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6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I will prepare two more mannequins by pushing the inseam in two steps (about 2 and 4 inches ) higher and would be grateful if you could have a look and say which would be the best. However, I assume that I am not modeling Lee Oswald's true inseam height (because I cannot measure the length of his inner leg)  but rather the  "pants inseam", the one we see in his NO PD photograph and which is much lower than his true inseam.

What I also can do is to model a reasonable inseam (e.g., 32 inch) and then sculpt his pants to drag a portion of the pants down to reproduce his NO PD figure. However, this can only be done outside Poser.

 

 

 

 

Andrej,

Instead of creating more work for yourself, is it possible using the scale I supplied, and I'm assuming that the bottom of your lower block is the ground, can you tell me how long Oswald's leg is?

 

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44 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Andrej,

Instead of creating more work for yourself, is it possible using the scale I supplied, and I'm assuming that the bottom of your lower block is the ground, can you tell me how long Oswald's leg is?

  

Chris:

I am not working with absolute dimensions of human bodies until I get the mannequins into Sketchup, however, I can do it easily if the purpose is only to measure the length of the inner leg (just ignoring that the guy is triangulated and the colors are weird...). Do you want to know how long is his leg in the James Poser mannequin in the left-hand panel of your composite when this mannequin is 5'9''?

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11 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Chris:

I am not working with absolute dimensions of human bodies until I get the mannequins into Sketchup,

I understand.

however, I can do it easily if the purpose is only to measure the length of the inner leg (just ignoring that the guy is triangulated and the colors are weird...).

Can you measure using this method:    https://www.spacycles.co.uk/info/leglength.php 

Do you want to know how long is his leg in the James Poser mannequin in the left-hand panel of your composite when this mannequin is 5'9''?

Since the mannequin and Oswald are scaled to the same height (69increments/inches), I don't believe it should matter. 

 

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Chris:

Here we go with some realistic measurements of James Poser's body. The top picture is the overall figure. Strangely enough, James Poser has white hair after importing from Poser, therefore, the next picture shows the top of his head so that it is possible to check that his body height was 5'9''. The final picture is a detailed view of James Poser's inseam region. I read the height of his inseam as 2'6'' or 30''. 

  1. pm_stick_full1.jpgpm_topstick1.jpgpm_bottom1.jpg
Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Does anyone know Buell Frazier's height.  I did at one time but, have lost track of that.  I'm having a hard time finding that on the internet.  Is that meaningful?

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44 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Does anyone know Buell Frazier's height.  I did at one time but, have lost track of that.  I'm having a hard time finding that on the internet.  Is that meaningful?



6' 0.5"

 

-- T.G.

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Thanks T.G. for that info. 

So, Buell Frazier is 6 feet and ½ inches in height.  If you relate that to Prayer Man then Prayer man could be short.

In an earlier post, I said Prayer Man appeared to be short.  I rarely ever do pin point accuracy because generally there is no way to do that.  If you draw a line from the top of Prayer Man’s head to Buell Frazier then you will see that Buell is head taller than Prayer Man.  He looks really tall in comparison.

If Prayer Man was Harvey Oswald he would be 3’.05” shorter than Buell Frazier rather a head shorter.  The height of the first step going down from the landing in the doorway is 7 inches. 

The average length of the male human head is 9.4 inches which covers 99% of all human males.   If we add 7 inches to Prayer Man standing on the first step this would put him more in tune with the height of Buell Frazier.  There is some variance there.  If someone is interested they can do the math.

What I am saying here is that Andrej’s supposition that Prayer Man is Oswald might be the way to go.  And, he is doing a thorough job of fleshing out his idea.   

My personal belief is that Prayer Man is Harvey Oswald.  This comes from doing countless comparison of objects in my art work.  However, due to the vagueness of the imagery there is no way to prove that.  Now that I think I understand what Andrej is doing, I have to give him a thumbs up and keep up the good work.     

There are some shadow problems with that frame's imagery.

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4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Chris:

Here we go with some realistic measurements of James Poser's body. The top picture is the overall figure. Strangely enough, James Poser has white hair after importing from Poser, therefore, the next picture shows the top of his head so that it is possible to check that his body height was 5'9''. The final picture is a detailed view of James Poser's inseam region. I read the height of his inseam as 2'6'' or 30''. 

  1. pm_stick_full1.jpgpm_topstick1.jpgpm_bottom1.jpg

Andrej,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TpCqAW19guUqXmzyu0nvKMhDgC4Dt0BU/view?usp=sharing

I took the new James Poser and scaled him down at 96.5% (2.5inches too tall) to match the existing Oswald height.

Is Poser the correct height now or do I need to upscale Oswald to Poser's height?

Just to be clear, does the measurement via the checkered path(30 inches mentioned) equal your leg length (not the inseam) for Oswald?

 

 

 

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So, there are shadow problems.  I posted a shadow problem several years ago that is similar to the problems in this Darnell frame.  It concerned people walking and running up on the Grassy Knoll just after the presidential limousine cleared the area.  The people on Elm Street shadows went off to their right.  The shadows of people climbing the hill went directly in front of them.

This photo was taken outside with the sun as the only light source.  Therefore, all shadows should move in the same direction.  Shadows going in two different directions said that there was two different times present in one photo.  This is a physical impossibility.  The same problem is present in the Backyard Photos with shadows moving in 3 directions.

When I pointed this out in the photo concerning shadows on the Grassy Knoll some wag said well of course their shadows are going straight uphill because they are.

The same problem exists in the Darnell frame.  David Josephs points this out on page 2 of this thread.  Only, he didn’t go far enough in his reasoning in my opinion.  I don’t think he looked at the angle of the shadow as versus the angle of the shadows of the people on the street.

Bart Kamp pasted this photo on prayerman.com.  The notes explain some of the thinking on how these shadows are not quite correct.

 

 

Notice that the shadow’s angle inside the doorway of the TSBD landing is much steeper than the shadows of people on the street.  Inside the landing the ceiling shadows are lighter (picture left) and should be darker than the shadows (picture right) where they should be lighter.

When you blow this scene up you will see that there is a problem with the shadows of Prayer Man’s lower body.  There is a darker black square there for the lower body with a lighter square for the upper body.  Why?

 

These shadow problems suggest tampering with the photo to conceal something.  That something may very well be the identity of Prayer Man as Oswald.

Edited by John Butler
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17 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

I took the new James Poser and scaled him down at 96.5% (2.5inches too tall) to match the existing Oswald height.

Is Poser the correct height now or do I need to upscale Oswald to Poser's height?

Just to be clear, does the measurement via the checkered path(30 inches mentioned) equal your leg length (not the inseam) for Oswald?

Thanks, Chris for the new overlay. As far as the leg length is concerned, yes, the 30 '' interval corresponds to the leg length measured by the method recommended on the cyclist webpage.

measurementtechnique-13.jpg

However, I was puzzled by the necessity to downscale James Poser to match Lee Oswald's body in the NO PD picture. Could you please try to overlay the figure below - I have calibrated the measuring stick and found about a half of inch difference over the 8 feet stick compared to the Sketchup tape measure. Also, I changed the focal length of Sketchup camera from a very wide angle to a standard focal length. I wonder if you still need to downscale James to match Lee Oswald in NO PD picture.

If this problem continues, it could be due to "taping" the ruler onto a 2D photograph. The ruler on a 2D picture, of course, suggests it has been mounted on the wall. However, Lee stood an inch or two in front of the wall and his body had a depth. Thus, although Lee's body is perfectly aligned to a 5'9'' height in the 3D picture, actually, due to perspective and depth, his height would not be 5'9''. I am not sure if he would be taller or shorter than 5'9'', this may depend on the view angle of the camera.

 

pm_full_revised.jpg?w=498

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, John Butler said:

  .....

 

John,

 

It seems to me that you're looking at a copy of a Darnell frame in which someone has (probably unintentionally) reduced/changed the shadows by fiddling with the "contrast" adjustment, you know, in an attempt to "bring out" Sarah Stanton, I mean "Prayer Man" up there on the landing, or some such thing..

 

--  T.G.

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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17 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Andrej,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TpCqAW19guUqXmzyu0nvKMhDgC4Dt0BU/view?usp=sharing

I took the new James Poser and scaled him down at 96.5% (2.5inches too tall) to match the existing Oswald height.

Is Poser the correct height now or do I need to upscale Oswald to Poser's height?

Just to be clear, does the measurement via the checkered path(30 inches mentioned) equal your leg length (not the inseam) for Oswald?

 

 

... cannot cancel what I started earlier...

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30 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

... cannot cancel what I started earlier...

 

Andrej,

 

If the only way you could get your 5' 9" Oswald to look "right" in your very creative graphics (e.g., height-wise in relation to Frazier; with sunlight only on "his" right hand, etc, etc) was to have "him" doing "The Limbo" while straddling two steps, and with one leg six inches longer than the other, ..... would you do it?

You know, just to absolutely prove that Oswald was innocent?

 

--  T.G.

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On 5/7/2018 at 11:21 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Andrej,

I"m assuming the bottom of the lower block to the top of the upper block represents 69 inches.

If you were to place the bottom of the lower block even with the tip of Oswald's shoe, 

 

 

 

 

Andrej,

I believe if you align (your lower block bottom edge) with the tip of Oswald's shoe as the starting measuring point, this will pick up the additional inches.

As it stands now, that lower block ends at the upper ankle, which on my foot, is about 3 inches from the ground. Imo

Anyhow,

Here is the new Poser (upscaled to 107.75%), it is at the end so you get an idea of the adjustment difference you made between it and the previous Poser.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kp0XPlBTRStQP0xx2kqOG1P0g2QFnB-n/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

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Thanks for that tip T.G. 

Let's see if I have got it right because, I want to remember this.  You change the contrast and you can reduce / change the shadows.  And, this explains why there are different shadow directions in the frame.  Got it. 

You keep mentioning Sarah Stanton.  I don't know anything about Sarah Stanton.  Can you fill me in why she is important.

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