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Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

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I'm deeply interested in this question. Who ordered the dog leg deviation so fatal for JFK? Confirmed it was Cabell? Any news from the latest docs?

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Posted (edited)

Paz:

In my opinion, the best answer to this is in Vince Palamara's book. From my cheesy web site, this is part of my review of Survivor's Guilt which addresses the issue. 

 

 

Chapter 4 is devoted to the setting of the motorcade route. This is a key point. Because as anyone who has been to the Dealey Plaza, triple underpass site will know, the two turns made by the motorcade into the plaza, onto Houston and then Elm, created an almost ideal situation for what military assassins call an L shaped ambush. That is a slow moving target, vulnerable to snipers from concealed places at three points surrounding the target. In addition, the location allowed for easy exits since there were parking lots adjoining at least two sniper locations: the Depository and the grassy knoll. Palamara does some good and interesting work in regard to the mystery of how this bizarre, indefensible route was chosen. He states that considering the fact that agent Gerald Behn, White House assistant Ken O'Donnell and Kennedy advance man Jerry Bruno were all opposed to the Trade Mart as the dinner destination, its seems odd that it was ultimately chosen. (pgs. 98-101) As late as November 14th, there was no dogleg on the motorcade route. The route came straight down Main Street. (ibid, p. 102)

The author makes the case that the two men who added the dogleg onto Houston and Elm Streets were Secret Service agents Forrest Sorrels and Winston Lawson. There were other routes possible, and the motorcade route was not automatically determined by the selection of the Trade Mart. (ibid, p. 103) Palamara later adds that the final route was not actually decided upon until November 20th. He feels that this change, which included the dogleg, was kept secret after being authorized in Washington by agent Floyd Boring. In a suppressed Commission document the author found, the assistant police chief, Charles Batchelor, revealed that the secrecy about this change in the route made it hard for the local authorities to furnish any help to the Secret Service. (p. 105) Another witness, Sgt. Sam Bellah told the author that the police did not know about the route change until the evening of November 21st. Bellah said the original plan did not have the motorcade pass in front of the Texas School Book Depository. Bellah said that his commander, Captain Lawrence, came to his home late on the evening of the 21st. He took him to the triple underpass to show Bellah the new route for the motorcycle advance escort, of which Bellah was a part. (ibid) Bellah said that there was never any explanation as to why the route was changed at the last moment.

Another local policeman, Captain Orville Jones told author Larry Sneed the same thing. That the motorcade route was changed just prior to the 22nd. Jones told the author that many people he knew in the Secret Service did not approve of going through Dealey Plaza at all. There were other routes discussed which avoided the triple underpass. (ibid)

Another witness to this strange alteration was motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale. Dale said that there was more than one route discussed and reviewed by the police. In fact, three had been bandied about. Dale said it was not until Kennedy's arrival at Love Field that morning that he was alerted to what the actual route was going to be. (ibid, p. 106)

Winston Lawson told the Warren Commission that the dogleg was necessary, "Because it is my understanding there isn't any entrance to the freeway on Main Street." (ibid, p. 108) But as the HSCA correctly noted, " ... the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple underpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp to the expressway. The motorcade could have proceeded westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the underpass and then proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart." (ibid) In fact, this is the route that Jones thought Kennedy would take that day. As the HSCA attorney in charge of the motorcade route inquiry wrote, "Any map of Dallas in 1963 shows that it was easy to reach the Trade Mart on streets that join Main on the West side of the overpass."

Compounding this shockingly poor choice of a route was the fact that Secret Service protocol was then broken while it was being navigated. Two years before Kennedy's murder, Mike Torina, Chief Inspector, stated that whenever a motorcade must slow down for a turn, the entire intersection must be checked in advance.(p. 109) That did not occur here.

James Rowley wrote to the Commission that he had no knowledge of who actually released the motorcade route to the press. This seems another deception by Rowley. Palamara says it was Betty Forsling Harris a Dallas socialite on the local committee, who did so. She was working closely with representatives of John Connally, the Secret Service, and LBJ aide Bill Moyers. Palamara concludes that this false information was given out for purposes of plausible deniability. That is, the Secret Service could later say that the route was purposely advertised in more than one configuration to show that there was more than one option in hand. When, in reality, the Secret Service knew between November 18th and 20th what the actual route was, including the dogleg.

This is a quite disturbing issue. In and of itself it seems simply bizarre that Lawson and Sorrels would choose this incredibly dangerous route. But then to not protect the president as he was going through this dangerous path is even more bizarre.

Once this route was chosen, then the only way it could be made secure was by the Secret Service being supplemented by local law enforcement agents i.e. the police, the sheriff's office, military intelligence. Again, none of this happened. According to the author, Sheriff Decker told his men not to participate in any security operations. Palamara then writes that the local Dallas police force was called off the night before by the Secret Service. (p. 118) Captain Will Fritz was supposed to commander a detail riding behind the Vice-President with rapid-fire machine guns. According to two sources, this was changed the night before. Instead, this detail was sent to the Trade Mart to protect the speaker's stand.

Palamara now brings in witnesses like former Eisenhower press secretary Jim Haggerty, and former agent Darwin Horn who state that supplementing the Secret Service with local police was a common practice. He then quotes Winston Lawson as denying this before the Warren Commission under oath. His specific words were, "This was not usual procedure." (ibid)

Palamara now makes a penultimate point about the arrangement of the motorcade. Military aide Godfrey McHugh almost always rode in the president's car on these occasions. Yet, in Dallas, another anomaly took place. In Dallas, he was asked by the Secret Service "for the first time" to "ride in the back, instead, as normally I would do, between the driver and the Secret Service agent in charge of the trip." (p. 119) The reason given was this would allow the president fuller exposure to the crowd. As Air Force aide, one of McHugh's duties was to supervise Air Force One.

Finally, the author notes that Batchelor told the Commission that he did not think any local authorities were in place below Houston Street. He then quotes William Manchester as writing, "Possibly [Police Chief] Curry's department met its responsibilities by deciding to end supervision of Friday's crowd at Houston and Main, a block short of the ambush ... " Manchester then added, perhaps for ironic effect, "The weakest link in downtown Dallas was Dealey Plaza." (p. 120)

As Palamara points out with detailed accuracy, everything about this route, from its unnecessary choice, to the lack of supporting personnel, to the violation of protocol, to the secrecy about which route was actually to be used, to the almost incredible lack of protection at its most exposed point, cried out for a thorough investigation. To put it mildly, that did not happen.

 

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)

The rest of the review is here:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/palamara-vincent-m-survivor-s-guilt

What Vince does here is he shows with multi sources that, as Jim Garrison first stated, the route was altered.  People like the shill McAdams, who have said it was not, just did not do any research on the subject. Of course, if he had and discovered this, he would have hushed it up anyway.

Anybody who has ever been to Dealey Plaza, and stood atop the trestle and looked down at the motorcade path, I mean you just shake your head in disgust.  I have said it before and I will say it now: it was like the hit team designed the route.  What more could you have asked for? The fact that the WC never called anyone on the carpet for this route or pointed out all the problems it posed for protection, that says all you need to know about them.

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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I woudn't forget the role of Jack Puterbaugh.

http://www.startribune.com/obituary-jack-puterbaugh-dfl-stalwart-and-advance-man-for-jfk-s-final-trip/297901471/

In 1961, Jack Puterbaugh joined Freeman in Washington. The former Minnesota governor had been appointed secretary of agriculture by the new president.

In October 1963, Puterbaugh advanced Kennedy’s trip to Duluth, where the president was the main speaker at a conference sponsored by the USDA. (U.S. Department of Agriculture)

The next month, he was sent to Texas to help find the best place for the Nov. 22 luncheon — the Trade Mart or a building on the State Fairgrounds. Along with a Secret Service agent, Puterbaugh drove both routes from Love Field, where Air Force One was going to land.... On that fateful Friday, Puterbaugh was in the pilot car — a Dallas police car — five or six blocks ahead of the presidential limousine."

 

Steve Thomas

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As late as November 14th, there was no dogleg on the motorcade route.

But since Kenneth O'Donnell didn't officially decide to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart until that exact day you just mentioned---November 14th [see WCR, p.31]---then of course there was no dogleg as of that date. There was no definitive motorcade route at all as of November 14th. The final motorcade route wasn't announced until "the afternoon of November 18th" [WCR; p.32].

 

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Palamara later adds that the final route was not actually decided upon until November 20th.

That's ridiculous, and Vince Palamara has to know it. The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363].

Who does Palamara think he's kidding?

Some conspiracy myths just refuse to die, don't they? And "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" junk is apparently one such myth that I guess will be with us until the end of time.

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/Was JFK's Motorcade Route Changed At The Last Minute?

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

Davey:

Let us turn the tables on you.

Were all his witnesses lying who said they were introduced to the route about 24 hours before the motorcade?

This would be Batchelor, Bellah, Jones and Dale. Hmm.

Now, as anyone with any knowledge of the case knows, there was a battle royal over this. On the one hand you had Bruno and the Washington contingent who did not want it at the Trade Mart, while you had Connally, the Secret Service and Harris who pushed for it.  And in fact, that battle went on for weeks and different notices were posted.

Any why ignore this during your tantrum: " As the HSCA attorney in charge of the motorcade route inquiry wrote, "Any map of Dallas in 1963 shows that it was easy to reach the Trade Mart on streets that join Main on the West side of the overpass."

That explains why even if the Connally people had won out, that weird route was not necessary.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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8 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Davey:

Let us turn the tables on you.

Were all his witnesses lying who said they were introduced to the route about 24 hours before the motorcade?

I have no idea why anyone would say they were "introduced to the route" only 24 hours prior to the motorcade----because that is kind of crazy given the PROVABLE FACT that the Houston-to-Elm turn was announced IN THE PAPERS on November 19. So the press and the public knew it on Nov. 19---we KNOW that for a fact (unless you want to now claim that the DMN and Times Herald papers that appear in the WC volumes are phony and fake newspapers).

 

8 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

This would be Batchelor, Bellah, Jones and Dale. Hmm.

As far as Chief Batchelor specifically is concerned, we know (via Page 32 of the Warren Report) that he, HIMSELF, was riding along with SS Agents Sorrels and Lawson on the dry run of the motorcade route that was done on November 18. So Batchelor was certainly aware of the "dogleg" route as of that date. Why he would claim otherwise can only elicit a shrug from this writer.

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Posted (edited)

What you quoted from the WC was a letter by Rowley.  Hmm.  

This is the guy who tried to hide the 11/22/63 press conference with Perry from the WC.  He also tried to conceal the drunken escapades of the Secret Service the night before until 4 AM. Lawson is also used.  But if you read Palamara, he was in on the last minute decision.

And why you keep on saying that the route was solidified on November 19th because it was in the papers, that does not at all justify itself as an argument.

If it did then the route pictured on 11/22 on the front page of the Dallas Morning News would not have appeared: it does not show the doglegs Davey Boy. (Destiny Betrayed, first edition, p. 57)

Now, much more revealing that anything you have offered is a summary of the DMN coverage I did for that book. On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs.  On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated.  And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein.

Your continuing tendency to cherry pick evidence, as you already did with Marina, is really a disturbing quality of your postings here.  And no matter how many times you get called out on it, that grievous tendency of yours is never eradicated.  

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)

Paz,

What DiEugenio is saying is expressed in this photo.  It is a bit messy.  But, it gives one a good understanding on why that particular motorcade route was chosen. 

 

 

It is totally insane to think a narrow killing zone in front of the Grassy Knoll is optimal.  I have tried to explain this in the following:

http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2017/09/06/the-best-place-to-shoot-to-in-dealey-plaza/

Edited by John Butler

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And why you keep on saying that the route was solidified on November 19th because it was in the papers, that does not at all justify itself as an argument.

If it did then the route pictured on 11/22 on the front page of the Dallas Morning News would not have appeared: it does not show the doglegs Davey Boy. (Destiny Betrayed, first edition, p. 57)

Now, much more revealing [than] anything you have offered is a summary of the DMN coverage I did for that book. On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs.  On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated.  And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein.

Jim,

You're just flat-out wrong about the "dogleg" turns onto Houston Street and Elm Street being "eliminated" on Wednesday, November 20, 1963. No such "elimination" of those two turns occurred at all. And I don't see how even you, a dedicated conspiracy theorist, can believe such a thing either---because in order for you to actually believe that those two turns were "eliminated" on Nov. 20th, you'd have to actually believe the motorcade route was changed twice after the Dallas Morning News published its "Houston to Elm" version of the motorcade route on Tuesday morning, November 19th. You'd have to believe the route was then changed on November 20th (with this change taking the cars straight down Main Street), and then you'd have to believe the route was changed back again to the same "Houston to Elm" version of the route that was previously reported in both Dallas papers on November 19th. That's kind of crazy if you ask me.

The logical answer as to why the map of the parade route that appeared in this 11/22/63 edition of the Dallas Morning News didn't show the "dogleg" turns onto Houston and Elm Streets is because the map that was printed was fairly small in size, and it would have been a tight squeeze to fit the two short dogleg turns into a map of that size. (Although I suppose CTers can still argue that the two doglegs could still have been squeezed into that map, seeing as how the creators of this particular map did find room for all of the other turns along the motorcade route, e.g., Turtle Creek, Cedar Springs, Harwood, etc.)

But, again, with the Elm Street turn being published in the papers on 11/19/63, I cannot see where the conspiracy believers can go with their argument that the motorcade route was changed around at the "last minute". As I said, the CTers would have to believe the route was changed TWICE after the Nov. 19 papers were published, with the second of these changes exactly mirroring the route that was made public on the 19th. And that's just wacky.

Plus, let me also point out that members of the radio and television media were fully aware of the "Houston to Elm" turn as of at least mid-morning on November 22nd, which is a fact that would certainly tend to undermine the theory that the small map published on the front page of the Dallas Morning News that same morning (November 22) reflected an "elimination" of the Houston-to-Elm turn.

As I discuss in Appendix 1 ("Additional Controversial Issues Surrounding The JFK Assassination") of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" (on pages 421 and 422), both Bob Walker of WFAA-TV and Joe Long of KLIF-Radio narrated extensive live TV and radio coverage from Love Field as JFK arrived in the city of Dallas on Air Force One on 11/22/63 [see the two videos below].

Go to 28:15 ---- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqILS0xWDZYeG9EWmc/view

Go to 4:04 ---- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOVTZ1MzBybFZvTVk/view

In each of those live broadcasts above, Walker and Long give a description of the motorcade route that the President will travel that day. In Walker's description, he says: "...it'll turn on Houston Street to Elm". In Long's KLIF report, he said: "The main route of travel will be west on Main to Houston, then through the Triple Underpass to Stemmons Freeway, and on to the Trade Mart." (And even though the words "Elm Street" were not spoken by Joe Long in that radio coverage, his description of the route implies the Houston-to-Elm turn, of course, because the only way to get "through the Triple Underpass" from "Houston" is by turning left on Elm from Houston.)

In addition....

There is also this map of the Dallas motorcade route that was published in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday evening, November 21, 1963, which clearly shows the Main to Houston and the Houston to Elm turns....

CLICK TO ENLARGE:

Dallas-Times-Herald-11-21-63.jpeg


So, in the final analysis (and after looking at all of the various motorcade descriptions and maps that were printed in the two Dallas newspapers starting on Saturday, November 16, 1963), it becomes fairly obvious what the answer to the "map" mystery is:

Some of the maps (as well as the Nov. 16 DMN text description) published in the Dallas papers just simply didn't include all of the streets that President Kennedy was going to travel on during his motorcade through downtown Dallas. Because if that's not the answer, then we'd have to believe that the actual motorcade route was being changed practically every day from November 16th to the 22nd, with the route bouncing around like a tennis ball.

 

Quote

Your continuing tendency to cherry pick evidence, as you already did with Marina, is really a disturbing quality of your postings here.  And no matter how many times you get called out on it, that grievous tendency of yours is never eradicated.

Well, Jim, seeing as how I just destroyed the entire argument you were trying to make when you said this a little while ago....

"On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs. On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated. And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein."

....I think it's a bit disingenuous on your part to claim that I am the one who is doing the "cherry picking" when it comes to this particular topic. With the introduction into the mix of the above motorcade map published in the 11/21/63 edition of the Dallas Times Herald, you are the one who is now going to have to "cherry pick" the various newspapers in order to keep your fantasy alive of the motorcade route ever being changed at all after the complete and finalized route was first printed in the Dallas papers on November 19th. Good luck playing your version of Motorcade Route Hopscotch what with that November 21st Times Herald map now staring you in the face too.*

* And I realize you probably weren't even aware that the 11/21/63 map even existed before today (and I don't think I had ever seen that map prior to finding it online today either), but now that you can see that the Elm Street turn was being fully revealed to the public the day before President Kennedy went to Dallas, I don't see how you can continue to believe that the small scale map seen in the DMN on Nov. 22 is some kind of proof that the "doglegs were eliminated" [your quote] on November 20th.

Can you continue to believe such a thing now, Jim?
 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

I don't think the route was altered.  It had to be pre approved weeks or months in advance to take it by the Texas School Book Depository in order for the Assassination to happen.  It was not accidental or a last few days decision.

Part of my thoughts are based on the dynamics of Dealy Plaza, which I've driven many times in the course of my work years ago for a living as well as out of curiosity in relation to trips regarding the assassination itself.   It is difficult to understand just looking at a map, even google maps. 

There Is NO (reasonable) Alternative Route from Main and Houston to the Dallas Trade Mart for JFK's speech.

If they continued straight down Main they have to jump the curb and plough through the grass in Dealy Plaza and over the other curb, in the Presidential Limo, onto Elm to get to the entrance off of it to Stemmons Freeway.   There is no entrance off Main onto Stemmons.  Or they could have continued South on Main into it's convergence with Commerce where they could have taken a right on Industrial (now Riverfront Boulevard on google maps) to Harry Hines and the Trade Mart, through, at the time, an area full of "winos, potholes and warehouses".  I.E. not many supporters and much slower.

Surely the Secret Service, and ultimately it's head, JFK's Secretary of the Treasury C Douglas Dillon would not have neglected security for the President through the dogleg turn from Main onto Houston then a 60 degree turn onto Elm.  Would they?     

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Posted (edited)

The final selection of the motorcade route was definitely a "last few days decision", Ron. Without doubt. The Trade Mart wasn't even selected as the luncheon locale until Nov. 14. That's "last few days", to be sure.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

I write about this crucial decision at length in INTO THE NIGHTMARE. The decision to choose the Trade Mart as the luncheon location was made in Eugene Locke's law office in Dallas on Nov. 14. Kenneth O'Donnell made the final decision, with the complicity of the Secret Service (Lawson and Sorrels) and Governor Connally and perhaps also Locke. Jack Puterbaugh was representing O'Donnell at that meeting in Dallas. Yes, they could have gone through Dealey Plaza to the Trade Mart while bypassing Elm Street and putting a wooden ramp from Main leading to the freeway entrance ramp, but the choice of the Trade Mart made the dogleg onto Elm Street appear all but inevitable. Eugene Locke isn't talked about much, but he was one of those "Mr. Everywhere" guys -- a crony of LBJ, an old friend of Henry Wade, and the chairman of the State Democratic Executive Committee in Texas. LBJ rewarded him with the Medal of Freedom, the ambassadorship to Pakistan, and the post of deputy ambassador to South Vietnam (at various times, Mary Ferrell worked in his law firm, as did, after Locke's death, George W. Bush's personal lawyer and failed Supreme Court nominee, Harriet Miers); Locke even served as Marie Tippit's attorney after the killing of her husband. 

One of the surprises of my research was finding that O'Donnell evidently was the inside man on the plot at the White House. He and the Secret Service also stole Kennedy's coffin from the hallway at Parkland Hospital at gunpoint to avoid having an autopsy done by Dr. Earl Rose in Dallas, as was legally required (I think the coffin may have been empty at that point, and from the plotters' point of view,  it would have been worth a gunfight to conceal that, which would have exposed the plot). O'Donnell lied to the Warren Commission about the direction of the shots; he later told Tip O'Neill that he heard two shots from behind the fence but "testified the way [the FBi] wanted me to. I just didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family . . . everybody wanted this thing behind them." What was O'Donnell's motive for his various acts of disloyalty? According to Seymour Hersh's DARK SIDE OF CAMELOT, O'Donnell had been disparaging the president and was going to be fired on Monday, Nov. 25, by JFK at the White House for corruption (skimming of campaign contributions by O'Donnelll and two others). This part of Hersh's book (which in some sections admittedly has serious problems) seems to be based on strong evidence from Kennedy presidential campaign and  Democratic National Committee operative Paul Corbin and journalist Charles Bartlett, a close friend of JFK's, who called O'Donnell "the bagman" for the corruption and said Corbin had signed statements he took to RFK and JFK. O'Donnell began a long slide into alcoholism after the assassination, and that led to his premature death in 1977. His daughter's book reports that he was always "haunted" by Dallas and blamed himself for choosing the motorcade route through Dealey Plaza: "His decision would haunt Kenny for the remainder of his life." O'Donnell would tell his wife, "I let him down. I failed. I let him down." As Mort Sahl put it, President Kennedy "had a strange group of friends. Remarkably absent when he fell."

Edited by Joseph McBride

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Thank you all for your help. We are on something BIG, about Dealey Plaza. That's why I'm asking

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