Jump to content
The Education Forum
Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

Recommended Posts

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:10 AM, Paz Marverde said:

Thank you all for your help. We are on something BIG, about Dealey Plaza. That's why I'm asking

Hello, Paz!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:58 AM, Paz Marverde said:

I'm deeply interested in this question. Who ordered the dog leg deviation so fatal for JFK? Confirmed it was Cabell? Any news from the latest docs?

Thank you for starting this excellent thread!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 6:40 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Question - was it the Kennedy family that locked up Manchester's materials? You have to wonder about Jackie's info being unavailable until 2067, and whether the family could change this.

My understanding is: Jackie locked up her interview until that time (WHAT did she say to have to lock it up for 100+ years?!). The others were locked up via Manchester's own whim and desire, while a fair amount of the rest are available at Wesleyan University. I am amazed that the ARRB allowed this, unless their hands were tied, as Manchester was still alive at the time of their tenure and maybe they felt "better to have most of the materials than none at all."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Your imagination doesn't match the photographic evidence.  Many of these people [in the Bronson photo] are walking from Main Street over to Elm.  They were not waiting for the President on Elm. 

You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn....

Altgens-5.jpg


15b.%2BFrame%2BFrom%2BThe%2BHughes%2BFilm.jpg


15c.%2BCroft%2BPhoto%2BShowing%2BJFK%27s%2BCar%2BOn%2BElm%2BStreet.jpg


Zapruder-Frame-115.jpg

Did all of those people we see lining both sides of Houston Street (plus the many women we see lined up on the north side of Elm Street in the Zapruder Film) suddenly dash to those positions from Main Street just seconds before they saw the President's car approaching the Plaza? (I kind of doubt they did.)

Correcting another inaccurate Rich Pope statement....

It's misleading to say that the people we see running toward Elm Street in this Charles Bronson photograph were "walking from Main Street" (as you claimed). Those people were almost certainly running toward Elm after having just watched the President pass by their position on (or very near) the corner of Houston and Main Streets.

Those bystanders who were initially situated on (and near) the corner of Main & Houston could see that the unique set of turns that were coming up for JFK's car would enable them to catch a second glimpse of the President and First Lady when the limousine turned onto Elm Street, so they ran over to Elm (from Houston & Main) for a second look. But they certainly wouldn't have been camped out further west on Main Street when they began their dash toward Elm. All of those parade watchers very likely started their dash from the Main/Houston corner.
 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

My hypothesis is that before the President landed in Dallas, no ordinary person knew for sure what the exact route would be.  They knew certain parts of the route for sure but this zig-zag to Elm couldn't have been anticipated.  Was it a possibility?  Yes.  Was it a certainty?  Nope.  

You're wrong, Rich. The Houston and Elm turns were most definitely a "certainty" as of the morning of Tuesday, November 19th.

Repeating my earlier comment (and listen to the radio and TV coverage I provide here too, which has the announcers informing the Dallas citizens that "Houston" and "Elm" are going to see motorcade action in downtown Dallas that day)....

"The reality is, of course, that those people...knew where to stand along Houston and Elm Streets that day because they all knew, prior to the motorcade ever arriving in Dealey Plaza, that JFK's motorcade would be coming down those exact streets (Houston and Elm). And they knew that information because it was published--in detail--in both of the Dallas newspapers on Tuesday, November 19th, and again in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday, November 21st (in addition to being announced on both radio [at 4:04] and television [at 28:15] between 11:30 AM and 12:00 noon on November 22nd)." -- DVP

 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

...those people lining Elm...when did they get there?  Were they there before the limo made the turn on Houston?

Yes. That's obvious from just this one Z-Film frame. JFK's car is not on Elm yet, and both Elm and Houston are packed with people. (And please don't tell me, as some CTers have in the past, that all these women on Elm are "Cardboard Cutouts")....

Zapruder-Frame-115.jpg

 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here you can see them before and after the splice...

The people had nothing to do with altering the film...  unless one does a frame to frame analysis how the film was altered is much more difficult to see.

We need to remember that the route was changed for the single purpose of framing Oswald... cause no one could have made the shot if the limo was over on Main...?  Really?

The change moved the press truck and physician to the back and removed McHugh from center front limo.... then moved all escorts to behind the limo....

There would be no one in front of JFK, no one to the sides....  a sitting duck.

5a9d8a6e28b27_z001-133-135stopstartanalysis.thumb.jpg.6cf629656f6e07391740e06f92c07934.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

We need to remember that the route was changed for the single purpose of framing Oswald...

Is there any chance that conspiracy theorists will ever stop repeating the lie about the motorcade route being "changed"? Because no matter how many times CTers/Fantasists repeat that myth, it will never become a fact. It will always be a lie. And provably so. For the 54th time now, the proof that the route wasn't "changed" at the last minute (or even in the last three days) exists in Commission Exhibits 1362 and 1363. I guess CTers just refuse to read.

CE1363--Dallas-Morning-News--11-19-63.jp

 

WH_Vol22_0322b.jpg

 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

I guess my next question would be this...those people lining Elm...when did they get there?  Were they there before the limo made the turn on Houston?  Did they run over as they realized the President was headed for Elm?  My hypothesis is that before the President landed in Dallas, no ordinary person knew for sure what the exact route would be.  They knew certain parts of the route for sure but this zig-zag to Elm couldn't have been anticipated.  Was it a possibility?  Yes.  Was it a certainty?  Nope, not as far as people like Oswald were concerned.  And what?!  No comment about the pretty girl I found standing on Elm?  Come on people!  

In terms of what DVP calls "dueling photographs," DVP wins hands down.

There is simply no question--based on documents, newspaper reports, and radio broadcasts (and the bystander photos)--that the motorcade route (including what has been called the "dog leg") was known in advance.  As I mentioned, the White House--meaning Pierre Salinger--released the information to the press on Tuesday, November 19, in Washington, and the motorcade routes (for all five cities on JFK's itinerary) were published in the local press (in each of the five cities)  starting on Tuesday, November 19th.

Second: the same information was included in radio and TV broadcasts, and repeated (in Dallas) on Friday morning, 11/22.

As I recall-and this is from listening to KRLD (CBS), WBAP (NBC) and WFAA (ABC)  tapes of radio broadcasts at the National Arhives back in 1970-1972, it was often stated that the motorcade would go through downtown Dallas and then "out Stemmons Freeway" to the Dallas Trade Mart.  As any local resident would know, the only way to get onto Stemmons was via Elm Street.  I don't recall hearing any broadcast--ever--that the President would go through Dealey Plaza (on Main Street), continue on Main Street through the Triple Underpass and on out to Industrial Boulevard,  turn right onto Industrial, and take Industrial to the Trade Mart.  Repeatedly  it was "Stemmons Freeway to the Trade Mart" (and the only way to enter Stemmons was via Elm Street).

So the notion that once Air Force One landed "no ordinary person knew for sure what the exact route would be" is simply incorrect.

Changing the subject a bit, and this is addressed to Rich Pope: I asked what you believed Oswald's state of mind was that morning--say, about 11:40 AM when Air Force One landed at Love Field--but you haven't replied (yet). I offered several possibilities, but I'd be interested in knowing what your view is on this subject: Was he someone preparing to shoot the President?  Preparing to watch the motorcade,  or what?  Just what do you believe his thoughts were as the motorcade left Love Field, proceeded to the downtown area, and then was traveling east-to-west on Main Street? I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say on that question.

DSL

6/5/2018 - 10:25 PM PDT

South Orange County, California

Edited by David Lifton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Here you can see them before and after the splice...

The people had nothing to do with altering the film...  unless one does a frame to frame analysis how the film was altered is much more difficult to see.

We need to remember that the route was changed for the single purpose of framing Oswald... cause no one could have made the shot if the limo was over on Main...?  Really?

The change moved the press truck and physician to the back and removed McHugh from center front limo.... then moved all escorts to behind the limo....

There would be no one in front of JFK, no one to the sides....  a sitting duck.

5a9d8a6e28b27_z001-133-135stopstartanalysis.thumb.jpg.6cf629656f6e07391740e06f92c07934.jpg

David Josephs:

Your post states: "We need to remember that the route was changed for the single purpose of framing Oswald... cause no one could have made the shot if the limo was over on Main...?"

This is incorrect. The route was never "changed". It was designed, from the outset to create (or "incorporate") what I call the "crossed paths" situation between LHO (the preselected patsy) and JFK (the target to be murdered).   (And I agree. . had the car been on Main Street, and flashing by at near highway speed, towards Industrial Boulevard, the notion of someone   --anyone--hitting the target from the Sixth Floor of the TSBD would not have been particularly credible).

But back to my original point. . . I think the reason some people insist on using the language that the "route was changed" is that they cannot believe (or accept) the notion of so much premeditation in the President's murder.  So they they believe that the original route was a "random event" (sort of) and then something "bad" happened and it was "changed."

But that's not what the evidence indicates happened.

From the outset, the route was designed to create this "crossed-paths"situation"; and that's why I asked, in a previous post, probably addressed to DiEugenio: "Do you have a problem with the assassination being planned two weeks in advance?"

Of course, I was being facetious., The assassination--as an event that was "on the drawing boards"--was planned considerably more than "two weeks in advance." 

Moreover, to those who study these events even more closely,  you will find evidence that at one point, when it looked like there might be a chance that the President would speak elsewhere (e.g., at a downtown hotel) Oswald suddenly showed up for a job interview at a downtown hotel, which would have placed him on a different route.  The entire subject is worthy of a Master's thesis by someone majoring in history, and perhaps I can provide the essentials in a future wiring.

DSL
6/5/2018 - 10:45 PM PDT

South Orange County, California

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/4/2018 at 3:34 AM, David Lifton said:

...this same deceitfulness occurred on 11/22/63, on the flight from Fort Worth to Dallas, when Gov JC [John Connally] was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade," only to see the opposite, when he deplaned, and could see the cars all lined up for a motorcade.

David L.,

How in the world can the above "Connally Still Didn't Know About A Motorcade As Late As 11/22" situation have possibly existed when we know that practically ALL of the rest of Dallas and Fort Worth was aware---as early as Nov. 19!---that a motorcade was definitely going to take place in Dallas? It doesn't make sense.

Am I supposed to actually believe that Gov. Connally, who was himself organizing many of the details pertaining to Kennedy's trip to Texas, was kept in total darkness as to the fact that any motorcade was going to take place in Dallas until he actually stepped off of Air Force One at Love Field on November 22nd---and even though Connally himself was going to be riding in that very motorcade that he supposedly knows nothing about until the very last minute??!

That's impossible for me to believe.

And I guess it would mean that Gov. Connally, who spent the night in Fort Worth on November 21, didn't see any of the Dallas-area papers that day (or evening), including this Dallas Times Herald which features a big map of the Dallas motorcade on the front page--and above the fold. (Maybe the Governor, though, wasn't big on reading newspapers when he was away from Austin. But if he had been exposed to that newspaper that day---Nov. 21st---he certainly would have been "tipped off" to the motorcade that was planned for the next day.)

What is your source, David L., for this sentence you recently wrote?....

"Gov JC was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade"."

Can you provide a link to your source for this rather remarkable and startling assertion (if such a link is available)? Thank you.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Hello, Paz!

Hi, Vince. I please invite you to read what my work mate wrote about Byrd, owner of 411 Elm Street and Centro Mondiale Commerciale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

David L.,

How in the world can the above "Connally Still Didn't Know About A Motorcade As Late As 11/22" situation have possibly existed when we know that practically ALL of the rest of Dallas and Fort Worth was aware---as early as Nov. 19!---that a motorcade was definitely going to take place in Dallas? It doesn't make sense.

Am I supposed to actually believe that Gov. Connally, who was himself organizing many of the details pertaining to Kennedy's trip to Texas, was kept in total darkness as to the fact that any motorcade was going to take place in Dallas until he actually stepped off of Air Force One at Love Field on November 22nd---and even though Connally himself was going to be riding in that very motorcade that he supposedly knows nothing about until the very last minute??!

That's impossible for me to believe.

And I guess it would mean that Gov. Connally, who spent the night in Fort Worth on November 21, didn't see any of the Dallas-area papers that day (or evening), including this Dallas Times Herald which features a big map of the Dallas motorcade on the front page--and above the fold. (Maybe the Governor, though, wasn't big on reading newspapers when he was away from Austin. But if he had been exposed to that newspaper that day---Nov. 21st---he certainly would have been "tipped off" to the motorcade that was planned for the next day.)

What is your source, David L., for this sentence you recently wrote?....

"Gov JC was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade"."

Can you provide a link to your source for this rather remarkable and startling assertion (if such a link is available)? Thank you.

DVP:

My source for this statement is brief article published in the New York Herald Tribune ("NYHT") on Saturday, November 23, 1963.

It is one of the earliest articles that I "clipped"--decades ago-- and there were no scanners back then. (And when I finally got a scanner, I did not have the clip, readily at hand; so it just remained as an isolated "clip" in a manila folder).

It was just 2-3 column inches long, the source was apparently Connally himself (or someone close to him); and the gist of it was that Connally had been assured (or "re-assured," I'm not sure which), on the flight from Fort Worth to Dallas that there would not be a motorcade; and that the President (and Jackie) would go directly from Love Field to the Trade Mart.  By "directly," it was made clear that there would be no slow moving ("political") motorcade; just a normal ride at ordinary highway speeds, and I don't today recall whether the article stated he was going in a car, or (alternatively) might be flown by helicopter from Love Field to the Trade Mart.

Yes, I fully understand how "reasonable" your question sounds: "If Governor Connally was "planning everything," then how can this be?"

Agreed. . . and I tended to think along the same lines; but . . . :

I can only respond by saying that this was reported in the New York Herald-Tribune, on 11/23; and that the Herald-Tribune was an important newspaper. It was not a "page 6 rag."

My conclusion, when I read the article --and I think the source of the "reassurances" to JC may have been (I stress "may have been") Congressman Al Thomas (of wink photo fame) - - was that Connally was being conned; that he must have continued his objections to a "downtown motorcade" and that this tug-of-war between what he wanted and what was being planned, apparently extended right up to the point when he deplaned from Air Force One in Dallas.

And this brings me to a most significant piece of evidence, a photograph which was published on either 11/23 or 11/24/63.

THE PHOTOGRAPH OF JC AT LOVE FIELD

It shows Connally standing beneath the wing of AF-1, with his wife to his right (camera-left); and you can just see, from the look on his face, that he is clearly distressed (if not frightened).

My own reconstruction was something like this: that he (JC) had been "reassured" on the flight, from FW to Dallas (which was just a ten minute flight [as if one were flying from Pasadena to LAX] that everything was going to be just fine; and that, contrary to what he might be hearing, the plans had changed, and there was going to be no motorcade.

But then, as he exited the plane, he could immediately see that he had been lied to, and --to be blunt--was not just worried, but scared.

None of this was pursued when he was questioned by the Warren Commission.

DVP: I went through a serious move recently, and a lot of my research materials were filed, in over 100 boxes, and put in storage. Unfortunately, it is not properly "indexed". In other words, I don't have the proper "Table of contents" of everything I have which would enable me to retrieve (with precision) every item. Often, this is not a problem, because 80% (at least) of my material is digitized and stored on disks.  Very likely, your data is more properly indexed than mine (at this date). Nonetheless, I tried--using Google--to locate the "Connally arrives at Love Field" photo" to which I am referring.  I may have found it--or something very close to it--on Pinterest, and I an try uploading the image here, as an attachment. Or: I can send it to you via email, and you can upload it.  Its very likely that you have a much better and clearer print of the photograph to which I am referring.

That's about the best I can do--at this moment--by way of responding to your question.

To repeat: 

The key document is a New York Herald Tribune story published on 11/23/63, the gist of which was that Connally was "re-assured," on the flight from Fort Worth to Dallas, that there would be no motorcade. And, secondly, that there is a photo of Connelly, standing there ("under the wing of AF-1", or so it would seem), appearing decidedly unhappy, if not frightened, as he looks on and sees the cars lined up for a motorcade.

DSL

6/6/2018 - 2:15 AM PDT

South Orange County, California

Edited by David Lifton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...