357684@N03/albums/72157689774934280

If it can help J. Butler to pinpoint his observations or not,- or assist anyone else regarding this matter, - I have no idea.

Just know,- that now I have to (edit: first finish this sentence) --- eat, - then sleep.

Have a good night / evening !

Edited by Trygve V. Jensen
edit reason, - can't even finish sentences now.

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Pamela Brown,

Thanks for your response.  I never thought of the point you made.  Good question.  Why would Lovelady wear Oswald’s shirt?  I know there was damage control afterwards with Lovelady wearing a similar shirt as Oswalds in some photos.  To me it was really not similar.

The question that irritates is if there was an Oswald double running around on 7 floors of the TSBD then how was he not recognized as such?

To me the Oswald doubles really don’t look that much alike.  Some photos of Oswald don’t look like Oswald.  Hence, face masks, two photos composited together, retouching of photos to enhance similarity, and other tricks.

Thanks for responding.

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