The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

[James DiEugenio]

From the very first time I encountered Ward, this is the technique he used.  He said that Trejo, of all people, relied on primary documents and evidence, and somehow I did not.

When I referred him to a page in Jim Douglass's book about the Paines, he said that this was not primary evidence. Which showed me he did not look at the page.  Because that page was a long excerpt from Ruth Paine's testimony.

Now here he evidently has not read the two Hunt essays.  Because everything that John refers to in those essays is illustrated with primary documents he got from the National Archives.  And most of them are pictured  in the essays.

Can we really think Ward does not understand that?  My point nine, is a reference to the WC appendixes.  Gary Aguilar's visit with Bardwell Odum is backed up by FBI documents he got from NARA--or are strangely missing--plus an interview he did with Odum at his home. 

I could go on and on and on.  But again, I invite the reader to read the essay and click through to Hunt's work.  Then they will see  the evidence that Ward refuses to look at.  Its very easy to do.

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I'll provide Dale Myers with a bit of "equal time" here:

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2014/02/mcbrides-folly-how-conspirati-avoid.html

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/12/tippit-murder-why-conspiracy-theorists-can't-tell-the-truth.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/12/dale-myers-and-don-thomas.html

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/11/acquilla-clemons-and-murder-of-jd-tippit.html

 

Why does he deserve equal time?  He's a fiction writer for operation mockingbird.  I thought we were looking for the Truth on this site.

[Jason Ward]

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

From the very first time I encountered Ward, this is the technique he used

Fascinating.  Is this forum about Jason Ward?   

Where's Paul B to lecture you about posting only substance?

..and yes "my" technique is insisting on primary sources, aka evidence.   You have such deep admiration for your own opinions that you actually now believe your own essays are evidence.   Don't you want to convince anyone who prefers evidence - or do you only care about those who are persuaded by opinions?

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

primary documents and evidence, and somehow I did not

You have never posted a primary source that I have ever seen.   You cite essays you wrote or the essays of other conspiracy theorists.   The essays you wrote cite other conspiracy theorists, not primary sources.  I presume you accept an essay from Gerald Ford or Gerald Posner as entirely credible?

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

When I referred him to a page in Jim Douglass's book about the Paines, he said that this was not primary evidence

Jim Douglass's book is a secondary source.  Ruth Paine's testimony is a primary source - and it is readily available.  Why not post it?

Douglass and you and all CTers cherry pick evidence to make a point - which is why the primary source is required.  We don't need your editing or Douglass's editing.

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

 Because everything that John refers to in those essays is illustrated with primary documents he got from the National Archive

Bring us the evidence.  Why don't you post the documents from the National Archives?

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can we really think Ward does not understand that?

Your reason for being here is to talk about me?  attack those who don't agree with you? or does it have anything to do with the Kennedy assassination?

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

My point nine, is a reference to the WC appendixes.

One out of the 23 citations in your essay is entirely first rate and academic quality.  22 out of 23 cites are to secondary sources and the opinions of others.  

The only place in your essay that is entirely convincing is in fact the only place where you cite the WC instead of another conspiracy theorist: yes indeed a FBI document says that Todd's initials are on the bullet, which is the extent of the primary sources you offer.

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

ary Aguilar's visit with Bardwell Odum is backed up by FBI documents he got from NARA

Then show us the FBI documents, not your conclusions.

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

t.  Its very easy to do.

 

Posting evidence is easy to do.   Sending us to an essay you wrote citing other conspiracy theorists is even easier of course....

 

 

Jason

Edited May 5, 2018 by Jason Ward

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Why does he [Dale Myers] deserve equal time?  He's a fiction writer for operation mockingbird.  I thought we were looking for the Truth on this site.

That's a cheap shot, Ron. If there are any "fiction" writers on the subject of the events of 11/22/63, it's most certainly not Dale K. Myers.

Here are the things I'd label as "fiction" (and some of these things are downright fantasy)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81.html#The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes

Edited May 5, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Jason Ward]

46 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

I invite anyone to read the short essay and check the sources.  

I invite you to post evidence on this forum.

I invite you to stop citing essays you wrote and stop asking us to visit your website.

Jason

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

And let me say it again, if you don't want to post your evidence, that is your problem, not mine.

 

Evidence?  You make me laugh.  Jim's been to New Orleans and questioned people involved back in 63 regarding the Garrison case - footwork.  His books and other work are replete with credible references.  They are respected enough he's been asked to speak at multiple conferences, on television,  and radio.  Ran Probe magazine, now Kennedy's and King online.  Goes back before his affiliation with Oliver Stone on JFK.

What have you done?  I gave up on reading your posts shortly after you started your long I love pt walker did it stuff because it was unsupported by evidence.    

Edited May 5, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Oh no, now we get the "break up" technique from  Ward.

To intercept the point of the post, he breaks it up into shredded wheat style cereal bits.

I would not want to take it head on either.  Because the point is completely valid.  If somehow you think the Douglass book is not worth reading then fine, that is your decision.  Most of the people here, in fact, I would say almost all of the people here--except Trejo and DVP--disagree with you.  And yet, you find nothing exceptional about that.  But everyone else would  just flip to the page in the book, which I named. (It was page 171)  And if you think that i mentioned something I could not back up then you do not know me very well. 

Why I should have to post Hunt's documents when anyone can just click to them--not to my site but Lancer--again, do you see anyone else making that complaint?  John's work has been out there for over a decade.  If it is new to you, then again, what does that say about you?

I especially take exception to you calling authors like Meagher and Thompson "conspiracy theorists".  Where on earth did you grab that one from? What they did was to demolish the WR, which is not just a theory but a fantasy. If you can show me one published essay in which Meagher ever expressed her theory as to what really happened, I would love to see it.  I will wait for you to do so.  

(Sound of crickets in the night.)

In his unpublished book, Last Second in Dallas, which I read the galleys of, Thompson still does not express any idea as to what really happened in Dallas.  Except that he does not at all buy what the WC said happened.  So where and by who are these people rendered "conspiracy theorists"?  And how is their work smeared like that.  IMO, this says more about you than it does about them.

Why is this important? Because in my essay, for example, I used Thompson's interview with O. P. Wright.  Which is not just footnoted, but its illustrated in SSD . Anyone can look at it in his book.  But its been used so many times, why should I have to illustrate it again?  Just for you?  Please. Same goes with Meagher.  Anyone who comes on this site, and has not read those two books is, in my view, an amateur. Or perhaps worse.  

So instead of asking me to type in stuff that is readily available, and is standard fare, why do you not put on hiatus your patty caking with Trejo and DVP and read this stuff?  Then not only would your comments be informative, but then we could finally decide about where you are coming from.

But anyone who will defend Dale Myers and his Single Bullet Fact BS, has gone a long way to defining himself already.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

Jason Ward said:

yes indeed a FBI document says that Todd's initials are on the bullet, which is the extent of the primary sources you offer.

Here's another primary source regarding Elmer Todd scratching his initials into Bullet CE399 that you'll very rarely see cited by any conspiracy theorist....

"At 8:50 p.m. [on 11/22/63], Mr. JAMES ROWLEY, Chief, United States Secret Service, gave to SA ELMER LEE TODD an envelope containing a bullet. This envelope and its contents were taken directly to the FBI Laboratory and delivered to SA ROBERT A. FRAZIER. The envelope was opened and initials of both SA TODD and FRAZIER were etched on the nose of the bullet for identification purposes." -- Elmer L. Todd (Via Commission Document No. 7; page 288)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=295

Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Elmer+Todd+CE399

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Ron.

 I have actually been to New Orleans three times on research trips.  And Dallas twice.

Many of those interviews I arranged in New Orleans were used by Bill Davy in his fine book, Let Justice Be Done.  He was with me on the second trip.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Ward has inspired DVP to new heights of utter absurdity.

See, if you read Hunt's essay, there are no Todd initials on CE 399.  And by the way, that fact has driven people like Davison and DVP to the outreaches of the netherworld.  Davison has said they are "oxidized" off.  DVP said he was going to NARA to show us Hunt was a fibber. (He always denies he said this. Since he never did.)

That lack of initials renders Hoover a xxxx.  Which is really a milder vice for him.  But as Boggs said before he died, Hoover lied his eyes out to the WC about just about everything.

But to be in denial about the JFK case, as these guys are, you not only have to whitewash the CIA, you have to do the same to Hoover.  Which is literally impossible today I think.

But with DVP, a sick ogre like Hoover, now becomes a crackerjack investigator in the JFK case.

Considering the way Hoover felt about the Kennedys, DVP should be in kindergarten telling fairy tales to kids waiting for the sand man. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

This evidence is almost impossible to impugn since it is made up of primary documents in the writing and typing of FBI and Secret Service agents. Plus the NARA photos.

Plus the fact that Hunt actually went to the Archives and arranged for Steve Tilley to give this stuff to him after extensive negotiations.

Hunt then brought magnifying glasses and a computer scanner to visually inspect the documents, the bullet, and the photos at very close range and under magnification. Does anyone truly believe that he could not locate Todd's initials under those circumstances?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, I do.

ALL of the markings that John Hunt found on Bullet CE399 from the NARA photos are very faint and quite difficult to see and discern (as illustrated by the NARA photo below). I can easily envision Todd's faint mark on that bullet being overlooked.



But the fact is that Elmer Todd HIMSELF saw his own initials on CE399. He saw them on the bullet.

Naturally, Jim DiEugenio believes that either Todd HIMSELF is a big fat L-word...or Jim believes that top FBI man J. Edgar Hoover is the l-i-a-r with respect to the verbiage we find in black-and-white in Commission Exhibit No. 2011.

I, myself, don't think either man lied concerning this issue. Todd's initials are there, somewhere, on Bullet CE399.

And, btw, for the fourth or fifth time I'll point out this fact:

In John Hunt's 2006 article [linked here], Hunt specifically tells us the method by which he attempted to determine whether or not Elmer Todd's initials are on CE399. Hunt said:

"The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399 bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos."



Now, via the above verbiage, it's pretty clear (to me anyway) that Hunt did not use the ACTUAL BULLET ITSELF to perform his "Checking For Todd's Initials" examination. Instead, Hunt utilized four PHOTOS from the National Archives to perform that task. (All those photos can be found in full-sized versions at Mary Ferrell's website, HERE.)

And I see that Jim DiEugenio still has this falsehood in print in Part 7 of his Vincent Bugliosi book review on the CTKA.net website:

"He [John Hunt] photographed the bullet in sequential rotation."
-- J. DiEugenio; 2008

But John Hunt didn't take those NARA pictures himself. They were taken years ago by the NARA staff.

And BTW, I don't believe for a second that J. Edgar Hoover lied when he said (via CE2011) that FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum went to Parkland and showed CE399 to both Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright.

When Odum was asked about the incident in 2001 or 2002 by Gary Aguilar and Josiah Thompson, Odum's memory had obviously faded to the point where he just simply could not recall showing the bullet to the two men.

But CE2011 exists, and it always will, as an official document connected to the assassination of a U.S. President. And within that document, on Page 412 of WC Volume 24, we find these words:

"On June 12, 1964, Darrell C . Tomlinson...was shown Exhibit C1 [CE399], a rifle slug, by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum, Federal Bureau of Investigation. Tomlinson stated it appears to be the same one he found on a hospital carriage at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, but he cannot positively identify the bullet as the one he found and showed to Mr. O.P. Wright."

And these words....

"On June 12, 1964, O. P. Wright...advised Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum that Exhibit C1 [CE399], a rifle slug, shown to him at the time of the interview, looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, which he gave to Richard Johnsen, Special Agent of the Secret Service. .... He advised he could not positively identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found as November 22, 1963."


AN ADDENDUM REGARDING ELMER TODD'S INITIALS
AND COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 399:

Many (or most) conspiracy theorists think that FBI agent Elmer L. Todd's initials are not on Bullet CE399.

But, surely the conspiracists don't think J. Edgar Hoover's post-assassination mindset was something akin to this (do they?):

[Simulated J. Edgar Hoover quote on:]

Well, yeah, sure, my FBI boys planted Bullet CE399 into the official record of the JFK murder investigation, and we got rid of a lot of other evidence in the case that didn't implicate our patsy named Lee Harvey Oswald, but even I (J. Edgar) have a line that I won't cross when it comes to carving a man's initials into that FAKE BULLET. That type of behavior is just going TOO far, and I won't be a party to it. A man's initials, after all, are sacred and should never be planted. Yes, I'll allow several of my FBI agents to tell the Warren Commission lie after rotten lie about CE399 and a bunch of other faked evidence connected to JFK's murder -- but even I have some principles. And putting some letters on a bullet that my agency PLANTED INTO THE OFFICIAL RECORD IN THE FIRST PLACE is just something that I won't do. God bless me.

[/Edgar Off.]

So, my question is: why didn't J. Edgar (or somebody on the "Let's Frame Oswald And Make Sure We Cross Every T So We Won't Get Caught Framing Him" conspiracy team) engrave Elmer Lee Todd's initials into CE399?

Plus, let me add this footnote to this CE399/Elmer Todd discussion:

Jim DiEugenio in the past has suggested that FBI Agent Todd DID, indeed, carve his initials into a bullet. But Jim insists it wasn't CE399. It was a different bullet (presumably the pointy-nosed missile that Jim thinks was really found by Darrell Tomlinson at Parkland Hospital). But then this "real" stretcher bullet, per DiEugenio, was deep-sixed by Hoover and his boys at the FBI.

But it seems to me as though Jim has got a bit of a timing problem with that particular conspiracy theory -- because Elmer Todd identified his own initials on a bullet (which was, in reality, of course, Commission Exhibit 399) on June 24, 1964, which was more than SEVEN MONTHS after the assassination. [Once again, see CE2011.]

Therefore, if we're to believe Jim D., apparently the FBI retained the "real" stretcher bullet for over half-a-year AFTER they had inserted CE399 into the official record to REPLACE the "real" stretcher bullet. They must have waited until sometime after June 24th to "deep-six" that bullet which has Elmer Todd's initials on it.

Did Hoover keep the "real" stretcher bullet in his office as a souvenir for over seven months before getting rid of it? That's just plain silly.

Or, to provide Jim with an alternative made-up-from-whole-cloth cover-up theory regarding this matter:

Does Jim DiEugenio think that the "June 24, 1964" date that appears in CE2011 is a lie too?


JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

So let me ask you, if Todd's marks were on the bullet, would John [Hunt] not have been able to see them and arrow them as easily as he did the others? Right?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No, not necessarily. Perhaps Todd's initials are fainter than the other FBI agents' marks.

What we DO know is this:

CE2011 verifies for all time that Elmer L. Todd SAW HIS OWN INITIALS on Commission Exhibit 399 (or "C1", which is what the FBI called the bullet in June 1964, via CE2011).

And just because Bardwell Odum said he would not have forgotten something from THIRTY-SEVEN YEARS EARLIER, doesn't mean diddly.

An older person who might be having memories problems (was he? I don't know) might think he would recall an incident from 37 years in the past...but it doesn't mean he really would recall it. Your propping up Odum's 2001 comment about how he would have absolutely remembered the incident is rather funny, IMO.

Another silly part of the CTers' beliefs re: Odum, Tomlinson, and Wright is this:

According to DiEugenio, pretty much everything we find in CE2011 concerning those three guys is a lie. Therefore, I'm wondering why Hoover and his scheming FBI boys didn't go WHOLE HOG and lie some more by saying that Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright COULD positively identify CE399?

Hoover only goes PART way with the lie. Why doesn't he make it CONCLUSIVE by saying in his CE2011 "lie" that the hospital employees made a positive identification of Bullet CE399/C1?

It seems to me you've got Hoover being a rotten l-i-a-r---but not ENOUGH of a l-i-a-r.

Lots more:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Elmer+Todd+CE399

Edited May 5, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

James DiEugenio said:

DVP said he was going to NARA...

Still telling that bald-faced lie, eh Jim?

I never once said I was going to travel to the National Archives to personally inspect CE399. DiEugenio just decided to make that story up from whole cloth. And no matter how many times I tell him it's a lie, he still keeps on repeating it. Pathetic.

Edited May 5, 2018 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Now DVP uses the technique that Bugliosi did.

He tries to overwhelm the reader with verbiage.  And he questions Hunt for doing something he never did, even after he said he would.

The bottom line is this: Todd's initials are not there.    DVP can howl into the night, he can demean Hunt as much as he wants to do.  He can use ersatz document after ersatz document to try and contravene that reality. 

It won't go away.

And neither will the fact that Frazier had the stretcher bullet before Todd gave it to him.

That in itself says that either there were four bullets or one was substituted. 

[James DiEugenio]

Ok, to give DVP the benefit of the doubt, since he once did me a favor.

Why does he not go to the Archives and show us how Hunt was wrong then?

I think the answer to that is clear.

[Ron Bulman]

26 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

That's a cheap shot, Ron. If there are any "fiction" writers on the subject of the events of 11/22/63, it's most certainly not Dale K. Myers.

Here are the things I'd label as "fiction" (and some of these things are downright fantasy)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81.html#The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes

Nah David, that's the truth.  Defending the Warren Omission is pretty asinine these days given the fact's, evidence that has emerged over the years.

The link you provide, which I've not bothered to click on, is the cheap shot.  Calling or implying someone is stupid is a cheap last resort childish playground response.