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Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

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David Lifton says:

"As the 3 cycle officers who led the motorcade emerged from the Triple Underpass, a photographer--McIntyre (not sure of spelling)--was standing somewhere on a grassy island just to the west of the TU--and he snapped an important photograph. It shows the 3 cyclists leading the way, with the chaos erupting behind them--i.e., with JFK's car, Curry's vehicle and others, now racing away from Dealey Plaza, and just emerging from under the TU.  If you blow up that photograph, one can get a pretty clear image of those 3 cycle cops, and the general impression that I got (and still "get")  is that they are smiling broadly.  Perhaps its just the sunny weather?  Sure, that's possible, and yes, its possible that they are completely unaware of what's just happened; but I think (as the saying goes) a picture is worth a thousand words, and that further study is warranted. "

There should be 5 motorcycle cops there not 3.  The 3 Advance motorbikes are in front of the 5 Lead motorbikes.    The three motorbikes are the ones we see in Zapruder.  The 5 motorbikes come next are not seen in Zapruder and precede the lead car with Jesse Curry and then presidential limousine.  Most photos and films show 3.  Bell shows 5 in a few frames and also shows 3 as representative of the 5 lead motorbikes.

3 Advance motorbikes in McIntyre shows you that someone has altered that photo.  The question is where are the 5 Lead Motorcycles in McIntyre?

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2 hours ago, John Butler said:

3 Advance motorbikes in McIntyre [sic] shows you that someone has altered that photo. 

Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer?

With that obvious answer being:

There are some additional motorcycles in front of the 3 cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera.

Plus....ask yourself:

Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? ....

November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-O

Edited by David Von Pein

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2 hours ago, John Butler said:

The three motorbikes are the ones we see in Zapruder.  The 5 motorbikes come next are not seen in Zapruder and precede the lead car with Jesse Curry and then presidential limousine.  Most photos and films show 3.  Bell shows 5 in a few frames and also shows 3 as representative of the 5 lead motorbikes.

FWIW...

I count eight (8) motorcycles riding in front of Chief Curry's Lead Car in this motorcade photo....

Dallas+Motorcade+On+Main+Street--11-22-6

Edited by David Von Pein

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On 6/10/2018 at 4:13 PM, David Lifton said:

If you blow up that [Mel McIntire] photograph, one can get a pretty clear image of those 3 cycle cops, and the general impression that I got (and still "get") is that they are smiling broadly.

Huh? I don't know how you can conclude that the three motorcycle officers have smiles on their faces in the McIntire photo. In reality, none of them are smiling at all.

I sure don't see any of the motorcycle policemen "smiling broadly" here....

Mel-McIntire-11-22-63-Photo-JFK's-Car-Is-Seen-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-Just-After-Assassination

Edited by David Von Pein

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

FWIW...

I count eight (8) motorcycles riding in front of Chief Curry's Lead Car in this motorcade photo....

Dallas+Motorcade+On+Main+Street--11-22-6

David,

 

I was really struck by this picture. Why in the world would you pack that many people in that confined a space? Do you think the planners of the motorcade anticipated that kind of crowd, or did it take them by surprise? It looks like that crowd of people must be 20 deep in there.

 

Steve Thomas

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2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer?

With that obvious answer being:

There are some additional motorcycles in front of the 3 cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera.

Plus....ask yourself:

Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? ....

November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-O

This is an exceptionally clear print, and I have re-examned it carefully.  I want to withdraw my previous remarks that the cyclists were smiling.

I no longer believe that to be the case.

DSL

6/15/2018 - 1:35 AM PDT

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5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer?

With that obvious answer being:

There are some additional motorcycles in front of the 3 cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera.

Plus....ask yourself:

Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? ....

November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-O

This picture was also used to highlight a couple of things"

1) It gives you a better idea of where James Tague was standing on Commerce St. and his position in relation to the TSBD

2) Where are the railroad workers on the bridge? They left their position pretty quickly.

3) There is no train obscuring J.C. White's vision of the motorcade.

4) The picture was used to refute Tom Tilson's claim to have seen a man sliding down the embankment west of the underpass and get into a dark car parked there. (What are those bollards in the middle of the field anyway?)

 

Steve Thomas

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Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer?

With that obvious answer being:

There are some additional motorcycles in front of the 3 cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera.

Plus....ask yourself:

Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? ....

November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-O

 

Thanks David Von Pein for making my point!  There should be 5 motobikes here.  They rode in formation.  Two are missing.  We can't assume anything other than what we see in this photo.

Or, you can assume whatever you want. 

 

FWIW...

I count eight (8) motorcycles riding in front of Chief Curry's Lead Car in this motorcade photo....

Dallas+Motorcade+On+Main+Street--11-22-6

 

There are 8 motorbikes.  3 advance motorbikes followed by 5 lead motorbikes.  When you do get to see the 5 lead motorbikes in various media they always ride together and not as a group of 3.

I don't know why the McIntyre photo is altered.  There doesn't seem to be a good reason for it except to match other films and photos.  Can't have a big discrepancy hanging out there for all to see. 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by David Von Pein  

Edited by John Butler

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Sorry,

I have to correct something I wrote.  I did find where the 5 Lead Motorcycles did separate into two groups in the Marie Muchmore film.  The other assassination films are uninformative.  When the Lead motorbikes turned onto Houston Street from Main Street they separate into two groups.  First, there were 3 motorbikes making the turn.  They were closely followed by the other two.

This offers weak evidence that this was there procedure for making the turns that they needed to make.  First, there would be a group of 3 bikes and then there would be two bikes.

If this is case then McIntyre does not show a group of two following the group of 3. 

David Von Pein is saying that the missing two turned first towards the Stemmons Freeway. 

There may be away to solve this small argument.  Identify who the 3 motorbike cops are:

Advance Motorcycle Policemen:

  1. Sgt. S. G. Bellah

  2. Glen C. McBride

  3. J. S. Garrick

Lead Motorcycle Policemen:

  1. Leon E. Grey

  2. E. D. “Buddy” Brewer

  3. Harold B. Freeman

  4. W. G. Lumpkin

  5. Sgt. Stavis Ellis

The two outside men in both formations (screen right) are:

  1. Glen C. McBride

  2. Sgt. Stavis Ellis

The outside man in McIntyre looks like Glen C. McBride.  Is there anyone still around who can identify these men?  Maybe Mary Moorman?

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David Von Pein,

I am going to withdraw my agreement with your position.  New information has led to another conclusion.   Again, I have to correct something I wrote. 

Let's go back to what was originally said,

 I did find where the 5 Lead Motorcycles did separate into two groups in the Marie Muchmore film.  The other assassination films are uninformative.  When the Lead motorbikes turned onto Houston Street from Main Street they separate into two groups.  First, there were 3 motorbikes making the turn.  They were closely followed by the other two.

This offers weak evidence that this was there procedure for making the turns that they needed to make.  First, there would be a group of 3 bikes and then there would be two bikes.

If this is case then McIntyre does not show a group of two following the group of 3. 

David Von Pein is saying that the missing two turned first towards the Stemmons Freeway. 

There may be away to solve this small argument.  Identify who the 3 motorbike cops are:

Advance Motorcycle Policemen:

  1. Sgt. S. G. Bellah
  2. Glen C. McBride
  3. J. S. Garrick

Lead Motorcycle Policemen:

  1. Leon E. Grey
  2. E. D. “Buddy” Brewer
  3. Harold B. Freeman
  4. W. G. Lumpkin
  5. Sgt. Stavis Ellis

The two outside men in both formations (screen right) are:

  1. Glen McBride

  1. Sgt. Stavis Ellis”

What needs to be changed is Glen McBride to Sgt. S. G. Bellah.   In the Zapruder film in Z frame 63 the outside rider in the Advanced Motorcycle Policemen is not Glen McBride but, Sgt. S. G. Bellah.  You can see that the outside rider has stripes or chevrons on his sleeve indicating he is a Sgt.   He is not Glen McBride.

This changes what I said earlier about the 3 motorbike cops being the Lead Motorcycle Policemen.  It is now possible that the outside rider in the McIntyre photo is not Sgt. Stavis Ellis but, maybe Sgt. S. G. Bellah.

The outside rider in the motorbike formation in the photo McIntyre (photo right) needs to be identified between Sgts. Stavis Ellis and S. G. Bellah.  This could be the Advanced Motorcycle Policemen with Sgt. S. G. Bellah as the outside rider.

This restores the notion that this maybe an altered photo. 

Can anyone help with this identification?  Identifying this Motorcycle Policemen will end this contention. 

Edited by John Butler

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I see no one has taken the challenge to identify the Motorcycle Policemen in the McIntyre photo.  There’s probably a good reason for that.  I ran across this topic in older threads. 

 Another proof the Zapruder film has been faked

Guest James H. Fetzer, January 22, 2012 in JFK Assassination Debate

(This is a really interesting discussion.  Folks should go back and review this from 2012)

In this thread on page 4 of the comments Robin Unger posted this photo and identification.

 

Looking back the other way

In McIntire Chaney is seen still inside the underpass.

jfkMcIntire1_Motorcycles.jpg

In a later post of this photo he has a closeup of the outside rider identified as Sgt. Ellis.  The Bell film is mentioned as information on the points they were making. 

I went back and reviewed the Bell film frame by frame.  3 motorcycle riders are shown and not 5 anywhere in the film.  There should be 5 shown somewhere there since they were not near the turn or shouldn’t be from the time sequence between Bell and McIntyre.

Bell shows the 3 motorcycle riders in a peculiar fashion.  They are shown in one spot past the triple underpass as being stationary.  The presidential limousine and accompanying vehicles move down Elm Street and pass under the Triple Underpass.  Meanwhile, the 3 motorbikes do not appear to be moving.

I could accept Robin Unger’s analysis if I knew what source he used to identify Sgt. Ellis.  Did someone recognize the outside rider as Sgt. Ellis or did Unger just assume as many others have this is a remnant of the 5 Lead Motorcycle Policeman and provide Lead Motorcycle names. 

Since, there are only 3 motorcycle cops shown then I am back to wondering is this the Advanced or Lead Motorcycle Policemen?  The peculiar fashion they are shown in Bell raises suspicions.

This is an important point.  If Unger is correct, then this a true picture of events in Dealey Plaza.  If not, then it is just another fake.  The first assumption may be the correct one since I can find no obvious signs of photo editing.  This is a really sharp and clear photo that can be magnified and looked at closely.  Other than the questionable identification of the 3 motorbike riders there are no obvious alterations.  If there is then they would be very well done and professional.  

Edited by John Butler

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DVP: 

Filing is a problem when one has collected the large amount of material that I have. Anyway: I found the notebook that I created when I spent the time examining the Dallas Radio Station Tapes back in 1970-1972.   As soon as possible,  I'm going to devote some time to reviewing it, and will let everyone know what I find, and what seems pertinent to post.  A companion document is a detailed inventory of 16 hours of audio excerpts that I made from the collection. 

DSL

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DVP,

I have already answered that question in my comments.  Again.  The action of the 3 motorbikes in the Bell film is no more than a couple of seconds from the action of the 3 motorbikes in the McIntyre photo.  They need to be in tune.  3 bikes shown in Bell and 3 bikes shown in McIntyre.   Only 3 bikes are shown in Bell and no sign of 5 motorbikes.  There should be 5 there since they are some distance from the turn. 

The question is not that important.  It is just a distraction. 

The real question is who is the outside bike rider in McIntyre.  Is it Sgt. Stavis Ellis of the Lead Motorcycles or is it Sgt. S. G. Bellah of the Advance Motorcycles.   On that question depends a reading of McIntyre as fake or not.

Maybe someone out there can go back and look at that older thread which has Robin Unger's posts and determine who that is? 

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