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Micah Mileto

Can somebody explain what the James Tague curbstone stuff means?

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  How early was the SBF created Pat?

 I thought it was either a matter of the timing in the Z film, or the Tague hit.  If I recall correctly, McKnight says its the former.

 

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On 5/5/2018 at 12:23 AM, James DiEugenio said:

  How early was the SBF created Pat?

 I thought it was either a matter of the timing in the Z film, or the Tague hit.  If I recall correctly, McKnight says its the former.

 

It was the timing in the Z-film. The single-bullet theory was conjured up by Specter and Redlich, etc over the months of March and April, and was "tested" on May 24. Tague read an article about the presumed conclusions arrived at from this re-enactment, and realized there was no accounting for his wound. He then contacted the Dallas-Times-Herald. An article on his wounding was published 6-5-64. He was then and only then called to testify, which he did on 7-23-64. This was, to be clear, months after Specter first submitted his chapter on the shooting, and explained the single-bullet theory to Warren. Specter and/or Redlich then re-wrote Specter's chapter to include references to Tague and Willis, etc--witnesses who'd testified long after Specter's conclusions had been certified by the commission.

 

I added a few paragraphs to chapter 3c at patspeer.com a few months back, which you may find of interest.

 

From chapter 3c at patspeer.com:

 

The year 2013 marked the 50th anniversary of the assassination. Two books on the Warren Commission--one by New York Times reporter Philip Shenon and one by Warren Commission attorney Howard Willens--were pushed upon the public. Although Shenon's book held out that Oswald may have been put in motion by some Cubans he met in Mexico, both were essentially Oswald-did-it books.

Still, the release of these books exposed some startling facts...that only added to what we'd already come to know...

As a compliment to Willens' book, he released a number of documents, some of which have been previously discussed. One document which we have not discussed, however, is a memo created by Willens, in which he reported the number of days worked by the key members of the commission's staff.

Here, then, is a re-listing of these key employees, along with the number of days they worked, according to Willens.

  • Area 1: Francis Adams (16 days, 5 hours) and Arlen Specter (145 days, 5 hours) were charged with establishing the "basic facts of the assassination." (162 days, 2 hours)
  • Area 2: Joseph Ball (91 days) and David Belin (125 days) are charged with establishing the "identity of the assassin." (216 days)
  • Area 3: Albert Jenner (203 days) and J. Wesley Liebeler (219 days, 4 hours) were charged with establishing "Oswald's background." (422 days, 4 hours)
  • Area 4: William Coleman (64 days) and W. David Slawson (211 days) were charged with investigating "possible conspiratorial relationships." They were thus tasked with investigating Oswald's actions in Russia and Mexico. (275 days)
  • Area 5: Leon Hubert (115 days, 5 hours) and Burt Griffin (225 days, 4 hours) were charged with investigating "Oswald's death," and establishing both whether Ruby knew Oswald, and if Ruby had help in killing Oswald. (341 days, 1 hour)
  • Area 6: Samuel Stern was charged with researching the history of Presidential protection, so that the commission could make appropriate recommendations. (149 days)
  • Norman Redlich (186 days) was charged with supervising the investigations of all these areas, and with the subsequent writing of their report. His assistant--the man directly overseeing much of the investigation--was Melvin Eisenberg (167 days). 
  • And, of course, the whole she-bang was overseen by J. Lee Rankin (308 days) and Howard Willens (an approximate of 250 days).

So, let's break this down. The Warren Commission's top staff (Rankin, Willens, Redlich, and Eisenberg) spent over 900 work-days supervising its investigation, co-ordinating its investigation with the commissioners, and editing and re-writing the commission's report. While, at the same time, the commission's investigators spent over 1,000 work-days investigating and writing about Oswald's life and death--separate from his role in the assassination. While, at the same time, the commission's investigators spent less than 400 work-days investigating what happened on the day of the shooting, and who pulled the trigger...

Well, this seems a bit backwards, correct? When one looks at the timing of these man-hours, this ratio seems even more out-of-whack. The investigation lasted, basically, 8 months, from late January to late September.  Adams, Specter, Ball, and Belin (the investigators for Areas 1 and 2) worked 378 days, 2 hours, between them. But only 73 days, 1 hour of this was in the last three months of the commission's investigation. Well, this suggests that the commission's investigation into what happened and who did it was essentially over by June, and not September. And that the rest was just putting lipstick on a pig. I mean, seriously, Burt Griffin worked 91 of the last 96 days trying to understand why and how mobster wannabe Jack Ruby came to kill the supposedly lone-nut Oswald, and David Slawson worked 83 of the last 96 days trying to understand what the supposedly lone-nut Oswald was doing in Mexico City, meeting with Cubans and Russians. And that's not even to mention that Albert Jenner and Wesley Liebeler worked 81 days and 90 days, respectively, of the last 96 days of the commission, while trying to understand why in the heck Oswald would kill a President he claimed to admire. 

All four of these men, individually, worked more days in the last three months of the commission's investigation than the four men who'd worked in areas 1 and 2, COMBINED.  

Well, this supports what seemed clear from the beginning of the commission's investigation--that the commission was ready to claim Oswald did it without doing much digging, but was concerned this wouldn't fly if they didn't offer the public a mountain of reasons to believe Oswald was nothing but a nut, who acted alone. 

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Posted (edited)

Is there any possibility - at all - that Tague was simply mistaken about the wound on his face? Maybe a bee stung him or he flinched and scratched himself from all of the commotion?

This is actually a serious question and not a xxxx stirring question. I ask because it just seems hard to believe that a guy so far down the line of fire would have had a piece of concrete fly up and hit him.

I don't care what other researchers say - I firmly and always believe that the shots do NOT start until right after Kennedy appears from behind the sign.  There is no evidence at all when you watch the Zapruder film (and yes "the film is fake" researchers, it IS a real film) that any shots were fired until he appears from the sign.

There was some kind of shooting starting down at that point where we see him reappear from the sign - what it is I have no idea. But it makes absolutely no sense at all to me that any shots were fired before because first, if the plotters put in all of this time and effort to set up the fake snipers nest and get their patsy into the building so he could be blamed, they would not have left anything to chance.  Therefore, they would NOT have started firing until right after he appears from the sign.

The plotters were not stupid.  There was NO SHOT at all from the fake snipers nest before the first shot is fired (when he appears from behind the sign). They had to know this so therefore, they would not have complicated the shooting sequence by firing into branches.

So regarding Tague, I've always felt a little bit "nah-nah" about this concrete flying up and hitting him in the cheek. If you look at a view from the window, it seems almost impossible for it to have happened.

Dealey-Plaza-Seen-From-The-TSBD.jpg

Edited by Michael Walton

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Posted (edited)

I am thinking that this guy was wounded and running desperately away from Tague's position. I am calling him "Wounded and Running Man". This speaks to a shooting position from the lower floors of the Dal-Tex building or thereabouts.z405.jpg

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I also think that WRM can be seen being tended-to by bystanders at the beginning of the Daniel film.

 

Edited by Michael Clark

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Tague is one more street over Mike.  Your running man can be seen in Bell on the middle grass section... Tague can be seen here in Dillard...

382034205_dillardoverpass.thumb.jpg.da3a43c64d2465ba40c2a8cab909991f.jpg2100256075_Overpass-Bellenhanced.thumb.jpg.592698dd74c950dd2a90f7bea36dfa33.jpg

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13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Tague is one more street over Mike.  Your running man can be seen in Bell on the middle grass section... Tague can be seen here in Dillard...

382034205_dillardoverpass.thumb.jpg.da3a43c64d2465ba40c2a8cab909991f.jpg2100256075_Overpass-Bellenhanced.thumb.jpg.592698dd74c950dd2a90f7bea36dfa33.jpg

Excellent, Thanks David.

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Posted (edited)

:cheers

The investigation knew of Tague in Dec....

And even mentions the curb and seen nick in it...

Must Have been lost in the shuffle

742545338_63-12-16WCD205-GemberlinginterviewofTagueamongotherstuff.thumb.png.fd9208cfd62db2615c5bce96686e4ae8.png

Edited by David Josephs

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 2:25 PM, Micah Mileto said:

Here is my understanding:

1. The James Tague curb fragment is photographed, a thin smear of lead and some millimeter-portion of cement missing.

 

2. James Tague goes to photograph the curb to show his family, only to find the lead smear gone.

 

3. The FBI re-examines the curb and no lead smear is found. Rainfall and street-sweeping vehicles are to blame for the lack of any mark in the same location.

"It should be noted that no nick or break in the concrete was observed, in the area checked, nor was there any mark similar to the one in the photographs taken by Underwood and Dillard observed in the area checked either by the Special Agents, by Mr. Underwood or Mr. Dillard. It should be noted that, since this mark was observed on November 23, 1963, there have been numerous rains, which could have possibly washed away any such mark and also that the area is cleaned by a street cleaning machine about once a week, which would also wash away any such mark"
 

http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Shaneyfelt_Ex_26.pdf

4. After James Tagues testimony, the FBI removes the portion of the curb for further examination. They somehow inexplicably find that there is a mark with some amount of lead, with no copper.

http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Shaneyfelt_Ex_27.pdf

5. The curbstone is given to the National Archives, and in 1983 the mark is re-examined and is found to have probably been filled in with cement paste.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/C Disk/Curbstone/Item 22.pdf

James Tague also re-examined the curb for himself and decided that there was a difference. Some basic difference can be seen in the before and after photos.

What happened exactly? Is this physical proof of a FBI coverup or something else?

 

 

What it means is simple...The WC wanted to say that there were 3 shots fired that killed the President and wounded Governor John Connally.  However, if one shot missed, then only two shots could account for all of the wounds.  And since one shot was the final head shot that killed JFK, that leaves one bullet left to account; for the wound in Kennedy's back, his throat, and all of Connally's wounds, winding-up in near pristine shape on a stretcher at Parkland, which the WC said was indeed the "Magic Bullet".  They didn't call it the Magic Bullet so that's why I put it in quotes.  

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On 5/6/2018 at 9:56 AM, David Josephs said:

:cheers

The investigation knew of Tague in Dec....

And even mentions the curb and seen nick in it...

Must Have been lost in the shuffle

742545338_63-12-16WCD205-GemberlinginterviewofTagueamongotherstuff.thumb.png.fd9208cfd62db2615c5bce96686e4ae8.png

Tague describes the shots he heard as "loud noises." In his WC testimony he described the first one he heard as not like a rifle shot but a "cannon-type" noise.

Would any of the shots in DP have sounded that loud to Tague where he was standing  unless they the ones he heard came from above and behind him (i.e., a south knoll shooter)?

 

 

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16 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Tague describes the shots he heard as "loud noises." In his WC testimony he described the first one he heard as not like a rifle shot but a "cannon-type" noise.

Would any of the shots in DP have sounded that loud to Tague where he was standing  unless they the ones he heard came from above and behind him (i.e., a south knoll shooter)?

 

 

Remember that Tague is near the east mouth of Commerce under the overpass... 

In this composite you can see him just to the right of the white car and left of the column separating Main from commerce...

Wouldn't that create a tunnel effect for the sound?  Bass waves would bounce around in that tunnel and sound louder than it really was....

A shot from either north or south knoll areas (esp south) "should" be exaggerated when surrounded bu walls and a ceiling...

Just a thought. 

1179673768_overpassandsouthknollcomposite.thumb.jpg.80cbd955a2c1ee64f80cf510326fc8d4.jpg

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This is a picture taken in February 2018 standing near (maybe 15' away from) the southern end of the overpass.  It's about where the leftmost red line in David's post above lines up.  You can see the concrete pad in the lower left where James Tague was standing.  It is also near where the trajectory of a shot hitting JFK in the right temple and blowing out the right rear of his head lines up, based on the curve of Elm and his head's position at the time.  If you look closely at the composite posted by David in his next to last post, I am standing immediately beside the southernmost decorative bridge fixture (above the pedestrian tunnel through the overpass).  Easy to stand there and easy to hide a rifle vertically, lower it, aim, shoot, then walk the few feet to the open parking lot off the southern knoll while everyone is looking at the motorcade.

STj70DX.jpg

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Nice Job Rick...  Here's your shot and one taken a while back.

From what I've seen and read, the getaway from the south knoll was much easier...  AND there was a sewer opening on that side like the one on the north knoll... but that's been cemented up...  wonder why?

:huh:    :cheers

1432823644_ViewfromSouthKnollthenandnow.jpg.37ab5ed666f3a801d338ed0f4da6913a.jpg

Edited by David Josephs

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10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Nice Job Rick...  Here's your shot and one taken a while back.

From what I've seen and read, the getaway from the south knoll was much easier...  AND there was a sewer opening on that side like the one on the north knoll... but that's been cemented up...  wonder why?

:huh:    :cheers

1432823644_ViewfromSouthKnollthenandnow.jpg.37ab5ed666f3a801d338ed0f4da6913a.jpg

Thanks, David - fascinating composite.  Access to the north knoll (as I recall from other threads) parking lot was controlled by the Sheriff's department, requiring keys to allow entry and egress.  The south knoll parking lot is open so yes I agree much easier for a getaway.  Yes, there were (and are) sewer openings at the far ends of the overpass bridge on both knolls, up near the top.  Next time I'm there I'll look these over.  

🍻😎

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