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Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

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Posted (edited)

When you add together the facts about Lawson and Sorrels and their promotion of false witnesses after the fact and Lawson reducing the number of cycles and moving them to the rear of the limo, plus the facts that there really was confusion about the route, and the papers were reporting the wrong route ON THE DAY OF THE MOTORCADE, I mean what more do you need to conclude that something is wrong with this picture?

Let me also add this:  IMO, the reason that Blaine came out with his book is simple.  

Between the works of Black, Bolden and Palamara, plus the SS defiance of the ARRB, the Secret Service had to get something out there to try and deflect the exposure of their unbelievably bad performance in Dallas. And also their cover up about it afterwards.  

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Jim, I may have missed it in some of your earlier postings, but do you consider the wrong route being published on the actual day of the motorcade to be indicative of trying to keep the crowds sparse?  If so, how was it that the crowd seemed to know that they could line up on Houston & Elm St. and see the president as opposed to crossing the street and going into the "infield/median" area which fronted Main St.

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"O'Donnell testified to the commission, there was a controversy between the Governor (Connally), and between some of the local Democratic figures, and between our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place for the President to give the address.  The Governor felt very strongly on it.  And we finally acquiesced to his views."  Pg. 541, Into the Nightmare.

Why was Connally lobbying for one location over another?  On behalf of his mentor LBJ, who some think may have had foreknowledge and a stake in the outcome of events?

"According to the HSCA, the principal advance man on the Texas trip, Jerry Bruno, made notes on November 6 indicating that O'Donnell held and exercised the power to make the final decision and accordingly gave orders to Bruno and Behn to implement the decision."  But the decision was not finally settled until November 14th..."  PGS 541-542.

So by November 6 some people had some confidence in the location and the route to it.  I.E. that any opposition to it could be overcome.  It's my belief that Oswald was given the job at the TSBD for a reason.  Like if JFK could be lured to Dallas and convinced to be in a parade there, the route could be made to go by the TSBD.

"On November 15 Bruno wrote, "...I met with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip to Texas.  They decided to let the Governor have his way." Pg. 542.

 

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Posted (edited)

Richard:

Because I think on the day of the assassination, the word was spread about the actual route that was going to be traveled.

And it was a simple matter to move over from Main to Elm.

As I wrote earlier, I think the confusion was that reporters were going to differing sources, reflecting the split in opinion as to where the culminating event would be.

 

The Dallas trip could not have been cancelled at that late date Ron.  The local newspapers had been talking about it since April of that year in intermittent stories.  Connally was bluffing.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Don Jeffries said:

The motorcade route doesn't get as much scrutiny as it should. Neocons in our community have attempted to diminish the significance of the change, and of the actual route eventually taken.

But there's no PROOF whatsoever that any "change" actually was made to the motorcade route at all. The "change" resides mainly in the wishful-thinking imaginations of conspiracy advocates.

One thing is a certainty --- the constant back-and-forth "changes" that Jim DiEugenio is talking about (re: the DMN reports of Nov. 16-22) are not "changes" in the actual motorcade route at all. And no reasonable person could possibly believe they do reflect "changes".

The "Only On Main Street" reports from the DMN are simply not as detailed regarding the streets JFK was going to travel on. And it's especially silly for Jim to prop up the very first of those DMN reports --- which is this 11/16/63 article --- which only says "Main Street". But that 11/16 report was printed at a time when Jim KNOWS that the final motorcade route had not yet been revealed to anybody. The police and Secret Service didn't finalize the route until two days later, on Nov. 18. So for Jim to say (as he did yesterday) --- "On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs" --- is just ridiculous, because the DMN could not have possibly even known, as of 11/16, about any possible "doglegs" the motorcade route would encounter on Houston or Elm Streets. And I don't think ANY other street names are mentioned AT ALL in that 11/16 DMN article. So why would Jim make an issue out of the two "dogleg" turns not being printed in that article, when it would appear that no other street names are mentioned at all, except "Main"?

As a side note regarding the "breaches of security" that conspiracy theorists are always contending were rampant in Dealey Plaza on November 22....

I'd be willing to bet that President Kennedy's open-top car was taken down many streets in many U.S. cities in which "hazards" very similar to the Houston-to-Elm hairpin turn were, in fact, negotiated by the driver of Kennedy's limousine. And I know there have been instances during motorcade parades when the President's car actually came to a complete stop in the midst of throngs of spectators. And we need to look no further than Dallas on November 22nd to verify this fact---because on two separate occasions during the Dallas parade, JFK ordered the car to stop so that Kennedy could greet well-wishers, which he did. But since JFK wasn't shot during those two unscheduled motorcade stops, nobody ever says a word about that "breach of security" on the part of the Secret Service.

And the day I find in my large JFK video collection the pre-11/22/63 clip of President Kennedy's heavy SS-100-X Lincoln limousine slowing down to a crawl to navigate a hairpin turn like the one his vehicle encountered at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets in Dallas, I'll be sure to post that video at this forum. But maybe somebody can beat me to it, because video or film footage of such a common occurrence during a Kennedy motorcade must surely be out there in a video vault somewhere.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

What a crock of Von Peinian baloney. Here we go again.  He gets exposed on his misrepresentations and so now he tries to make stuff up about what the reporters were thinking. As if he knows.

Then he says there was was no real change and it was only about some  "confusion".

Note the effort to discount VInce's book which started this whole thing.  Please note the witnesses below and what they say:

Palamara later adds that the final route was not actually decided upon until November 20th. He feels that this change, which included the dogleg, was kept secret after being authorized in Washington by agent Floyd Boring. In a suppressed Commission document the author found, the assistant police chief, Charles Batchelor, revealed that the secrecy about this change in the route made it hard for the local authorities to furnish any help to the Secret Service. (p. 105) Another witness, Sgt. Sam Bellah told the author that the police did not know about the route change until the evening of November 21st. Bellah said the original plan did not have the motorcade pass in front of the Texas School Book Depository. Bellah said that his commander, Captain Lawrence, came to his home late on the evening of the 21st. He took him to the triple underpass to show Bellah the new route for the motorcycle advance escort, of which Bellah was a part. (ibid) Bellah said that there was never any explanation as to why the route was changed at the last moment.

Another local policeman, Captain Orville Jones told author Larry Sneed the same thing. That the motorcade route was changed just prior to the 22nd. Jones told the author that many people he knew in the Secret Service did not approve of going through Dealey Plaza at all. There were other routes discussed which avoided the triple underpass. (ibid)

Another witness to this strange alteration was motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale. Dale said that there was more than one route discussed and reviewed by the police. In fact, three had been bandied about. Dale said it was not until Kennedy's arrival at Love Field that morning that he was alerted to what the actual route was going to be. (ibid, p. 106)

Also, note the change of tactics.  Now he says well, all those people must be lying.

Yeah Davey,  Only Rowley, Lawson, and Sorrels were telling the truth.

Oh and I forgot, Gerald Blaine.

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)

The "changed at the last moment [on the evening of Nov. 21st]" recollections attributed to Police Officer Sam Bellah are proven wrong by taking just one look at the November 19th Dallas newspapers. There was no "last minute change"---period. And this 11/19/63 Dallas Morning News article proves it....

WH_Vol22_0323a.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)
You're wrong.  The front page of the Dallas Morning News on November 22, the day of the President's visit, showed the president's car skipping Main Street altogether.

You're wrong.  The front page of the Dallas Morning News on November 22, the day of the President's visit, showed the president's car skipping Main Street altogether.

Edited by Rich Pope

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

The front page of the Dallas Morning News on November 22, the day of the President's visit, showed the president's car skipping Main Street altogether.

Huh?? It doesn't show any such thing. The Main St. portion of the route is on this DMN map, plain as day....

DMN-Map-11-22-63.gif

 

Here's the complete DMN 11/22/63 front page.....

DMN-11-22-63.png

Edited by David Von Pein

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48 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Also, note the change of tactics.  Now he says well, all those people must be lying.

This is nothing but a blatant falsehood spouted by DiEugenio. I never once accused anyone of "lying" when it comes to this "Motorcade Route" topic.

 

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Posted (edited)

Davey, if you are saying they are all wrong, then what are you insinuating?  Those witnesses were all clearly quoted by Vince.

They all said there was a last minute change to the route.  its pretty much straightforward.  I mean I do not know how anyone can misconstrue them.  For example, Bellah says someone came to his house on the 21st to personally escort him to the changed route. This was the night before.  He then says he was never given an explanation as to why.

Now if you say there was no changed route, and he says there was a change, and he knows this from his personal experience, then please explain to me what else the explanation could be?

Was the witness suffering from dementia and Vince did not know he was in such a state?  Did Vince pay him for the story?  Did he want to make a name for himself?

Please choose one or more of the above.

To me, and to most others, the most logical observation is you think he is lying. I don't think the other explanations have much credibility, unless you can prove one of them. Which, as we know from past experience, you will not since you will not leave Indiana.

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)

BTW, the other tactic used by DVP above, showing the 11/19 story reveals another trait of his.  He does not what he does not know.  Including that he is licked.

See, Freund wrote a story on the sixteenth, which said the motorcade would come down Main Street. 

Freund then printed the story above, on the 19th, that included the dogleg.

On the 20th, the DMN changed it to the Main Street only directions.

Then on the 22nd, it printed a map which only included the Main Street route.

Therefore, if you go by the stories, which DVP originally misrepresented, the route was changed after the 19th.

That would align with VInce's witnesses.

Do I think that solves it?  Nope. The only way you solve this thing conclusively, is the way a real criminal investigator does it.  He confronts the people in authority with their own acts and with contradictory witnesses. 

 That did not happen with the WC, since they were sops for the higher ups. But I do think the weight of the evidence does indicate the route was changed.

 

 

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Therefore, if you go by the stories, which DVP originally misrepresented, the route was changed after the 19th.

Just exactly how did I "misrepresent" the various DMN stories, Jim? Please cite for that charge.

Also....

Since you think the route was changed AFTER the 19th, then how do you account for the Times Herald including the Elm turn in its Nov. 21st edition [below]? This is the very same route published by this same paper on the 19th. Were the 2 Dallas papers getting their info from completely different sources? Is that what you believe?

Dallas-Times-Herald-11-21-63.jpeg

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Davey, if you are saying they are all wrong, then what are you insinuating?

They are wrong, certainly. But I don't think any of them are liars. But particularly Bellah's story is wrong. And provably so---via the 11/19 papers. (Unless, for some reason, Bellah wasn't provided the COMPLETE motorcade route until 11/21, which I guess is possible. But that doesn't prove the Elm dogleg WASN'T part of the original route. It would only indicate that some officers weren't privy to the full route until a couple days later.)

BTW, Jim, do you have a copy of the Nov. 20 (Wednesday) DMN? I've always heard (including from you) that the route printed in that day's DMN showed no Elm turn. But I've never been able to find a copy of that paper online. Do you have it? If so, what exactly does it say re: the route? I'm just curious.*

* EDIT --- I've now found the 11/20 DMN online. It's right there in the WCR volumes too, in CE1364. (Duh.) And it does say only Main Street. But it also says that the route would go from MAIN to STEMMONS, and the only proper (and legal) way to get from MAIN to STEMMONS is via the Elm St. dogleg. So, really, the 11/20 DMN does IMPLY the Houston & Elm turns when it says MAIN followed immediately by STEMMONS.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

Davey, this is what you said, in your usual bombastic style at the beginning of this thread:

That's ridiculous, and Vince Palamara has to know it. The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363].

Who does Palamara think he's kidding?

Now, that is misrepresenting things because you only used the DMN of the 19th.  Which is not the whole story at all.  As I proved above.  This is a very disturbing tendency of yours: cherry picking.

Now when I said the above about after the 19th, I was using your logic. Since you were relying on the papers and public announcements. As i noted above, I do not think personally that this solves it.  But Bellah's story supersedes your DTH story since it came after it.

And I also fail to see how someone can be "wrong" about a personal experience. 

 I do not have the story from DMN on the 20th. My files were given to Bill Davy.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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