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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I never said that FRIENDS were related to Quakers... you did.

I was trying to get you to see that your limited exposure to the JFK evidence precludes you from coming to a broader conclusion than you do...  the FRIENDS incorporated in NYC was to help funnel money and students to the college...

Right... :up   (sarcasm)

that this trip had nothing to do with religion.  It had to do with spy-craft.  Sun Tzu - all war is deception

Oswald was not coerced into pretending to defect... after REALLY wanting to go to ASC to study philosophy...  that is a conclusion you are proposing based on extremely limited JFK exposure...

Just go see for yourself - and if you can answer the few questions posed, even better...

i.e.  Show me the proof Oswald knew he was accepted to the school...   :cheers

 

 

 

David, I guess you just like misquoting people, even when you put the quotation above your own misquotation. This is a waste of my time. Mervyn

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Where do you suppose that application came from?

Thanks as always for posting so much evidence, David.

As to this question you ask, hasn't Mervyn shown us (either here or on "the other" thread) that there were numerous advertisements and/or sources of publicity for ASC in various newspapers?   Don't you think Mervyn's newspaper.com hits have shown that the ASC is not so obscure?   Oswald's need to attend college overseas in order for the Marines to allow his post-discharge (but still Active Reserve) travel, so he finds an easy school soliciting young US students precisely like Oswald in their advertising.

 

Jason

Edited by Jason Ward

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Jason, an advertisement does not generate its own application....  the correspondance flows as such....

March 4 1959 application signed and sent to Rhode Island from S. CA

March 28 1959 the school send him a note explaining he sent the wrong form.... and send him the right one....

No changes to the 3/4/59 signed app are made... AND the application tonthe school is not a 2nd copy but a different app entirely.

The school contacts the address they have in March 1960 to inform Oswald when he should arrive.... he is supposed to have attended in April 1960, not Sept....  the Gorsky Oswald is out in March.... 1959.   Coincidence?

And my point remains... if Oswald could find it, why couldn't the French or Swiss police?  Finally, and really notnworth arguing is that he was part of a defector program... he was coached as to what to say, where to go, etc...   

The school has nothing to do with it... it was a cover... just as the religious relationship in this area is.. a cover.

or at least thats how its presenting itself....

 

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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Jason, an advertisement does not generate its own application....  the correspondance flows as such....

March 4 1959 application signed and sent to Rhode Island from S. CA

March 28 1959 the school send him a note explaining he sent the wrong form.... and send him the right one....

No changes to the 3/4/59 signed app are made... AND the application tonthe school is not a 2nd copy but a different app entirely.

The school contacts the address they have in March 1960 to inform Oswald when he should arrive.... he is supposed to have attended in April 1960, not Sept....  the Gorsky Oswald is out in March.... 1959.   Coincidence?

And my point remains... if Oswald could find it, why couldn't the French or Swiss police?  Finally, and really notnworth arguing is that he was part of a defector program... he was coached as to what to say, where to go, etc...   

The school has nothing to do with it... it was a cover... just as the religious relationship in this area is.. a cover.

or at least thats how its presenting itself....

 

David, I agree with most of what you stated, because it is fact based, On the other hand your conclusion about the school is a leap into the dark. You also failed to address his interest in attending a university in Finland. I have already told you why that institution is different, perhaps you can enlighten us in your own words why he wanted to go there.

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Just now, Mervyn Hagger said:

David, I agree with most of what you stated, because it is fact based, On the other hand your conclusion about the school is a leap into the dark. You also failed to address his interest in attending a university in Finland. I have already told you why that institution is different, perhaps you can enlighten us in your own words why he wanted to go there.

I failed no such thing sir....  School was the LAST thing on Oswald's mind... Sorry you don't see that.

Like telling us that Webster was more interested in the trade show than defection...  Or that any of the dozen defectors had other interests... Of course they needed to APPEAR as if they were doing other things.  

It Seems to me you know next to nothing about spying and want to keep the conversation in your area of expertise despite it having nothing to do with Religion...  Start a thread on Dulles' use of religious groups as cover around the world and maybe you can begin to see what we are talking about here.

Maybe explain how "traveling" to ASC in Sept 1959 makes any sense when the semester he specified on the app starts in April 1960... 

Jason wrote:  Can we just forget all that and look at him as an insecure 19 y.o. boy in 1959, just to see where that leads?

Sadly no, we know too much to demote our understanding to that level.  He was not some kid trying to get to school... The educational excuse may meet some criteria so it LOOKED ok, but our Ozzie was far from being a student at this point... Nor would it matter...  

Again, these events are not isolated test tube examples but an interwoven tapestry of deceit and spy craft which the US intelligence community had been practicing since the 30s.  

You both may approach and discuss this any way you choose... Making this about the pawn, the patsy, the expendable asset just shows how narrow your focus is to the detriment of your vision.  Your ability to see a bigger and bigger picture in which these events live and breath.  

I thank Jason for his compliments about how I present my thoughts.  If we don't remember that the Evidence tells the story of the conspiracy, NOT the story of the assassination we are doomed to make assumptions like this one about ASC, Univ in Finland and the reasons behind his being sent on his trip 6 months too early... His passport app said 4 months of travel... 6 months before classes began....

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14 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I failed no such thing sir....  School was the LAST thing on Oswald's mind... Sorry you don't see that.

Like telling us that Webster was more interested in the trade show than defection...  Or that any of the dozen defectors had other interests... Of course they needed to APPEAR as if they were doing other things.  

It Seems to me you know next to nothing about spying and want to keep the conversation in your area of expertise despite it having nothing to do with Religion...  Start a thread on Dulles' use of religious groups as cover around the world and maybe you can begin to see what we are talking about here.

Maybe explain how "traveling" to ASC in Sept 1959 makes any sense when the semester he specified on the app starts in April 1960... 

Jason wrote:  Can we just forget all that and look at him as an insecure 19 y.o. boy in 1959, just to see where that leads?

Sadly no, we know too much to demote our understanding to that level.  He was not some kid trying to get to school... The educational excuse may meet some criteria so it LOOKED ok, but our Ozzie was far from being a student at this point... Nor would it matter...  

Again, these events are not isolated test tube examples but an interwoven tapestry of deceit and spy craft which the US intelligence community had been practicing since the 30s.  

You both may approach and discuss this any way you choose... Making this about the pawn, the patsy, the expendable asset just shows how narrow your focus is to the detriment of your vision.  Your ability to see a bigger and bigger picture in which these events live and breath.  

I thank Jason for his compliments about how I present my thoughts.  If we don't remember that the Evidence tells the story of the conspiracy, NOT the story of the assassination we are doomed to make assumptions like this one about ASC, Univ in Finland and the reasons behind his being sent on his trip 6 months too early... His passport app said 4 months of travel... 6 months before classes began....

Okay David, just wanted to be sure that I understand your fixation. Thanks for the exhibits, they are of use. Mervyn

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Mervyn....

Your use of language is really quite offensive

40 minutes ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

I understand your fixation.

What is further puzzling remains your inability to answer a simple question or acknowledge the shallowness of your knowledge base here...

It's truly as if you've never heard of the creation of the OSS, FBI's SIS, ONI, MID, MIA, ACSI and on and on...

So it remains your contention that this pseudo radar operator (An aircraft MAINTENANCE man is not a radar operator Mervyn) after returning from Atsugi ( a CIA U-2 base) and a stint in the Philippines, decides to unilaterally apply for a spot at a liberal arts, and music college to study philosophy in March/April 1960... 6 months after he is discharged on a faked bereavement discharge...  he never went to help his mother... but to leave 6 months early for a school he never officially gets accepted to...

So since you are the NEWSPAPER AD specialist... please post the ad Oswald would have used to acquire the applications he sent to Rhode Island...  the ad that you keep posting has an address in NYC...   please show us an ad or ANYTHING with the good reverend's address in RI...   or at least show us when he contacted the address in this ad and had them send "details and info"

 

1046180171_AlbertSchweitzerCollegeNewspaperAd-TuitionandScholarships.jpg.46d55042c63df9054bf0a629711172e7.jpg    

 

 

This is now called EVIDENCE MH...  This is the statement of Mack Osborne... "Turned down" ?? 

 

436077648_MackOsbornesaysOswaldclaimstohavebeenturneddownatAlbertSchweitzer-smaller.thumb.jpg.0340eab63bb68033bb2c5b8074f70495.jpg

 

But you can show us the ASC letter of acceptance.... right Mervyn?   

On March 28, 1959 ASC replies... no acceptance, just sending the correct forms to RESUBMIT his application to both RI and ASC...

You're aware those things are never done... the original 3/4/59 dated application,  and the undated yet signed bottom portion of the ASC-received application...  Yet somehow between March 28 and June 19 Oswald is made aware of his acceptance....

Really?

img_1133_652_200.jpg

 

How does Oswald know he's been accepted by June 19?  Especially in light of Osborne's ELY INTERVIEW which states he was told by Ozzie that he wasn't "excepted" (sic)...

Yet.... He sent the $25 in June 1959...   Show us the acceptance letter from ASC MH....  and why, out of the blue, does he send $25 on June 19th?

img_1133_657_200.jpg

 

Assuming you find the acceptance letter - or anything which informs Oswald he's good to go.... This is followed by acknowledgement of receipt of the $25 and a package of info sent to Oswald on July 10th...  

img_1133_658_200.jpg

 

The next correspondence we have is MARCH 22, 1960 with ASC using Oswald's last address, that there will be a delay in the start of the semester...  He has of course been discharged and has gone on the voyage to ASC with a new passport from which this image comes...
 

It's Sept 4, 1959... the man KNOWS he applied to a school yet has no info at all that he's been accepted...  but can state with conviction on this app that he's going to college... and going to Finland...

 

1444948559_1959PassportapplicationmentionsASchweitzeryetonlya4monthtrip.jpg.6fe2a4eca03fb617ee1af2702376e317.jpg

 

Next we have this Sept 19 1959 letter from Oswald in New Orleans to his mother...  He "couldn't tell her about his plans" - meaning that ASC - a liberal arts and music school and Oswald studying philosophy isn't something she could grasp?   Or do you suppose he was talking about his impending defection?   

Hey Mervyn... the excited youth going off to study in Switzerland does not mention it at all in his final letter to his mother from the US...  Doesn't seem to have said anything about Albert Schweitzer College in the few days they have together....

Do you suppose he was going to get from Russia to Switzerland 6 months down the road to attend school?

 

img_1133_604_200.jpg

 

Oswald appears before SNYDER and writes out his renouncement  who in turn sends it to the USA...  As we reflect on this document we again are reminded of the timing related to ASC....   None of the things he's done - including anything he did in his England layover - had anything to do with ASC or attending...  (when and if you ever look into the reality/purpose of this statement, the results, and then what he was considered by the different agencies who passed judgment - you may see the spy craft a bit more clearly)

img_1135_122_200.jpg

 

Oswald gets a response...

 

img_1135_131_200.jpg

 

Next we have his letter to Robert... Nov 8, 1959....   and now we have an address for Oswald in Russia... 

Do we not find it a bit odd that there is no mention of the school he so vehemently wanted to attend?  No mention of Finland and another university?   

Gee - I wonder what happened?   :huh:

img_1133_838_200.jpg

 

 

We are then treated to Oswald's reply which mentions the receipt of a letter from Robert with a number of questions...

Have you ever seen any of the letters sent TO OSWALD IN RUSSIA?  This letter goes on for a while....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=839&tab=page  

img_1133_839_200.jpg

 

And is followed up by another letter in Dec basically explaining that Oswald will be cutting all ties with the past and not write any more letters....  we wont be seeing another letter from our little defector until January 1961

img_1133_849_200.jpg

 

Back to ASC... this March 22, 1960 letter is sent to the Marines address and ultimately winds up with Marge in Ft Worth...

This is the ONLY letter written in any direction in 1960.  And now, obvious to all, Oswald never intended to go to ASC, never intended to be a student traveling thru Europe...

As you look back thru these letters and notice the lack of discussion (something Oswald was never short of) about ASC and what might be found there...   In no time at all he is in Minsk and meeting Marina (who had already met Webster) and getting married...

There are those who will want to keep making this about a young man, religion and who knows what else... when the intelligence community was worried about his passport, his being impersonated or worse...

So MERVYN - you aware that Oswald had an established drop point to get info out of Russia as well as receive instruction?  That his debriefing by the CIA is a ghost....  but we know who did it, when and why.... we also know quite a bit about his intelligence services support around him....

So as you MERVYN, continue to insert foot in mouth on subjects well out of your reach... you might consider reading about OSWALD's life BEFORE hoof in mouth disease....  although if you finally do start reading about Oswald, maybe... just maybe you can come back - tail between your legs - and apologize for what you've done here...  that is if you're man enough to admit mistakes...

:up

1983918182_OswaldASCapplicationenvelopesmaller.thumb.jpg.4e015c8974ca749528d49a014b12a86f.jpg

 

img_1133_650_200.jpg

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Mervyn....

Your use of language is really quite offensive

What is further puzzling remains your inability to answer a simple question or acknowledge the shallowness of your knowledge base here...

It's truly as if you've never heard of the creation of the OSS, FBI's SIS, ONI, MID, MIA, ACSI and on and on...

So it remains your contention that this pseudo radar operator (An aircraft MAINTENANCE man is not a radar operator Mervyn) after returning from Atsugi ( a CIA U-2 base) and a stint in the Philippines, decides to unilaterally apply for a spot at a liberal arts, and music college to study philosophy in March/April 1960... 6 months after he is discharged on a faked bereavement discharge...  he never went to help his mother... but to leave 6 months early for a school he never officially gets accepted to...

So since you are the NEWSPAPER AD specialist... please post the ad Oswald would have used to acquire the applications he sent to Rhode Island...  the ad that you keep posting has an address in NYC...   please show us an ad or ANYTHING with the good reverend's address in RI...   or at least show us when he contacted the address in this ad and had them send "details and info"

 

1046180171_AlbertSchweitzerCollegeNewspaperAd-TuitionandScholarships.jpg.46d55042c63df9054bf0a629711172e7.jpg    

 

 

This is now called EVIDENCE MH...  This is the statement of Mack Osborne... "Turned down" ?? 

 

436077648_MackOsbornesaysOswaldclaimstohavebeenturneddownatAlbertSchweitzer-smaller.thumb.jpg.0340eab63bb68033bb2c5b8074f70495.jpg

 

But you can show us the ASC letter of acceptance.... right Mervyn?   

On March 28, 1959 ASC replies... no acceptance, just sending the correct forms to RESUBMIT his application to both RI and ASC...

You're aware those things are never done... the original 3/4/59 dated application,  and the undated yet signed bottom portion of the ASC-received application...  Yet somehow between March 28 and June 19 Oswald is made aware of his acceptance....

Really?

img_1133_652_200.jpg

 

How does Oswald know he's been accepted by June 19?  Especially in light of Osborne's ELY INTERVIEW which states he was told by Ozzie that he wasn't "excepted" (sic)...

Yet.... He sent the $25 in June 1959...   Show us the acceptance letter from ASC MH....  and why, out of the blue, does he send $25 on June 19th?

img_1133_657_200.jpg

 

Assuming you find the acceptance letter - or anything which informs Oswald he's good to go.... This is followed by acknowledgement of receipt of the $25 and a package of info sent to Oswald on July 10th...  

img_1133_658_200.jpg

 

The next correspondence we have is MARCH 22, 1960 with ASC using Oswald's last address, that there will be a delay in the start of the semester...  He has of course been discharged and has gone on the voyage to ASC with a new passport from which this image comes...
 

It's Sept 4, 1959... the man KNOWS he applied to a school yet has no info at all that he's been accepted...  but can state with conviction on this app that he's going to college... and going to Finland...

 

1444948559_1959PassportapplicationmentionsASchweitzeryetonlya4monthtrip.jpg.6fe2a4eca03fb617ee1af2702376e317.jpg

 

Next we have this Sept 19 1959 letter from Oswald in New Orleans to his mother...  He "couldn't tell her about his plans" - meaning that ASC - a liberal arts and music school and Oswald studying philosophy isn't something she could grasp?   Or do you suppose he was talking about his impending defection?   

Hey Mervyn... the excited youth going off to study in Switzerland does not mention it at all in his final letter to his mother from the US...  Doesn't seem to have said anything about Albert Schweitzer College in the few days they have together....

Do you suppose he was going to get from Russia to Switzerland 6 months down the road to attend school?

 

img_1133_604_200.jpg

 

Oswald appears before SNYDER and writes out his renouncement  who in turn sends it to the USA...  As we reflect on this document we again are reminded of the timing related to ASC....   None of the things he's done - including anything he did in his England layover - had anything to do with ASC or attending...  (when and if you ever look into the reality/purpose of this statement, the results, and then what he was considered by the different agencies who passed judgment - you may see the spy craft a bit more clearly)

img_1135_122_200.jpg

 

Oswald gets a response...

 

img_1135_131_200.jpg

 

Next we have his letter to Robert... Nov 8, 1959....   and now we have an address for Oswald in Russia... 

Do we not find it a bit odd that there is no mention of the school he so vehemently wanted to attend?  No mention of Finland and another university?   

Gee - I wonder what happened?   :huh:

img_1133_838_200.jpg

 

 

We are then treated to Oswald's reply which mentions the receipt of a letter from Robert with a number of questions...

Have you ever seen any of the letters sent TO OSWALD IN RUSSIA?  This letter goes on for a while....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=839&tab=page  

img_1133_839_200.jpg

 

And is followed up by another letter in Dec basically explaining that Oswald will be cutting all ties with the past and not write any more letters....  we wont be seeing another letter from our little defector until January 1961

img_1133_849_200.jpg

 

Back to ASC... this March 22, 1960 letter is sent to the Marines address and ultimately winds up with Marge in Ft Worth...

This is the ONLY letter written in any direction in 1960.  And now, obvious to all, Oswald never intended to go to ASC, never intended to be a student traveling thru Europe...

As you look back thru these letters and notice the lack of discussion (something Oswald was never short of) about ASC and what might be found there...   In no time at all he is in Minsk and meeting Marina (who had already met Webster) and getting married...

There are those who will want to keep making this about a young man, religion and who knows what else... when the intelligence community was worried about his passport, his being impersonated or worse...

So MERVYN - you aware that Oswald had an established drop point to get info out of Russia as well as receive instruction?  That his debriefing by the CIA is a ghost....  but we know who did it, when and why.... we also know quite a bit about his intelligence services support around him....

So as you MERVYN, continue to insert foot in mouth on subjects well out of your reach... you might consider reading about OSWALD's life BEFORE hoof in mouth disease....  although if you finally do start reading about Oswald, maybe... just maybe you can come back - tail between your legs - and apologize for what you've done here...  that is if you're man enough to admit mistakes...

:up

1983918182_OswaldASCapplicationenvelopesmaller.thumb.jpg.4e015c8974ca749528d49a014b12a86f.jpg

 

img_1133_650_200.jpg

 

 

 

David, thanks for the exhibits, they are of use. Mervyn

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As long as you remember to give credit, if used, where credit is due.

btw, you do not have to QUOTE the entire post to write a single line....  the waste of bandwidth is as crazy as the room it takes up on screen and on disc... 

My post is just above....   a little forum etiquette and consideration of others Mervyn... give it a try  :up 

 

 

 

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For Jason Ward....

Help me understand Jason...   He used "education", a traveling student to get out of his Reserve duty and leave the country early...

One of the first things attributed to him once in RUSSIA, was the time it had been on his mind and the anguish when told he'd have to leave right away...

How does the Albert Schweitzer School play into this story when after the boat trip with an ARMY LT COL,  we simply do not see Oswald giving it another thought?  Not saying another word about ASC or even the fact the semester wont start for another 6 months...  not mentioning the school in any of the letters we have in evidence.... along with Mack Osborne telling us that Oswald told him he was not accepted...

(I know it's unpopular... but Harvey and Lee may come into play here... the guy on the trip over MAY have been the man in the passport photo and not our little Lee.  Our Oswald could just as easily travel on military transport while LEE sets down some mysterious journey...  just a thought, yet as you apply the facts to the potential solution... things do fit)

Can you explain to me how the school and its religious affiliations have anything to do with what actually happens regarding the defection?

Thanks in advance for your consideration Jason...  as for MH - he's on my ignore list... only so much GIGO I can take.  

=====

 

"I have waited for 2 year to be accepted." 

Balding stout, black suit fairly.
good English, askes what do I want?, I say Soviee citizenship, he ask why
I give vauge answers about "Great Soviet Union" He tells me "USSR only
great in Literature wants me to go back home" I am stunned I reiterate,
he says he shall check and let me know weather my visa will be (extended
it exipiers today) Eve. 6 .00 Revive word from police official . I must leave
country tonight at. 8 .00 as visa expire . I am shocked!! My dreams!
I retire to my room. I have $100 . left. I have waited for 2 year to be
accepted.
My fondes (sic) dreams are shattered because of a petty official ; because
of bad planning I planned to much! 7 .00 P.M. I decide to end it

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Posted (edited)

That is really interesting David about him saying he had been turned down.  

Which would mean to me that he did not try very hard at all. That indicates the whole educational aspect of the release was more or less window dressing. As was the ten day non-investigation of the alleged hardship discharge, which should have taken 3-6 months. (Destiny Betrayed, Second edition, p. 136)

BTW, in case you are interested here is some info Evica dug up on Casparis:

The man who wrote Oswald's mother, Hans Casparis, is also an interesting character. He is one of the founders of the college, and in 1959-60 he was billed as the director. In his correspondence with Oswald, Casparis changed the opening date of the spring trimester three times. But Evica could find "no record in the available Albert Schweitzer College documents at Harvard Divinity School Library supporting this schedule modification." ( p. 37) Evica also found a student who said the pushed back start date never took place. And that Oswald's name never appeared on any student roster. (Ibid) Need I add that almost all the records for the Friends of Albert Schweitzer College at Harvard for the 1959-60 term are missing? (p. 289)

All these questions about Oswald, the college, and its sudden disappearance are accentuated by the questions about Hans Casparis. Casparis wrote that he had graduated from three universities and lectured at the University of Zurich. But when Evica contacted that university they said he had never lectured there. The universities he said he had graduated from were Zurich, Basel and the Univeristy of Chicago. But Evica discovered that he held no reported diplomas or degress from these three universities. (p. 78) So from Evica's research, here you had a man who billed himself as a professor of a college who did not receive a degree from any of the academic institutions he said he attended. And this was supposed to be one of the "founders" of Albert Schweitzer.

This makes me think even more that if LHO really wanted to go there, he would have.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

For Jason Ward....

Help me understand Jason... 

Hi David,

Your evidence positioned in your posts are appreciated.  Thanks again!

Thanks for asking my opinion.  I value your as well.  I think the basic answer to your question is that we're coming at this with two different objectives. 

I think you see and want Albert Schweitzer College as part of a grand narrative and insofar as the discussion on this thread goes, I'm only talking about a snapshot of time.  You want to see where it fits with everything else you know.  I only want to look at ASC in terms of Oswald in the moment.   

As with a lot of teenagers, LHO could have a very fanciful and impractical idea of himself in the world.   I see Oswald very pissed off that he is a lowly private and his situation in life is formed by poverty, father issues, and so forth.  He might have picked ASC with all the same directionless lack of commitment that many teenagers do in choosing their college or career or first months of freedom.  He may have had guidance.  Or suggestions.  Or even orders.  I don't know.

You see Oswald as a working intelligence agent with every detail carefully considered - fine.   For this thread, I see him as a 19 y.o. ne'er do well.   He hates the Marines, he wants to travel, he has delusions of grandeur, he considers himself an intellectual - Albert Schweitzer College fits.  It allows him to travel legally, in fact, some nominal college plan was required for Oswald to travel legally because of his Marines reserve commitment.

If Oswald is an intelligence asset as you argue, I see ASC and many other details as absurdly unnecessary.   There's no reason for ASC if his role is a chess piece in the Cold War.

Your interpretation may be right, I don't know, I'm not deciding one way or another.  I think that's another issue - you want a full CT or explanation from me and all I'm here to do is review evidence, open possibilities, discount possibilities, and in general absorb and discuss.   I'm less about taking a stance and more about exploring what is reasonably possible.  IMO it's reasonably possible LHO sought ASC mainly for the purpose of invoking the exception to the foreign travel restriction placed on reservists.

Historians can adopt several different lenses when looking at the same set of facts.   You can look at a moment, a year, a lifetime, or centuries.  Sometimes you can look at everything in terms of culture, economics, politics or even smaller lenses like gender, race, and the environment.  Sometimes you can ignore time altogether and see where that leads.   

You are trying to write the Big History of Oswald, unfolding in linear order.   I'm looking at the microcosm.   You're a macroeconomist, in this thread I'm a microeconomist. All the lenses are useful, even if not every lens is equally revealing.   

In this case, I choose the lens of Oswald in 1959 up to crossing into the USSR.   The benefit of using more focused lens is that it allows cleaner interpretation of the evidence without any impulse to fit the evidence with what comes later (or before).  The shortcoming of using a tight time frame is that it can miss important clues from what comes later (or before.)   No one lens is perfect.

Sorry if that seems a long answer to a short question!   I hope you'll continue to bring evidence forward for everyone to see.

Jason

 

Edited by Jason Ward

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8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi David,

Your evidence positioned in your posts are appreciated.  Thanks again!

Thanks for asking my opinion.  I value your as well.  I think the basic answer to your question is that we're coming at this with two different objectives. 

I think you see and want Albert Schweitzer College as part of a grand narrative and insofar as the discussion on this thread goes, I'm only talking about a snapshot of time.  You want to see where it fits with everything else you know.  I only want to look at ASC in terms of Oswald in the moment.   

As with a lot of teenagers, LHO could have a very fanciful and impractical idea of himself in the world.   I see Oswald very pissed off that he is a lowly private and his situation in life is formed by poverty, father issues, and so forth.  He might have picked ASC with all the same directionless lack of commitment that many teenagers do in choosing their college or career or first months of freedom.  He may have had guidance.  Or suggestions.  Or even orders.  I don't know.

You see Oswald as a working intelligence agent with every detail carefully considered - fine.   For this thread, I see him as a 19 y.o. ne'er do well.   He hates the Marines, he wants to travel, he has delusions of grandeur, he considers himself an intellectual - Albert Schweitzer College fits.  It allows him to travel legally, in fact, some nominal college plan was required for Oswald to travel legally because of his Marines reserve commitment.

If Oswald is an intelligence asset as you argue, I see ASC and many other details as absurdly unnecessary.   There's no reason for ASC if his role is a chess piece in the Cold War.

Your interpretation may be right, I don't know, I'm not deciding one way or another.  I think that's another issue - you want a full CT or explanation from me and all I'm here to do is review evidence, open possibilities, discount possibilities, and in general absorb and discuss.   I'm less about taking a stance and more about exploring what is reasonably possible.  IMO it's reasonably possible LHO sought ASC mainly for the purpose of invoking the exception to the foreign travel restriction placed on reservists.

Historians can adopt several different lenses when looking at the same set of facts.   You can look at a moment, a year, a lifetime, or centuries.  Sometimes you can look at everything in terms of culture, economics, politics or even smaller lenses like gender, race, and the environment.  Sometimes you can ignore time altogether and see where that leads.   

You are trying to write the Big History of Oswald, unfolding in linear order.   I'm looking at the microcosm.   You're a macroeconomist, in this thread I'm a microeconomist. All the lenses are useful, even if not every lens is equally revealing.   

In this case, I choose the lens of Oswald in 1959 up to crossing into the USSR.   The benefit of using more focused lens is that it allows cleaner interpretation of the evidence without any impulse to fit the evidence with what comes later (or before).  The shortcoming of using a tight time frame is that it can miss important clues from what comes later (or before.)   No one lens is perfect.

Sorry if that seems a long answer to a short question!   I hope you'll continue to bring evidence forward for everyone to see.

Jason

 

Hi Jason.

That is an interesting analytical review.

I have also been delving into the University of Turku, which is also a rather complicated institutional set-up. In fact, in many ways it is as strange as Albert Schweitzer College. There are many, many news items and references to both institutions that were published over a considerable period of time in a host of newspapers.

However, it is thanks to the creation of the www and the Internet, along with the individual primarily responsible for rescuing old newspapers and digitalizing them in the USA that we now have the benefit of hindsight, something that was not available before. There are three main English language repositories that I am aware of, and that I am using. One is in Australia; another is attached to the British Archives, and the best one by far that also has many 'quality' British newspapers as well as many U.S. newspapers (but sans NY Times), is in the USA. 'The Times' newspaper in London has its own archives which I also use from time to time.

Unfortunately most of these archives are subscription based, like Mary Farrell (which has limited free general access), and therefore it is an expensive proposition to acquire books and memberships, while setting aside the time it takes to review all of this material. Consequently a lot of information that has been previously published by contemporary authors often results in either 'borrowed' citations (without original research), or hypothetical guesswork which legwork may reveal to be untrue. (In my own wider investigative study I found that a U. of Chicago PhD had published a book which I was able to debunk by taking a walk down a street in London where I discovered that what he claimed as a geographical and historical fact upon which he built his story, was not true.)

Therefore by focussing upon the microcosm of time between LHO leaving U.K. Immigration at Southampton, and his U.S. Passport being stamped with the Heathrow imprimatur, many questions arise. I agree with you that listing an overseas educational institution was a convenient way of getting out of the U.S. Marines. But that in itself raises the question of why did he want to leave?

Then there is the consistent reference to not only Albert Schweitzer College, but the University of Turku as well. The explanation given by LHO for his travels abroad is also consistent - until he departs U.K. Immigration. That is where the story falls off the cliff.

The U.S. Passport belonging to LHO was stamped with the Heathrow exit logo, but unlike his entry to Southampton, there is no conversation that is recorded, in fact, there is nothing to prove that LHO presented his U.S. Passport for stamping at Heathrow. Furthermore, there is nothing to prove that the crude stamp itself is a genuine Heathrow stamp.

Lee Harvey Oswald just disappears from the record after leaving Southampton.

As I stated earlier, not only is Albert Schweitzer a strange institution (although very well known - which raises questions why officialdom claimed that they could not locate it); but so is the University of Turku. That institution is located at a geographical spot in Finland which is referred to as Abo in Swedish, and there is a University of Abo which focuses upon Swedish studies. There are also many links between Sweden and that geographical location in Finland. For many years after WWII, the USSR retained control of a part of Finland across the water from one of its major shipyard and submarine repair bases that had access to the Baltic Sea. The strategic importance of the coastlines bordering the Baltic Sea were tremendously significant during the Cold War years.

All of that brings me back to a U.S. Marine in California who wanted to attend two esoteric academic institutions within a four month period. For this reason alone (there are others), his well known travel through the exit doors of U.K. Immigration at Southampton, England into a void in his chronological movements, must be addressed before moving on to another issue.

Because if the person doing the travelling through those exit doors was LHO, and it certainly seems that it was, then who turned up in Helsinki with his name, and how did that person get there, and why create such a mystery about it?

Then there is the question of why did LHO list those two institutions?

Mervyn

 

 

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19 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

If Oswald is an intelligence asset as you argue, I see ASC and many other details as absurdly unnecessary.   There's no reason for ASC if his role is a chess piece in the Cold War

Jason,

And here we meet the impasse...  You seem to completely disregard what it means to be involved in SPY-CRAFT....  ASC is a cover story... a back story from which information is provided should there every be a look into Oswald's Bona fides.....  

"Says on the application he was a student, he applied for and was "accepted"(maybe), he has correspondence from... and since a student can get out of the Reserves earlier - he MUST have actually been a student...  :huh:    You see Jason, there is no Cause-and-Effect there....  I mean there is MICRO and then there's microscopic...  You simply cannot disregard the man's entire life and the situational evidence of a defector program to make a point about his interest in ASC...

Let me show you by example...

To give you some idea of how unimportant "education" was to Oswald...  from the time he was in Jr High he has shown disdain and contempt for organized schooling...

The CARRO reports talk about his not saluting the flag and basically causing disruption throughout the day...  and this is AFTER a 2.5 week stint at YOUTH HOUSE....

image.png.83116a09bd9f85d1829695f686aa2a95.png

 

During the time in the Marines it is said he READ A LOT....  but did not attend any classes or go for any extra instruction...

Fast forward to the Oswald Project and the end of April 1963....

Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it." 
I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything."

If you are going to stay on this tack...  can you at least show us there is some reason to believe that this man given his history and the climate at the time... was actually interested in ASC...  

Thanks

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3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

are going to stay on this tack...  can you at least show us there is some reason to believe that this man given his history and the climate at the time... was actually interested in ASC

Hi David, thanks for the polite conversation.   Let's be clear: I'm not arguing against your opinion.  I'm only giving consideration to other explanations.   

It is IMO enough for a man in Oswald's situation to seek ASC admission merely as a way to legally travel.   His interest or lack of interest in education is possibly not relevant.   Having some even nominal educational plan in Europe is probably enough to count as an allowable exception to the rule against reservists leaving the country.   

I've seen this enrolling-in-college tactic used in many other examples where the military, the draft, the penal system, or the government in general is concerned.  Authorities in all contexts are more lenient if they see you making an effort at education.   Tens of thousands got out of the draft this way, so it's reasonable to me that LHO used the old college enrollment trick for his own purposes, such as travel.

Thanks again for posting so much evidence for us to consider.

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