Was there an Oswald double at the TSBD during the assassination?

[Chris Davidson]

47 minutes ago, John Butler said:

 

The two frames I posted for Jim DiEugenio from John Martin shows that Prayer Man is on the Elm Street curb.  If you can't see that then I can't suggest anything to you except what Jack White described years ago about people who have trouble seeing things that other people see.

 

John, 

Viewing Towner's film, the only person I see (your red arrow from Martin) is the lady in red.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LzGsRmWZUcKoYCITNvyX3kii6IaqsI7-/view?usp=sharing

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim Hargrove,

Thanks for that last response.  Let's see if I can summarize what you are saying.

There is an Oswald character in a short sleeve white shirt seen in the TSBD at:

6th floor Sniper's Nest

2nd Floor with Mrs. Reid

Getting into a Nash Rambler.

Is later on seen at the Texas Theater.

I wonder how Roy Truly would have described Officer Baker's 3rd or 4th floor man.  White shirt?  Why has no one ever focused on this guy at the time when questions were being asked by the FBI and the local authorities?

That takes care of one Oswald character.

The brown shirted Oswald character is said to be Doorway Man and Prayer Man.  But, are they the same.  I don't think so based on the way they wore their brown shirt.  I say they are different Oswald characters.  One wears his shirt partially unbuttoned with the sleeves rolled down.  The other wears his shirt fully buttoned with his sleeves rolled up.  This is at the same time in Altgens 6 and John Martin.  Neither one of these pieces of evidence are reliable due to alterations.  In the case of John Martin that happens with the see through police helmets.

The two frames I posted for Jim DiEugenio from John Martin shows that Prayer Man is on the Elm Street curb.  If you can't see that then I can't suggest anything to you except what Jack White described years ago about people who have trouble seeing things that other people see.

The scenes by Darnell and Weigman are after the assassination.  When they shot those scenes the presidential limousine was probably going under or pass the Triple Underpass.  I'm not recalling the witness but, I believe someone said the motorcade was delayed for a few moments.  I'm judging the scenes of Prayer Man by Darnell and Weigman as about a minute after the assassination or slightly less.  It doesn't matter whether you believe the assassination occurred at the Grassy Knoll or in front of the TSBD.  The reporters car in the motorcade did not get there until after the assassination was over.

Hence, my contention that Prayer Man is not relevant to the assassination.  But, relevant to what happened afterward.   So, neither Doorway Man or Prayer Man is the white shirted Oswald character.  Wasn't there an Oswald character wearing a light colored jacket at the TSBD also?

I would like to thank Ron Bulman for his comment backing up Jim Hargrove about the brown shirt and white shirt Oswalds being at the Texas Theater.  

 

Yes, I agree with that brief summary of the white-shirted Oswald seen by Mrs. Reid inside the TSBD and who soon got into the Nash Rambler.  But I’d rather not rely on those fuzzy and controversial images outside the TSBD to discuss the brown-shirted Oswald, because eyewitness testimony will do nicely.

In his WC testimony, Marrion Baker said the Oswald he encountered in the TSBD had a “light brown jacket” but then, just a few seconds later, described it as a “brown-type shirt that was out… I could have mistaken it for a jacket.”  As we know, that heavy brown shirt—which eventually became the arrest shirt--could easily be mistaken for a jacket.

 

Before leaving the Book Depository, the brown-shirted Oswald apparently picked up his jacket from the domino room and carried it outside.  Although some people believe Mrs. Bledsoe was not credible about her description of Oswald on McWatters bus, she surely described that brown shirt:  “He had on a brown shirt… Hole in the sleeve right here.”  

Cab driver William Whaley also described Oswald wearing a brown shirt over his t-shirt and under a jacket.   Whaley’s desciption of the brown-shirted Oswald was spot-on.  He even described Oswald’s bracelet to the WC. 

“Yes, sir: he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet....I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself ... It was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them."

On my website, John Armstrong wrote: “Oswald's bracelet is listed on a DPD property form, found in Box 1, folder 8, item 1 at the Dallas Archives. It is identified as ‘One I.D. stretch band with 'Lee' inscribed.’”

 

[Ian Lloyd]

I thought that Frankie Kaiser supposedly 'found' LHO's jacket on a windowsill a week or 2 after the assassination???

(The same Frankie Kaiser who also found LHO's clipboard and was at the dentist on the 22nd, the same dentist that Marina (and/or Blesdoe - I can't quite recall now) was using????)

[Jim Hargrove]

Yeah, the jacket is confusing.  Marina said her husband owned two jackets, one light blue and the other gray.  For the brown-shirted Oswald who took the bus and taxi ride,  McWatters, Roy Milton Jones, and Whaley all said he had on a grey/light blue jacket.  Then, of course, there were several witnesses who called the brown shirt a brown jacket.  It’s probably best to stick to the shirt colors, because that it what clearly differentiates the bus/taxi Oswald (long sleeve brown shirt) from the Nash Rambler Oswald (short sleeve white shirt).

[Ian Lloyd]

So, if Kaiser found LHO's grey/light blue jacket in the TSBD after the 22nd, where does that leave McWatters et al????...

Edited April 14, 2018 by Ian Lloyd
Update

[Mark Knight]

So Oswald allegedly left his jacket at the TSBD (to be found weeks later)...

...went back to his rooming house and allegedly changed clothes...

...allegedly dropped another jacket behind the Texaco station...

...and, after allegedly changing clothes at the rooming house, is arrested wearing the same shirt he allegedly wore on the bus and in the taxi, BEFORE he allegedly changed clothes.

Is there anything wrong about this narrative?

[Jim Hargrove]

LOL.

[Jim Hargrove]

21 minutes ago, Ian Lloyd said:

So, if Kaiser found LHO's grey/light blue jacket in the TSBD after the 22nd, where does that leave McWatters et al????...

I wouldn’t rely on McWatters very much because he didn’t seem to remember the brown-shirted Oswald very well.  But cab driver Whaley remembered him nearly perfectly, and Whaley said Oswald wore a jacket over the brown shirt.

The Tenth and Patton Oswald wore a short sleeve white shirt, and allegedly dropped a Eisenhower-style jacket near the crime scene.  

 

It looks a lot like the jacket worn in this 1958 photo taken by Robert Oswald.

 

The man shown in this photo, we believe, is the Oswald who wore a short sleeve white shirt on 11/22/63.

[Ian Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

So Oswald allegedly left his jacket at the TSBD (to be found weeks later)...

...went back to his rooming house and allegedly changed clothes...

...allegedly dropped another jacket behind the Texaco station...

...and, after allegedly changing clothes at the rooming house, is arrested wearing the same shirt he allegedly wore on the bus and in the taxi, BEFORE he allegedly changed clothes.

Is there anything wrong about this narrative?

I think that sums it up perfectly Mark!!!☺ Can't see anything wrong there!!!...😕

[Jim Hargrove]

Ah, but it makes a lot more sense once we understand that we're talking about two different guys, which we clearly are.

The first fellow was wearing a short sleeved white shirt and he got into a Nash Rambler.

The second guy was in a long sleeved brown shirt and he got on a bus and then entered a taxi.

Very little about "Oswald" on 11/22/63 makes sense until that basic fact is understood.

[John Butler]

Jim Hargrove, others,

Thanks.  I’m learning a lot.  I couldn’t remember anything about a short sleeve white shirt except for Robert Edwards.

Cold you give me the reference for Mrs. Reed and Roger Craig.

it is my contention that the Oswald doubles don’t look that much alike.  Let’s say that the brown shirt Oswald is Harvey.  The man killed by Jack Ruby.  And, Lee is the white shirt Oswald.  Here’s my problem 

Roger  Craig saw white shirt Lee get into the rambler.  And, identified brown shirt Harvey as Lee Harvey Oswald.  If you use the Oswald you showed earlier then the two Oswald’s even look less alike then photos I would use.  

Is this just another Oswald what the heck.

[John Butler]

It is my contention that Prayer Man walked down to the Elm St curb to photograph the President.  He has plenty of time to walk back to the doorway of the TSBD.  It is only about 20 or 30 feet and be filmed by Darnell and Weigman.

That leaves the problem of the Doorway Man.  Who was he?  I don’t know.  He is not Lovelady, might be Oswald, or an unknown.

That’s 3 Oswald’s or doubles.  Who would be dumb enough to put 3 Oswald’s into such a complex situation?

If Officer Baker’s 3rd or 4th floor makes 4 and who was the second floor Oswald.  Isn’t this ridiculous?

[Jim Hargrove]

To John Butler....

There were only two Oswalds at the TSBD, regardless of all the fuzzy images you wish to conjure (which, for all I know, may show both of them or neither of them). One Oswald wore a white shirt and got into the Nash Rambler; the other wore a dark brown shirt and boarded the bus and then the taxi.  Mrs. Reid and Roger Craig, among others, saw the white-shirted Oswald who got into the Nash Rambler.

from the testimony of Mrs. Robert A. Reid (emphasis added):

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? 
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. 
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? 
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? 
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. 

Roger Craig described the Oswald who got into the Nash Rambler as wearing a "light tan shirt," which is a lot closer to white than the dark brown shirt worn by the other Oswald.

from Craig's testimony....

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. 
Mr. BELIN - What about the man who was driving the car?

As to how much alike the two Oswalds appeared, it's all in the eyes of the beholder.  Our own Tracy Parnell insists that the 77 mug shots on Jack White's "Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald" poster (see my post above) are all "obviously" the same person, even though that poster includes images of both Oswalds that you don't think look alike.

Laura Kittrell of the Texas Employment Commission interviewed both Oswalds just weeks before the assassination.  She was able to tell them apart, but she observed that they had "the same general outline and coloring and build" but behaved differently.

From the HSCA's Gaeton Fonzi's report on his interview with Kittrell:

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

Jim Hargrove,

So. Can we say that a short sleeve white shirt in not a white polo or t shirt.  If so then Roger Craig and Mrs. Reid can be scratched from the list of people who saw a short sleeve white shirt.  Robert Edwards said short sleeve white shirt.  

I can’t find others.  There are tan, light colored, light blue shirts mentioned.  Light colored jackets tan or grey mentioned but, few references a short sleeve white shirt mentioned.  There are references to t shirts or polo shirts.

Can you name those who mentioned exactly a white short sleeve shirt and not something close in nature.

If you go back to some December posts I made on Prayer Man I said the images are indistinct in Darnell and Weismann.  The Martin frames I posted at that time ended the huge thread that was locked at the top of the opening page.  

The images in the Martin frames are also indistinct.  But, there are enough similarities to associate Darnell, Weigman, and Martin.

Anything about Prayer Man is a fuzzy image.  

I fail to see the relevance that generated over 4000 comments and over 400,000 views.  I scanned through that looking for references to John Martin.  I didn’t find any.

Whether someone sees Prayer Man on Elm Street is there their choice to make for whatever reasons.  I can only report what I see.

Thank you for responding reasonably.  One of the guys who responded earlier who I generally do not respond to attacked me in my first posts here years back with one of the most vicious and vile attacks I have had on this forum.  He is just one a small group that makes a newcomers posts to this session a horror story.  They Bigfoot just about every thread.

I thoroughly support Gorden’s tougher stance.

[Gene Kelly]

John:

Jim Hargrove points out an important fact about the story of Laura Kittrell of the Texas Employment Commission, who interviewed both Oswalds prior to the assassination.  After her first encounter/interview,  a second "Oswald" showed up for another interview (about one week later).  Ms. Kittrell realized this Oswald was not the same person she had interviewed previously ... the two individuals were similar - but different - people:

 "The man I remember as (Harvey) Oswald, and the man I remember as the Teamster were much alike in size, shape and outline, generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner. The man I remember as Oswald was a trim, energetic, compact, well-knit person, who sat on the edge of a chair (Harvey). The man I remember as the Teamster, was sprawled over his chair and rather messy looking (Lee)".

 Kittrell gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas.  Her statement was hand-carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript were  ignored and suppressed. The FBI also interviewed Kittrell on June 4, 1965.  Her statement was eventually released and only made public many years later, in 1994.  Conflicting information exists about Oswald's travels at that particular time. The FBI had tracked Oswald's return trip to the U.S. from Mexico City, indicating that he took a La Frontera bus, arriving at the border town on Nuevo Laredo on the morning of 10/3/63.  However, Oswald also applied for unemployment compensation at the Texas Employment Commission that same day.  Therefore, the FBI report found it "highly improbable that Oswald could have traveled" the 426 miles "from Laredo to Dallas, in time to appear personally" before Laurel Kittrell at the Texas Employment Commission. The agent who wrote the report was obviously unaware that two people were sharing the identity of Oswald.

Gene