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Was there an Oswald double at the TSBD during the assassination?


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On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 5:44 AM, Gene Kelly said:

John:

Jim Hargrove points out an important fact about the story of Laura Kittrell of the Texas Employment Commission, who interviewed both Oswalds prior to the assassination.  After her first encounter/interview,  a second "Oswald" showed up for another interview (about one week later).  Ms. Kittrell realized this Oswald was not the same person she had interviewed previously ... the two individuals were similar - but different - people:

 "The man I remember as (Harvey) Oswald, and the man I remember as the Teamster were much alike in size, shape and outline, generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner. The man I remember as Oswald was a trim, energetic, compact, well-knit person, who sat on the edge of a chair (Harvey). The man I remember as the Teamster, was sprawled over his chair and rather messy looking (Lee)".

 Kittrell gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas.  Her statement was hand-carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript were  ignored and suppressed. The FBI also interviewed Kittrell on June 4, 1965.  Her statement was eventually released and only made public many years later, in 1994.  Conflicting information exists about Oswald's travels at that particular time. The FBI had tracked Oswald's return trip to the U.S. from Mexico City, indicating that he took a La Frontera bus, arriving at the border town on Nuevo Laredo on the morning of 10/3/63.  However, Oswald also applied for unemployment compensation at the Texas Employment Commission that same day.  Therefore, the FBI report found it "highly improbable that Oswald could have traveled" the 426 miles "from Laredo to Dallas, in time to appear personally" before Laurel Kittrell at the Texas Employment Commission. The agent who wrote the report was obviously unaware that two people were sharing the identity of Oswald.

Gene

The SS wrote a memo stating that based on the "current" travel evidence it was not possible for Oswald to make the TEC appt.....  So the return travel was changed from a 2pm 10/2 departure to 8:30 am...

The original 2pm time was based on the photo which had mystery man aka Oswald, at 12:22pm on the 2rd...

 

So he had to leave after that.... 

 

Edited by David Josephs
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The SS doc I referred to above.  Except evidence claims he is out front of the hotel at 8am 10/2 asking for a taxi to the bus terminals only a short walk away...

https://kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-4-leaving-mexico-part-1

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
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33 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

John:

Jim Hargrove points out an important fact about the story of Laura Kittrell of the Texas Employment Commission, who interviewed both Oswalds prior to the assassination.  After her first encounter/interview,  a second "Oswald" showed up for another interview (about one week later).  Ms. Kittrell realized this Oswald was not the same person she had interviewed previously ... the two individuals were similar - but different - people:

 "The man I remember as (Harvey) Oswald, and the man I remember as the Teamster were much alike in size, shape and outline, generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner. The man I remember as Oswald was a trim, energetic, compact, well-knit person, who sat on the edge of a chair (Harvey). The man I remember as the Teamster, was sprawled over his chair and rather messy looking (Lee)".

 Kittrell gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas.  Her statement was hand-carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript were  ignored and suppressed. The FBI also interviewed Kittrell on June 4, 1965.  Her statement was eventually released and only made public many years later, in 1994.  Conflicting information exists about Oswald's travels at that particular time. The FBI had tracked Oswald's return trip to the U.S. from Mexico City, indicating that he took a La Frontera bus, arriving at the border town on Nuevo Laredo on the morning of 10/3/63.  However, Oswald also applied for unemployment compensation at the Texas Employment Commission that same day.  Therefore, the FBI report found it "highly improbable that Oswald could have traveled" the 426 miles "from Laredo to Dallas, in time to appear personally" before Laurel Kittrell at the Texas Employment Commission. The agent who wrote the report was obviously unaware that two people were sharing the identity of Oswald.

Gene

Thanks for this, Gene.

Laura Kittrell's observations are some of the most important in the entire literature of the Kennedy assassination.  John compiled nearly 200 pages of material by and about her, all of which is available without cost at Baylor University's John Armstrong Collection.  To go directly to the Kittrell file, just follow the link below.  When you get there, I'd suggest you click the "Download" button and save the file to your local machine to make viewing easier.

Laura Kittrell
 

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13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

from the testimony of Mrs. Robert A. Reid (emphasis added):

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? 
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. 
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? 
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? 
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. 

Roger Craig described the Oswald who got into the Nash Rambler as wearing a "light tan shirt," which is a lot closer to white than the dark brown shirt worn by the other Oswald.

from Craig's testimony....

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. 
Mr. BELIN - What about the man who was driving the car?

 

 

9 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim Hargrove,

So. Can we say that a short sleeve white shirt in not a white polo or t shirt.  If so then Roger Craig and Mrs. Reid can be scratched from the list of people who saw a short sleeve white shirt.  Robert Edwards said short sleeve white shirt.  

I can’t find others.  There are tan, light colored, light blue shirts mentioned.  Light colored jackets tan or grey mentioned but, few references a short sleeve white shirt mentioned.  There are references to t shirts or polo shirts.

Can you name those who mentioned exactly a white short sleeve shirt and not something close in nature.

John,

There are always going to be minor differences in eyewitness observations.  Rather than looking for the magic words "short sleeve shirt," let's look at this more realistically.  Follow the descriptions of an Oswald in a dark shirt vs. an Oswald in a white or light shirt.

Since Mrs. Reid's "white T-shirt" and Roger Craig's "light tan shirt" apparently strike you as fair descriptions of the dark brown shirt "Lee Harvey Oswald" wore on the bus and taxi ride, there doesn't seem much point in me spending the time to track down other references to the white or light colored shirt worn by the Nash Rambler Oswald.

Perhaps you would explain why Dallas police radio broadcast again and again that the suspect in the Tippit shooting was wearing not a brown shirt, but a white shirt.

Police_Rad_Wht_Shrt.jpg


 

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Thanks for the link, Jim:

It would be interesting to know what became of Ms. Kittrell.   I wonder if the HSCA ever tried to contact her.   I appreciate the controversy about multiple Oswalds, as it makes one's head spin.  And I do admire the work of John Armstrong.   There simply had to be more than one "Oswald" ... and keeping a lid on that mystery (by those hiding/protecting something) seems central to the difficulties in unravelling this case.  Plus, it would explain the need to distract and obfuscate with disinformation, even to present day.  

Gene

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Thanks Jim Hargrove, Ian Llyoyd, Gene Kelley, others,

You fellows are certainly providing great info.  And, this is helpful to figuring out Oswalds.

I am a firm believer in Harvey and Lee.

Further more I believe there was an Oswald Project both here and in Russia.  Harvey and Lee can be identified by photos when they were young.

There is a photo of high school Lee Oswald talking to some high school girl.  I’m sure you are familiar with it.  Lee does not have earlobes.

When compared to an Elementary photo of Harvey.  Harvey has earlobes.  At first this doesn’t sound like much or anything of importance but, it is.  Having earlobes or not is genetic.  It is a condition that does not change in life.  

Many of the photos of an alleged Harvey passing out pamphlets in New Orleans is Lee or some other double.  Harvey, the man killed by Jack Ruby, has earlobes and can be identified by those earlobes.  And, Lee doess not and can be identified by his lack of earlobes.

There is a lot of photo alteration where Harvey and Lee are concerned.  Photos of Harvey that we think are him are actually frauds.

A good example of this is a photo of Harvey Oswald and a friend in Russia.  This friend has been identified as an assassin.  I don’t now if that is true or not.  Oswald in that photo has only the top half of Harvey’s head pasted into an unknown person.

I’m working off an iPad at present and don’t have access to my files.  So, I can’t post this photo at present.  It is really bad photo editing when enlarged and you can see the details.

 

Edited by John Butler
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Thanks, John.  I think you're absolutely correct about the fraudulent photos.  As I always say, I'm not very good with faces, but I do believe that Sandy Larsen and others before him have demonstrated that some of the photos were actually composite images of two different people.

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On 4/15/2018 at 12:25 PM, Gene Kelly said:

Thanks for the link, Jim:

It would be interesting to know what became of Ms. Kittrell.   I wonder if the HSCA ever tried to contact her.   I appreciate the controversy about multiple Oswalds, as it makes one's head spin.  And I do admire the work of John Armstrong.   There simply had to be more than one "Oswald" ... and keeping a lid on that mystery (by those hiding/protecting something) seems central to the difficulties in unravelling this case.  Plus, it would explain the need to distract and obfuscate with disinformation, even to present day.  

Gene

Gene,

This confused me too for several years, because it seems impossible that the WC would have totally ignored Kittrell’s first-hand description of the two Oswalds, especially considering the attention it got from the Feds in 1963/1964.  But the WC ignored her. Her name doesn’t appear once in the WC Report. 

Many of the documents we have on Kittrell were formally put into the National Archives by staff members of the HSCA.  For example, the excerpts of two pages below, describing the differences Kittrell observed in the two Oswalds, was from a written report by the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi.  He did an extensive interview with her while employed by the Select Committee on Assassinations.

Kittrell.gif

 

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Thanks Jim,

I am out of Dodge currently.  When I return home I will post this photo I spoke of in my last post.  It is really interesting in the sense I don’t think anyone has noticed it’s fraudulence.  

The question who was Oswald bears on a lot of other threads. Karl Kinaski, hope I spelled that right, post about whether Oswald spoke Russian or not leads me to my bias of the Oswald Project in the USSR.  The photo l am talking about leads one to doubt a lot of things Oswald.

I speculate some Oswald might have and others not.  Again, speculation that Marina would know as the wife of the Oswald Project.

Thats going out to the end of the limb on this speculation.  But, sometimes that’s good in the sense you might notice something odd and useful.  After all, Marina said she had two husbands.  I am just wondering did she have more than two?

 

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Jim:

I read the Baylor material regarding the Kittrell documents (surfaced during HSCA) ..... very illuminating.  She was quite frustrated that the Warren Commission essentially ignored her.  The anecdote about the Teamsters (but not having a drivers license) is priceless.  One wonders why both of these imposter/patsies went through with the unemployment interviews.  It would seem that they were being coordinated (and apparently must have known of each other too).  Just this aspect alone is enough to discredit what the WC investigation did ... and there are many examples where the WC underachieved and disappointed the American electorate.  What a travesty of justice.   Ms. Kittrell' s account (and testimony) reinforces the work of John Armstrong ... it alone is enough to think twice (as in two) about Oswald.  Cognitive dissonance at work.

Gene

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Before we jump too heavily on the Teamsters/no driver's license issue, I want to point out that locally, the Teamsters Union represents the workers at the area Kroger grocery warehouse. Not only the truck drivers, but the laborers on the warehouse floor as well.

So it's not unreasonable to be a member of the Teamsters Union and not have a driver's license. You don't need a driver's license to operate a forklift.

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12 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Cognitive dissonance at work.

Indeed!  After thinking about it for 20 years, I think that's what Alice, Texas was all about.

I've wondered endlessly also why both Oswalds would show up at the TEC, potentially exposing the whole op.  For a long time, I thought it was to clear up a couple of things in Harvey's paperwork, but the more I think about it, it may have been a test to see if the two could pass for each other.  After all, this was just about the time the other Oswald started showing up all over the Dallas area doing incriminating things.

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Jim, maybe I missed something earlier in this thread, apologies if so.  But I think I remember reading something about Alice Texas in relation to the assassination but not where I might have read such or what it was about.  Given the location of Alice I'm curious how it might relate.  

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16 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Jim, maybe I missed something earlier in this thread, apologies if so.  But I think I remember reading something about Alice Texas in relation to the assassination but not where I might have read such or what it was about.  Given the location of Alice I'm curious how it might relate.  

Ron,

See    http://jfklancer.com/Page1.html

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Jim:

I did not know about all of the South Texas sightings, so thanks for that. The document cited as recently found in the Archives -  an internal Warren Commission document from David Slawson to members of the staff - is revealing:

"We are beginning to uncover bits of evidence which indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald may have been better able to drive a car than we previously believed. If this is so, it is significant primarily because he must have had a motive for keeping his ability secret. Likewise, if Marina knew of his driving ability and has failed to disclose it to the Commission she too must have some motive for keeping it a secret."

In contrast, we have Texas motor vehicle division employees who claim to have seen a driver's license issued to Oswald.  Marina and Ruth Paine allegedly did not see Harvey Oswald from the time he departed New Orleans until he turned up in Dallas in early October ... but Rachel Oswald was born on October 20th, and in none of these South Texas accounts is the woman with "Oswald" described as being pregnant.  Something fishy was going on.  As far as the Teamsters are concerned, their history is associated with professional drivers.  To Mark's point, they did not just exclusively consist of just drivers. While Teamsters are known as the champion of freight drivers and warehouse workers, they have organized workers in  every occupation imaginable, both professional and non-professional, private sector and public sector.  Not sure about their rules in the 1960's, but today if your job requires driving and your license is suspended, you must inform the company as soon as you know.  It seems one of the Oswalds interviewed by Ms. Kittrell spoke of prior work as a delivery person in San Diego. 

"Curiouser and curiouser!” cried Alice ... she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English (how was her Russian?) 

Gene

 

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