Who changed the motorcade route?

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Steve, thank you for capturing this frame.  I don't know how to do that.  

  # 2, in this picture looks like it is not a drainage pipe but a pipe sticking way up above what is purported to be a train, I.E. it would be knocked off at the first undepass the train came to.  In the clip the "thing" sticking up at the same point in it looks like a light pole in the distance on Stemmons Freeway. 

Ron,

 

I just held my cursor over the looping images, and when that photo popped up, I right clicked on it and said "copy this image", then I pulled up a photo software program (I used Paint), and did an "edit paste".

 

Thanks. What I originally mistook as a "drainage pipe" of some kind, I now see as sunlight reflecting off the side of a building.

I'm getting older now and my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be. That's why I don't do a lot of commentary about photos. I'm no good at it.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

Some of the people on the Overpass...

This is Bell in color with Dillard superimposed...

Holland is the man in the suit tie and hat in the middle of the image... as I understand it from his own words

 

 

[John Butler]

In Joseph's overlay of Bell and Dilliard the bottom part of Dilliard has been cut off or a least not included in the overlay.  By cutting off the bottom of the photo one gets a false perspective of where this photo was taken.

From where the photo was taken it is physically impossible to see the other side of the railroad bridge.  The railroad bridge is over 100 ft. wide.  From that position you can not see the guard rail on the other side.  This mistake is in Altgens 7, Dilliard, and Bell.  In Bell there is at least an excuse.  Bell shot from an elevated position on Houston St.  Altgens and Dilliard were down at street level where it is impossible to see the guard rail on the west side.

Once again there is a timing problem.  The people filmed by Dilliard may be as much 2 to 5 minutes after the assassination.  The motorcade was broken into groups by the crowd in front of the TSBD and the Houston and Elm intersection surged into the street after the assassination.  Another group from Main St. and from the southwest corner of Elm and Houston surged into the street crossing to the Grassy Knoll.

By the time the camera cars were approaching the underpass some time had passed.  How much is somewhat debatable.

Other than that, I don't see the point of Mr. Joseph's artwork.  Maybe he will explain what he is doing with the overlay?

[Ron Bulman]

25 minutes ago, John Butler said:

In Joseph's overlay of Bell and Dilliard the bottom part of Dilliard has been cut off or a least not included in the overlay.  By cutting off the bottom of the photo one gets a false perspective of where this photo was taken.

From where the photo was taken it is physically impossible to see the other side of the railroad bridge.  The railroad bridge is over 100 ft. wide.  From that position you can not see the guard rail on the other side.  This mistake is in Altgens 7, Dilliard, and Bell.  In Bell there is at least an excuse.  Bell shot from an elevated position on Houston St.  Altgens and Dilliard were down at street level where it is impossible to see the guard rail on the west side.

Once again there is a timing problem.  The people filmed by Dilliard may be as much 2 to 5 minutes after the assassination.  The motorcade was broken into groups by the crowd in front of the TSBD and the Houston and Elm intersection surged into the street after the assassination.  Another group from Main St. and from the southwest corner of Elm and Houston surged into the street crossing to the Grassy Knoll.

By the time the camera cars were approaching the underpass some time had passed.  How much is somewhat debatable.

Other than that, I don't see the point of Mr. Joseph's artwork.  Maybe he will explain what he is doing with the overlay?

Thank you again Chris Davidson.  Full screen.  You don't see the cars moving to the right in the top part of the screen?

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/19WTp-na4XCRB3qwxVdfg7dh9FGFNR1dq/view

The view, again, from Main and Houston (where you say Bell was filming from).  See Stemmons Freeway in the back ground over the railroad overpass?

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7787893,-96.8081694,3a,15.8y,259.48h,86.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd8r9-LvxuPPYXJgZWk1l3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

 

[John Butler]

Mark Bell filmed from the northwest corner of Houston and Main.  He was on an elevated position with about 3 other people.  They were standing on part of the monument structure.

You can see this in a Jay Skaggs photo taken from the northeast corner.  The photo also shows Phil and Rosemary Willis.

The google image is an aerial image converted to ground level.  It is not showing things correctly.  You can not take the Same image at ground level at that corner of Main and Houston.

[John Butler]

Ron and Steve,

I use software called Cyberlink Power DVD 16.  I got the idea from Robin Unger.  What Power DVD allows you to do is watch a video frame by frame.  Interesting frames I capture by using Screen Capture available in Windows.

I also use Corel Paintshop Pro to do any work such as magnification or sharpening.  There is a fade correction feature that really works well wth old films and photos.

I hope this is of some help.

[Chris Davidson]

PhotoCredit to my brother, Greg. (RIP)

Approx across the street from the Z pedestal:

[Chris Davidson]

 

[David Von Pein]

FYI / BTW....

I sure hope the current unavailability of the History Matters website isn't permanent. (I'll be forced to commit hari-kari if it is.)

Anybody here friends with Rex Bradford? ....

https://history-matters.com/archive/contents/contents_wc.htm

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Michael Clark]

I've had a couple invalid certificate errors lately on other sites myself. It might be the beginning of the end for net neutrality?

[David Von Pein]

6/26/2018 Update ---

After a three-day outage, HM is back online and working again. Yay!

(Looks like I didn't need to buy that sword after all. Whew.)

https://history-matters.com/archive/contents/wc/contents_wr.htm

Edited June 26, 2018 by David Von Pein

[John Butler]

David,

Thanks for the posting alert.  history-matters.com is a good source for tracking down witness statements.

Edited June 27, 2018 by John Butler

[David Von Pein]

REPRISE....

JOSEPH McBRIDE SAID:
No Dan Rather in the [McIntire] photo. I noticed that immediately when this was first printed by the Dallas Morning News in 1988 when I was in town for the twenty-fifth anniversary. A colleague has said Rather was at the Trade Mart. Rather has given various claims for his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, including his frequent claim he was on the other side of the overpass from the shooting area waiting for a film drop.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But that doesn't mean Rather wasn't there in the area nearby. Not every last square inch of the area is covered in the McIntire photo. Maybe Rather was standing just outside McIntire's camera range. For that matter, how do you know that the man on the far right of the picture isn't Dan Rather?

Edited August 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Lifton]

On 5/31/2018 at 8:54 AM, David Von Pein said:

I had no idea this was true. (And from the posts I'm seeing from various other EF Forum members, many people here didn't know about the "multiple editions" either.)

It seems almost impossible for me to believe that the SAME newspaper office could have the capacity and the manpower (not to mention the TIME, which is always so short, it seems, in the newspaper industry) to churn out up to FIVE separate and unique editions of the very same paper. That sounds incredible to me (but evidently true). And in the 1960s, we're talking a time when the typeface for each article in the paper had to be manually set up by hand. (Isn't that correct, David S. Lifton?) How on Earth did they have enough time and resources to pump out so many editions every single day of the year? I suppose it's much easier today, what with computerization and digitization and all.

Anyway, thanks for the "multiple editions" information, David L.; it's certainly something I didn't realize until now.

Just to clarify: as I recall, it was not the entire newspaper that was changed, but rather just the front page, plus those “back pages” that contained the continuation of any stories that appeared on the front page.  FWIW: I learned about the multiple editions from my careful perusal of numerous reels of 35 mm microfilm from the many newspapers that I ordered at UCLA—back around 1968 - 1970 —via “Interlibrary Loan.” These microfilms were created by an outfit in the midwest (“University Microfilms,” as I recall) that sold the films to libraries throughout the country and (I suppose) the world.

I started my search  with microfilm reels that happened to be available at the UCLA Research Library (the “URL”, in UCLA lingo); but then my search expanded, when I learned about the magic of “Interlibrary Loan.”  So then, at the UCLA Library, I began ordering microfilms from all around the country.  Specifically, I viewed every reporter on the Dallas press bus as a potentially important eyewitness, and wanted to examine each of their individually bylined stories; so I ordered as many of these microfilm reels as I could, and  I carried on this research for many months.  For example, I’d get a phone call from the librarian: “Mr. Lifton, two reels of microfilm have arrived from the Austin newspapers; please come in soon, because the loan period is just two weeks.” etc.    

This research turned up a number of facts I would never have otherwise known.  Perhaps the best example is my discovery of the identity of the  driver of the U.S. Navy ambulance (at Bethesda) after Jackie and RFK exited the ambulance that brought them from Andrews AFB to Bethesda, where they arrived at 6:58 PM (per SS reports):

The Washington Star reported that the naval ambulance simple stood there, essentially unattended.  Then, some high level naval officers stood near the front door of the ambulance, apparently conversing.  After about 12 minutes, the ambulance was driven off. The tri-service casket team, parked in a nearby vehicle, tried to follow, but the ambulance engaged in evasive maneuvers. The casket team tried to follow, but "lost" the ambulance.  For about an hour, the casket team could not locate the ambulance.  From the Washington Post, I learned the identity of the driver:  Admiral Calvin Galloway (who I interviewed by phone, circa 1967).  When I showed this specific evidence to UCLA Professor Liebeler, and challenged him with the question, “Can you tell me why an Admiral was driving an ambulance?", Liebeler, exhibiting his black sense of humor, responded, “Maybe the Navy was having a union problem!”  See Chapter 16 of Best Evidence.  (3/13/22- 7 AM PST; 3/16/22, 6 PM)

Edited March 17, 2022 by David Lifton
clarity

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/22/2018 at 10:31 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Thank you again Chris Davidson.  Full screen.  You don't see the cars moving to the right in the top part of the screen?

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/19WTp-na4XCRB3qwxVdfg7dh9FGFNR1dq/view

The view, again, from Main and Houston (where you say Bell was filming from).  See Stemmons Freeway in the back ground over the railroad overpass?

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7787893,-96.8081694,3a,15.8y,259.48h,86.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd8r9-LvxuPPYXJgZWk1l3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

 

Since David bumped this thread, surprised the images are still available.  There is a better one available of Stemmons freeway traffic in the background, longer, more detail.

The motorcade route was more never officially finalized than changed.  This was deliberate.  jmo  People from Dallas communicated with the Secret Service/CIA.  DPD, the Cabell's, the local mafia (e.g. maybe Ruby?), more.  Connally lobbied for the Trade Mart.  Without knowing he would be in the car with JFK.

People in Dallas realized that to get to the Trade Mart from Main required a right on Houston then a left on Elm to get to Stemmons Freeway.  Some in the CIA and a few in the Secret Service knew the route would take them by the Texas School book Depository.

  

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Ron Bulman