Jump to content
The Education Forum
Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

Recommended Posts

26 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

So this tiny curb - for which a simple ramp could be placed to remove the hairpin turn...

1128469037_ThislittlecurbisUNDOABLE-really.thumb.jpg.bde4f7bba05b24e3e5ebc11dee1c3880.jpg

This is POTUS and you really believe if the task that day was  "PROTECT POTUS AT ALL COSTS"...

that turn would have never been allowed... 

If you want to convince us that turn was part of the plan all along and the SS was simply derelict in its duty and complicit in the assassination...

I can go along with that...  but to accept THAT TURN as part of the planned motorcade is to invite more folly to this discussion...

Reply to David Josephs:

Thanks for posting these interesting photographs. . of course, they don't really show the exact situation as it existed back in November 1963 (the skyline, with all the recent highway structures, is sure different). But. . 

Yes, David; the right turn from Main onto Houston was the route that was officially released, in Washington, by Pierre Salinger's office, on November 19, 1963, and which was published in the media on that date. It was also the route, IMHO, that was test-driven by the Dallas Police Department starting around November 14th.

But now consider the full implications of what you are proposing:  getting some carpenters to build a wooden ramp so that the presidential motorcade---press buses and all (!)--could proceed down Main past the TU, turn right over this "Rube Goldberg" type wooden ramp, and then access Stemmons in that fashion.  IMHO: the local press would have had a field day, writing articles about how the Secret Service was so concerned about an assassin lurking in the vicinity of Elm and Houston, that they had gone out of their way to get carpenters to build this sort of "wooden ramp" so as to avoid that area, because--they feared--the President of the United States might be shot at that location.

Think about it. It would have been a public relations nightmare.

Not to mention the mechanical problem of several of those long greyhound-type press busses attempting the "cross-over" from Main, and then (somehow) onto Stemmons.

For me, this is the material that could be used by a late-night comic. . . "And on his recent trip to Dallas, JFK (assuming he had lived, now) was heard to ask: "Why did they build that wooden ramp, modifying the highway down there beyond the Triple Underpass. . and the Secret Service explained. . "Don't worry Mr. Mr. President, we were just worried about the possibility of you being shot while traversing Dealey Plaza."

I'm sorry, David; but I think that the "wooden ramp" idea is a non-starter.

DSL

6//6/2018 - 3:10 PM PDT

Edited by David Lifton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Is it or is it not Secret Service protocol to not drop below 25-35mph and not take a slow turn like Main to Houston or Houston to Elm... 

If the route included the turn onto Houston it would be a major breech of safety protocol...

Well, let's just examine a picture from a different JFK motorcade....

There's this photo below taken in Fort Worth on the morning of 11/22/63 (with the President standing up in the car). Do you think the car is going above 25-35 MPH here? Not a chance. Particularly since the President is standing at the time and the car is turning a corner.

And also take note of the fact that there are no Secret Service agents at all riding outside any of the cars here (or walking alongside JFK's car). The SS follow-up car in the Fort Worth motorcade wasn't the Cadillac stretch limo that was used in Dallas. In Fort Worth, we can see that the SS used just a regular sedan and all of the agents had to sit INSIDE the car (while keeping the doors open slightly so they could get out quickly if needed). There were no running boards to stand on. And, also unlike Dallas, there were no built-in steps (or platforms) on the back of JFK's car in Fort Worth either. Which means, from those specific standpoints I just mentioned, the "security" that was in place in Dallas was actually better than the security utilized for the Fort Worth parade just an hour earlier.

But to hear conspiracy theorists tell the story, the security surrounding JFK's limo in Dallas was the worst that has ever existed. But when we look at just a few photos of other Kennedy motorcades, such as the one below from Fort Worth and these additional examples, we can see that that just is not the case at all.

 Fort-Worth-11-22-63.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, David Lifton said:

THE PHOTOGRAPH OF JC AT LOVE FIELD....

Love-Field-11-22-63.jpg

It shows Connally standing beneath the wing of AF-1...and you can just see, from the look on his face, that he is clearly distressed (if not frightened).

My own reconstruction was something like this: that he (JC) had been "reassured" on the flight, from FW to Dallas (which was just a ten minute flight [as if one were flying from Pasadena to LAX] that everything was going to be just fine; and that, contrary to what he might be hearing, the plans had changed, and there was going to be no motorcade.

But then, as he exited the plane, he could immediately see that he had been lied to, and--to be blunt--was not just worried, but scared.

Thank you, David L., for your reply. I appreciate the information.

I think, however, that it's a very difficult task to try and determine in any definitive way what a person's overall demeanor and attitude might be by just looking at one photograph taken of that person. If you'll recall, Johnnie Cochran attempted a similar trick when he was defending O.J. Simpson for double murder in 1995, when Cochran tried to convince the jury through the use of a videotape that Simpson was very happy and congenial just a few hours before his ex-wife was murdered, and therefore Simpson couldn't possibly be the real killer. But, as everybody knows, sometimes looks can be very deceiving.

Now, if I wanted to engage in another round of Dueling Photographs, I would then make use of the picture below, which shows Governor John Connally standing up in the Presidential limousine at Love Field in Dallas prior to JFK getting into the car. And look at the expression on Connally's face. Does he look worried or concerned or frightened here? I don't think so. But does this picture mean that the Governor wasn't worried about anything at that particular moment? No, I don't think it proves that either....

At+Love+Field+%252811-22-63%2529%2528LBJ

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

So this tiny curb - for which a simple ramp could be placed to remove the hairpin turn...

1128469037_ThislittlecurbisUNDOABLE-really.thumb.jpg.bde4f7bba05b24e3e5ebc11dee1c3880.jpg

This is POTUS and you really believe if the task that day was  "PROTECT POTUS AT ALL COSTS"...

that turn would have never been allowed... 

If you want to convince us that turn was part of the plan all along and the SS was simply derelict in its duty and complicit in the assassination...

I can go along with that...  but to accept THAT TURN as part of the planned motorcade is to invite more folly to this discussion...

Thanks for posting this pic. I’d heard for years that it was as the pic shows. I hope none of us think that the route chosen wasn’t desired by the assassins. Isn’t that the important point? He was led into a crossfire. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, John Butler said:

David,

Sorry for being one.

David Lifton's interpretation of John Connally's expression is interesting.  I usually don't take the other side or make statements that can agree with the Lone Gunners positions.  But, if you look at President Kennedy's expression and block the smile he seems as concerned as Connally.

We don't know what is causing Connally's expression.  He might have a hemorrhoid problem and is dreading the ride in the jump seat for 12 miles. 

John Butler:

Your post (above) states: "We don't know what is causing Connally,'s expression."

I don't believe that to be entirely the case. Indeed, the reason I believe that the New York Herald-Tribune clip I cited is so important is that, if it is true, then it provides us (i.e., "history" et al) with a possible explanation for his "worried" appearance. He's just been on an 8 minute flight from Fort Worth, in which he was told "A" (by Congressman Al Thomas, if memory serves), and then as he deplanes, he sees that he was misinformed (i.e., "lied to") and the situation is "B". IMHO: that explains why he's looking so distressed.

I am sure that, at some point in time (and hopefully 'sooner than later') I can locate that NY Herald-Tribune report, because it is highly relevant in evaluating Gov JC's demeanor, as shown on this picture.

DSL

6/6/18 - 5 PM PDT

3 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

Totally agree

 

Edited by David Lifton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Von Pein,

"Oh, yes, I forgot about having to factor in the constant refrain coming from Conspiracy Fantasists of: "All Of These Pictures Are Fakes, Therefore I Can't Use Them To Prove My Point".

So sorry."

Not all but, most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your reply Mr. Lifton,

I believe I have seen that expression on John Connally's face in other photos.  It does go well with learning his new seating arrangements for the motorcade ride. One of my favorite films is the AMIPA film.  I went back and reviewed it thinking that Connally was mostly morose during the ride.  But, the opposite was true enough though his eyes were pointed upwards and not at the crowd many times during the ride on Main St.

I believe Connally knew what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza.  He didn't like it but he soldiered on with the plan.  He had no choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, John Butler said:

his eyes were pointed upwards and not at the crowd many times during the ride on Main St.

John, I just scrolled through a bunch of pictures and could only find one of those.

Can you back up what you say with some more photos of Connally looking up at buildings on Main St.?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Michael,

It is in the AMIPA film of Bob Yeargan.  I just reviewed that looking to see if Connally was morose and sullen as shown by David Lifton.  He was mostly smiling and waving to the crowd.  You will need to do a frame by frame scan using good software.  I borrowed the software idea from Robin Unger and use Cyberlink Power DVD 16.  I can't post unless I delete from other posts.  Connally is mostly waving to the crowd and smiling.  But, he is keeping an eye on the upper floors of buildings along Main. 

You can also see Roy Kellerman watching Kennedy in the rear view mirror.

I am not a great fan of motorcade photos beginning with Altgens 5.  The one Michael Walton posted earlier has alteration problems and others like the photo on the Crossfire book is suspicious.

So, sorry.

Edited by John Butler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, David Lifton said:

I'm sorry, David; but I think that the "wooden ramp" idea is a non-starter.

But gong down ELM the entire route, instead of MAIN... no good either huh?

Seems the planning was purposefully done to put him into the most harm.. the one spot that was least covered was the most dangerous... but then again we are to remember that the SS has no threats with which to be concerned in Dallas...

:huh:

David, that you can't see it done makes it a non-starter?

Again, the point remains... JFK was brought to his murder, the assassins did not come to him...  that you'd see this little turn as benign as DVP does is humorous...

In the final analysis here David, Vince's work on the subject is more than thorough enough to understand how the SS influenced the assassination, including the changing of the motorcade order and route at the last moments...  and the removal of SS agent shields from the rear bumpers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Paz Marverde said:

A benign turn?? OMG

As opposed to the malignant driver... 

"I didn't look"

600691473_GreerlooksatJFK.thumb.jpg.910fb909f02bf558a430723dd34c523c.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

As opposed to the malignant driver... 

"I didn't look"

600691473_GreerlooksatJFK.thumb.jpg.910fb909f02bf558a430723dd34c523c.jpg

What to say ...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

I know that "conspiracy" carries a negative connotation, especially when someone is labeled a conspiracy theorist.  However, the question is simple in my mind...Could one person, Lee Harvey Oswald pull-off by himself, with no help from anyone else what he is accused of doing on November 22, 1963?  To me the answer is, "no".  I don't think any one person could do it.  

That is the most salient point that one can make to anyone with an open ear. After that, IMO, all the effort and words wasted on LHO are a huge waste of time and effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...