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Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

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I dunno - those motorcycle cops in the McIntyre picture may just be squinting and grimacing.  A photo captures only a millisecond of facial movement, and we may be seeing a fraction of their reactions to negotiating a turn in formation, under bright sunlight.

See posts on this EF page:

 

Edited by David Andrews

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As Vince mentioned, the guys on motorcycle said they could hardly believe the route when they were instructed about it at Love Field.

Which coincides with the other witnesses in VInce's book.

There is no doubt that there was confusion about the actual route.  As everyone except DVP knows, there was a dispute about it between two camps.

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that reporting information  was going through the two camps, and that is why you had two versions.

What DVP wants to avoid is the almost unbelievable irresponsibility of what Lawson and Sorrels did.  Not only did they set up an L shaped ambush to kill Kennedy, one that could not have been rehearsed in advance any better with the sniper team itself, but Lawson cut down the cycle protection  to the side.  And when one compares  the 16 cycles in Houston to the Lawson ordered four cycles in Dallas, well, Duh?  Made to order, was it not?

That could only have happened with the dog legged route.  And again, this is a month after the Stevenson incident. And three weeks after the attempt in Chicago.

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David Lifton wrote:

“Also, on that general subject, and in the spirit of "further study," let me add this fact: if one listens to the audio of the DPD channels (I believe its DPD Channel 1, but possibly Ch. 2), within 30 seconds of the actual shooting of JFK, one of the cycle cops used the transmitter key on his radio to clearly broadcast the following, easily identifiable signal to anyone  who (like myself) knows Morse code (which I did, and still do, as a ham radio operator). The signal went: "Di Di Di Daah. . . Di Di Di Daah." That's "dot-dot-dot-dash," Morse code for the letter "V" (for "Victory"),  which marks the opening of Beethoven'w Fifth Symphony…” 

David, you said “…within 30 seconds of the actual shooting”…. Was the Morse Code “V V” before or after the shooting?

Also, how does a motorcycle radio key transmit dots and dashes? Was it short and long periods of static from the key, or a tone of some sort?

As an aside, Igor Vladimirs Vaganov was supposedly a radio genius, brought a bunch of gear with him to Dallas, and some have suggested that he was a communications guy that day. 

Thank you,

Tom
 

Edited by Tom Hume

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

But it certainly was "spelled out" quite clearly on both radio and television between 11:30 and Noon on Nov. 22. I wonder how many Dallasites were watching/listening to this?....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/motorcade-route.html#TV-And-Radio-Reported-The-Elm-Street-Turn-On-11-22-63

And I would love to add some of the local Dallas TV & Radio newscasts from Nov. 19, Nov. 20, and Nov. 21 to my A/V archives, because it's quite possible that the words "Houston" and "Elm" were mentioned by the television and radio reporters sometime during those three days (which was the three-day period after the Houston and Elm turns had been mentioned in both Dallas newspapers).

Four days ago, David Lifton mentioned in one of his posts that he had, in fact, listened to some of the local Dallas radio broadcasts regarding the motorcade when he was at the National Archives in the early 1970s....

"There is simply no question--based on documents, newspaper reports, and radio broadcasts (and the bystander photos)--that the motorcade route (including what has been called the "dog leg") was known in advance. .... The same information was included in radio and TV broadcasts, and repeated (in Dallas) on Friday morning, 11/22. As I recall---and this is from listening to KRLD (CBS), WBAP (NBC) and WFAA (ABC) tapes of radio broadcasts at the National Archives back in 1970-1972---it was often stated that the motorcade would go through downtown Dallas and then "out Stemmons Freeway" to the Dallas Trade Mart." -- David S. Lifton; 6/6/2018

David L.,

Do you, by chance, happen to currently possess any copies of those KRLD, WBAP, and WFAA pre-11/22 radio broadcasts? If so, I'd love to hear them. If not, do you have any memory of hearing anything more specific about the Houston and Elm turns in any of those radio news reports?

 

The title of one of the "original" Warren Commission "CD's" (Commission Documents) reads ("Tapes of Dallas Radio Broadcasts").  You can find that entry on the NARA Warren Commission "List of Basic Source Materials", and its up in the 800 or 900 area of the list (which has about 1550 items).

I requested that tape collection, and  spent hours reviewing  them--every single one of them. While I played the materials on "their" recorder, I had rented a second SONY 560 (or something); and had a patch chord set-up, so I could record relevant excerpts as I went along.

 What I remember, most clearly, were the many tapes from KRLD, and--as I recall--WBAP (I think).  As stated,, I made an "excerpt tape" (and kept a detailed notebook, as I reviewed the items, one by one).  I don't want to rely on recollection too much; but I do remember one that began something like this, as the motorcade left Love Field (don't hold me to every word):

Announcer: Well, its a beautiful sunny day here in Dallas!  And there's the gun-metal gray limousine, slowly pulling away, with the President and the First Lady and Governor and Mrs. Connally.  For those of you lined up to see the President, here's the motorcade route!  Lemmon to Cedar Springs, to Turtle Creek, down Harwood to Main, then on Main Street to. . . "

And here's where my memory fails, or at least I don't wish to rely on it, in writing this post.

But I'm 80% sure that the turn from Main to Houston, and then onto Elm was included, because I am certain that the announcer said that the motorcade would be going to the Trade Mart via Stemmons Freeway, and you can't access Stemmons (directly) from Main. So. . .that's a deduction (more or less); not a recollection. But that's my recollection - - that the announcer (the same one who enthusiastically said, when AF-1 landed, and JFK and Jackie deplaned) "And I can see his tan from here!" (not realizing, of course, that the "tan" was not a sun tan, but from Kennedy taking cortisone, for the Addison's Disease). . So he's the same one that described, as the motorcade started moving, the limo as the "gun metal gray limousine". . and then said, "And for those who weren't here at Love Field, and are waiting on the motorcade route. . :" etc. . And yes,  then he described the route.

DVP: If you have the KRLD radio tape, I'm pretty sure its right on that tape.  

DSL

6/10/18 - 4 PM PDT 

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David L.,

Oh, in your June 5th post, I thought you were referring to PRE-NOV. 22 radio broadcasts, and not the NOV. 22 broadcasts (all of which I have myself, and have even linked to numerous times in this thread, such as in my last post). Those quotes you mentioned can all be heard in the TV and radio broadcasts I just linked to above....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/motorcade-route.html#TV-And-Radio-Reported-The-Elm-Street-Turn-On-11-22-63

Do you, DSL, have any PRE-11/22 radio or TV broadcasts?

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1 hour ago, Tom Hume said:

David Lifton wrote:

“Also, on that general subject, and in the spirit of "further study," let me add this fact: if one listens to the audio of the DPD channels (I believe its DPD Channel 1, but possibly Ch. 2), within 30 seconds of the actual shooting of JFK, one of the cycle cops used the transmitter key on his radio to clearly broadcast the following, easily identifiable signal to anyone  who (like myself) knows Morse code (which I did, and still do, as a ham radio operator). The signal went: "Di Di Di Daah. . . Di Di Di Daah." That's "dot-dot-dot-dash," Morse code for the letter "V" (for "Victory"),  which marks the opening of Beethoven'w Fifth Symphony…” 

David, you said “…within 30 seconds of the actual shooting”…. Was the Morse Code “V V” before or after the shooting?

Also, how does a motorcycle radio key transmit dots and dashes? Was it short and long periods of static from the key, or a tone of some sort?

As an aside, Igor Vladimirs Vaganov was supposedly a radio genius, brought a bunch of gear with him to Dallas, and some have suggested that he was a communications guy that day. 

Thank you,

Tom
 

A I recall, it was within a minute or two of the shooting.  And it was not a "beep"  tone. It was simply someone pressing down on their mike button, and then releasing it; i.e., using it as a telegraph key.  So the brief sounds transmitted was the "on" and "off" of the unmodulated carrier. (Again: no words were spoken).

DSL

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14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

David L.,

Oh, in your June 5th post, I thought you were referring to PRE-NOV. 22 radio broadcasts, and not the NOV. 22 broadcasts (all of which I have myself, and have even linked to numerous times in this thread, such as in my last post). Those quotes you mentioned can all be heard in the TV and radio broadcasts I just linked to above....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/motorcade-route.html#TV-And-Radio-Reported-The-Elm-Street-Turn-On-11-22-63

Do you, DSL, have any PRE-11/22 radio or TV broadcasts?

No. I don't think there were any such items in that collection. Sorry.

DSL

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Thanks David L,

I'm still interested to know if the "V V" came before or after the shooting.

I understand that the police radio frequencies used to be in the “AM” band above 1600 kHz, but that is not necessarily the case today. It would be interesting to know what frequencies Dallas Police channels #1 and #2 were set to on November 22nd.  

“IGOR VLADIMIRS VAGANOV” anagrams to: 

(1) “IGOR V AM RADIO SIGNAL: VV”

(2) "MR IV, A 'GO' RADIO SIGNAL: 'VV'"

(3) "MR IVV, A GOV RADIO SIGNAL"

(It's my view that the name "Igor Vladimirs Vaganov" was created by Richard Case Nagell for puzzle purposes)

Tom
 

Edited by Tom Hume

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16 minutes ago, David Lifton said:

No. I don't think there were any such items in that collection. Sorry.

DSL

Okay. Thanks, David. I guess I misunderstood your June 5th post. I thought you might have heard some radio or TV newscasts from November 19-21. But you were talking only about hearing 11/22/63 broadcasts. My mistake.

BTW, I've been searching the Mary Ferrell Archives for the "CD" (Commission Document) you referred to....and so far only Commission Document No. 976 comes close to matching what you said was labelled "Tapes of Dallas Radio Broadcasts". But it's only a two-page inventory list of the radio logs that were obtained by the Secret Service in April and May of 1964. The actual logs (transcripts) are not included in CD976.

Surely, that brief log inventory isn't what you were referring to, is it DSL?

Edited by David Von Pein

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2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Okay. Thanks, David. I guess I misunderstood your June 5th post. I thought you might have heard some radio or TV newscasts from November 19-21. But you were talking only about hearing 11/22/63 broadcasts. My mistake.

BTW, I've been searching the Mary Ferrell Archives for the "CD" (Commission Document) you referred to....and so far only Commission Document No. 976 comes close to matching what you said was labelled "Tapes of Dallas Radio Broadcasts". But it's only a two-page inventory list of the radio logs that were obtained by the Secret Service in April and May of 1964. The actual logs (transcripts) are not included in CD976.

Surely, that brief log inventory isn't what you were referring to, is it DSL?

DVP:

FWIW. . Yes, it does sound like it. . . but: the document I was looking at was at least 100 pages. 

Some background (for you as well as those reading this) 

Here's what I learned, from the transmittal document(s) connected with that item.

To begin with, a question: how come all of these "Dallas radio tapes" ended up at the National Archives. Surely, they played no role (at least, no discernible role) in the WC investigation. . . so. . one might ask: What is going on here?"

Let me begin by asking another (closely related) question: Why did I want to review all of the Dallas radio station tapes?

Very simply: because I believed there had been a significant (i.e., politically significant) conspiracy; and I felt that, if that was so, then there was a high probability that there might be (i.e., "might have been") a leak of some sort, made by this or that person, who said something significant on one of the local radio broadcasts. So, that's how my interest began.

Sometime around 1969/70, I ordered the "inventory", which --as I said--ran over 100 pages (at least).

Which leads to the next question: Who made this inventory? i.e., how did it come to exist? And who (and for what purpose) were all these Dallas radio tapes collected?

The answer:  at some point shortly after the assassination, Secret Service agents were dispatched to Dallas to collect all--and I mean "all"--of the Dallas radio station tapes.

Then, those tapes had to be reviewed, as to content.

Now. . who the heck was equipped to embark on such a project?

Sure, the FBI could do it (i.e. "could have done it") -but it would take quite a few people, and then become a very public "matter of record."

Which then leads me to recount how all this was accomplished. . . So. . .read on.

HOW THE COLLECTION EFFORT WORKED. . .

After the Secret Service "collected" all these tapes (and I do believe they were the original broadcast tapes, from each and every Dallas and Fort Worth area radio station), they were sent to. . .guess where? . . .Tinker Air Force Base, in Oklahoma.

NEXT STEP: Tinker Air Force Base--and a complete review of the content

Apparently, teams of USAF people, wearing headsets, sat at their desks, or consoles, and reviewed the contents of each and every tape.

In each case, they made a "list" --or "inventory" --of the contents of each tape.

Those lists, when gathered together, became the Commission Document in question--and I'm not really sure its CD 976 (because there's a second "list", which was made strictly of WFAA tapes, and made by WFAA, not the US Air Force). . . so please do check carefully. . 

Anyway, that document produced, let's say, 200 pages of "inventory."

(N.B.: This is the "inventory" that i ordered, back around 1970, and it was large enough that I had it sent to me on 35 mm microfilm).

What this inventory permitted (at the time of its creation):

What this inventory permitted was for someone--some third party--to "review" the content of the hundreds of hours of radio broadcasts, without taking the trouble to personally listen to each and every one of the tapes.  In other words, that part had been "delegated".  So once that part was executed, these detailed lists existed.  So on to the "next step":  If the "reviewer" found something interesting, he (or she) could simply pull the reel in question, listen to the tape, make a transcript, or perhaps note the item, e.g.,  "Not important"; or perhaps  "Please review" etc.

OTOH: If something "important" was found--e.g., an audio-taped record of the Perry press conference--that could be pulled, reviewed, and possibly even excised from the tape, before its return. (I'm speculating here, based on what I saw, as to the purpose of what this was all about).

What this smacks of: Shortly after JFK's murder, someone in "high authority" wanted to get a definitive record of the entire "audio tape record" of all the radio stations in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, looking for "something."

What was the "something"?  When I did my review of all this material, I speculated that it was the Perry press conference. Some time later--as in "quite a few years later"--I came up with a superior hypothesis, which I cannot disclose at this time.  But I no longer think that the  Clark/Perry press conference is what this humongous "collection effort" was all about.

Anyway, the 100 plus pages of listed content were then turned over to the Warren Commission (or, perhaps more accurately, for I don't know the details) were sent directly to the National Archives (perhaps with an innocuous transmittal document saying "Please include this in the WC collection," or some such thing). And then, at some point (and I don't know when), the tapes (or perhaps dupes) were also sent to NARA.

So that is the backstory--such as I have been able to learn--as to how and why all these many Dallas radio tapes were (a) collected and then (b) analyzed to create a detailed list as to content.

NOW. . a question: who was behind all of this? (i.e., who "wanted to know" and what were they searching for?)

My personal hunch (no direct evidence. . . yet): Sec Def Robert McNamara (with the full approval of RFK).

Anyway, now you know the backstory.

ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT ALL OF THIS. . :

What's interesting about the account I have just related is this: I reviewed the Dallas Radio Tape collection thinking, "Oh my! What a good idea! I can see if any morsel of significant information may have slipped into the public record, via some interview or info broadcast locally!" . . in other words, that was my thought., And so I spent at least two weeks at NARA, reviewing all this stuff; only to come to realize --somewhat later--that "someone was here 'before me". . and that's why all these lists exist!  And that's why all this audio tape was collected, in the first place!"

In other words, these lists--and these audio tapes--don't exist at the U.S. National Archives ("NARA") because some good soul, out of the goodness of their heart, thought it was a nice idea to "collect" all this stuff.,  This material--the lists, and the audio--exist because "someone was here before me".  In other words, just as I--as a civilian--was "looking for something" (i.e., accidental leaks of information), I have come to believe that this collection was created, in the first place, by someone who had a similar goal, a similar agenda; and was carrying out the complex task of (a) collection and (b) analysis with that goal in mind, and on the orders of some "higher authority."

That's about all I know, and can say for certain, for now.

SOME ADDITIONAL DETAIL:

To do the work I did, which (as I recall, took at least 2 solid weeks, and perhaps more), I sat in the office of the NARA audio archivist, Les Waffen, with two SONY decks--one provided by NARA, on which I could play the original materials; and the other, rented by me, from an audio shop in Washington. So I arrived every day in Les's office, shortly after he did, and sat at that table for the entire day (and sometimes had lunch with Waffen) reviewing all the tapes--each and every one. Looking for any elusive "piece of data" that I might find, and only aware, towards the end, that the very collection I was searching constituted circumstantial evidence that "Hey, someone was here before me!"

Also, FWIW: the only reason I was able to do all this work was that--as I recall--I was extended hospitality by the late Bernard Fensterwald, who permitted me to spend every night as a house guest in his home, at Arlington, Virginia.

And still another note: It may have been --and I think it was--during this period that I spent one evening, having rented a car, going out to the home of William Greer, and spending several hours with him, engaged in what began as a gentle Q and A, but ended up in a very aggressive one-of-a -kind cross examination. And with him almost scolding me, as I left his home, saying to me in a not-so-friendly tone: "Well, I'll tell you one thing. Chief Rowley would sure be interested in knowing what you're doing!" (Another subject, another time).

And finally, this little vignette. At the end of my multi-week stay with Les Waffen, I wanted to leave with a momento--an audio momento--of my time there.   Les had supervisory control of a huge audio collection.  He suggested that I might want an audio copy of William Jennings Bryant's "cross of gold" speech (which closed: "You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold!"), but I declined that offer when he told me of some of the other possibilities.

And so I selected the US Army's official audio recording of the hanging of those convicted after the Nuremberg trial.  Its a very dramatic tape, with the voice of Army radio, broadcasting from Nuremberg,  describing how each convicted Nazi war criminal person ascended the gallows, how a black bag was put over his head, a rope tied around his neck, one or two proclaiming "Heil Hitler," and then "the trapdoor was sprung, and they went to their maker."

* * * 

So much for my experiences at NARA, circa 1970/71.

And perhaps some of you reading this can understand why I--and someone like Pat Valentino, to whom I related much of this--find it totally laughable that the truth of the Kennedy assassination can be found by pursuing the matter of David Ferrie or Clay Shaw.

Each to his own.

DSL

6/10/2018 - 6:30 PM PDT

Edited by David Lifton

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22 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Those lists, when gathered together, became the Commission Document in question--and I'm not really sure it's CD 976 (because there's a second "list", which was made strictly of WFAA tapes, and made by WFAA)...so please do check carefully.

Yes, there is an inventory of WFAA material only. I found it here in Commission Document No. 962.

According to this CD962 "title" page, it contains "A catalogue and index of the WFAA file of video tape, film, and audio tape of events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas".

The CD962 document, which consists of 129 pages, is a rather fascinating document for me to peruse, because it allows me (or anyone else) to compare the text description of WFAA-TV's assassination coverage* with the actual video of WFAA-TV's November 1963 programming, nine hours of which can be seen here....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WFAA-TV+Playlist+Logo-2.png
 

* NOTE --- I enjoyed reading through all of CD962, particularly the "Catalogue and Index" beginning on Page 32 of the document, but the chronology of the WFAA coverage within that document is all over the place. It keeps jumping around from day to day, skipping back and forth from November 22nd, to the 23rd, then back to JFK's breakfast appearance in Fort Worth on the 22nd, then it jumps forward two days to November 24th and the murder of Lee Oswald, then back to the 22nd, etc. I think most of the WFAA material is covered in CD962, but it's not presented in anything close to a seamless chronological order.

Edited by David Von Pein

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13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

David L.,

Oh, in your June 5th post, I thought you were referring to PRE-NOV. 22 radio broadcasts, and not the NOV. 22 broadcasts (all of which I have myself, and have even linked to numerous times in this thread, such as in my last post). Those quotes you mentioned can all be heard in the TV and radio broadcasts I just linked to above....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/motorcade-route.html#TV-And-Radio-Reported-The-Elm-Street-Turn-On-11-22-63

Do you, DSL, have any PRE-11/22 radio or TV broadcasts?

DVP: No, I don't.  (But I should locate and check my "Dallas Radio Tape" notebooks, to verify. But I don't think so.). DSL

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On 6/10/2018 at 10:42 PM, David Von Pein said:

 

The fact that the rifle paperwork doesn't fit properly is less clear and about as relevant as the fact that the rifle  in evidence and alleged ammunition couldn't replicate the wounds in Kennedy's body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYW08djFNmg&t=6m10s

No LN would be willing to argue for an exit in Kennedy's FACE, right?

 

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I still believe Oswald went to work in the TSBD on October 16, 1963 because he was told to go there and apply.  As part of his ongoing use as a CIA asset in an operation that might take place at that location.  He could be useful as a patsy.  Hiring him required someone inside the TSBD organization to be another CIA asset, not necessarily Truly but someone who told him to and to cooperate with other "patriots".  Persons organizing such a plot would only have done so if they were confident they could draw a motorcade past the TSBD into the kill zone of their snipers and thus blame the patsy.  Naturally they would obfuscate about the motorcade route to the public/papers/local police, as well as any inquiries.  After all, they could just wait out any of the last.  Until the Warren Omission was official.  Per the Ghost, JJA (last part). 

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7 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Has anyone read Jerome Corsi's book on the JFK assassination?

Rich

Why?  Did you find something new in it that everyone else who has read it missed?  Something on the motorcade route?

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