Who changed the motorcade route?

[Rob Couteau]

Ha! Good old Costa Gavras and his riveting film "Z." He certainly wasn't controlled by Hollywood and its B.S. artists. Nice comparison, Jim. PS: Gavros still serves as president of the Cinémathèque Française, a wonderful institution.

[David Von Pein]

18 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Freund wrote a story on the sixteenth, which said the motorcade would come down Main Street. 

Freund then printed the story above, on the 19th, that included the dogleg.

On the 20th, the DMN changed it to the Main Street only directions.

Then on the 22nd, it printed a map which only included the Main Street route.

Therefore, if you go by the stories...the route was changed after the 19th.

Notice how Jim totally ignored (once again) the Dallas Times Herald 11/21 map that I posted yesterday. (Jim likes to rely ONLY on the Dallas Morning News, I guess. The Times Herald doesn't count at all evidently.)

So, when we include the Times Herald of Nov. 21 (which Jim is avoiding at all costs), let's try to follow the Bouncing Motorcade Route from day to day....

---------------------------------

November 16 --- Main Street only (DMN).

November 19 --- Elm Street turn (Both Dallas papers---the DMN and DTH).

November 20 --- Main Street only (DMN).

November 21 --- Elm Street turn (DTH).

November 22 --- Back to Main Street only (DMN).

November 22 --- Elm Street turn (via the actual motorcade route taken by JFK that day).

---------------------------------

Now, it would require a massive amount of tortured logic to conclude that the above newspaper reports truly indicate that the motorcade route was actually changed back and forth a total of five different times over the course of a six-day period.

The route was never changed, and these two items below---which are identical---prove that fact (IMHO)....

November 19 --- Elm Street turn (Both Dallas papers---the DMN and DTH).

November 22 --- Elm Street turn (via the actual motorcade route taken by JFK that day).

Edited May 28, 2018 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

DVP, at beginning of this thread: 

"Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th"

My comment about five frames ago:

"Now when I said the above about after the 19th, I was using your logic."  Since we now know it was not in the DMN after that on the 20th or 22nd.

Case closed.

Edited May 28, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Rob:

That scene I excerpted from the film  Z is so cogent to what we are talking about.

See, the white haired guy with glasses is trying to offer the  prosecutor a way out.  And he even says, that way we can preserve law and order.  

But the prosecutor, played by that wonderful actorJean- Louis Trintignant, decides against it.  Now,  compare that with what Warren did in his speech to the WC young lawyers about how they were going to proceed e.g. the Eisenberg memo and  then the Hoover inspired Katzenbach memo.

So the result was just the opposite of what we see above. Instead of challenging those in power, Specter, and Belin and the others coddled those in power and then subverted the average people who were trying to tell the truth and could have been used against the higher ups, e.g. Sibert and O'Neill,  Malcolm Perry, Victoria Adams, Sandy Styles, Abe Bolden etc.

That is how you run a cover up. You do not work from the bottom up, you subvert the pursuit of justice by playing pattycake with those at the top.  I mean how could the WC be anything else, with Dulles and McCloy running things? Those guys kept on covering things up until 1967, with McCloy secretly consulting the CBS four night disgrace, and Dulles covertly running his agent Gordon Novel to spy on and subvert Garrison.

(BTW, although I think this is Costa Gavras' best film, he also made a couple of other good ones in this time period: The Confession and State of Siege.  Then he went to Hollywood and screwed up his career.)

 

Another good example of how you crack a broad conspiracy is depicted in David Grann's book, Killers of the Flower Moon, about the unbelievable conspiracy to steal the money from oil drilling profits from the Osage Indian tribe. That plot utilized over a dozen murders, and also bribes, perjury etc.  And it was all kept alive by local authorities, and when anyone wanted to try and do something, they were also killed. Finally, it got embarrassing for the just born FBI, bad publicity.  Which Hoover did not get with the Warren Commission until later.

So young J. Edgar sent a crackerjack FBI officer to the locale and gave him complete power over the inquiry.  He cracked the case in about a year.  This was mainly done by using the pyramid method I outlined above.  Which was never contemplated, let alone attempted by the WC.

Edited May 28, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Clark]

8 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Do me a favor and go to this link...http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-jfk-np/id/348.  You will see there is no map printed on that page, actually the weather report was printed where your map is.  In addition, I made a typo.  The final route published shows the motorcade not going down Elm street.  I accidentally said Main Street.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/utils/getfile/collection/po-jfk-np/id/348/filename/346.pdfpage/page/1

[Michael Clark]

7 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Michael,

Right.  Notice this archive of the Dallas Morning News conflicts with David Pein's.  David's has a map of the motorcade while the one located at Baylor University shows the weather report.  Also there is this that backs-up my claim.

Although both the Dallas Morning News and the Times-Herald carried the release of the motorcade route on the 19th, including the turn onto Elm St. ( 22 H 614 - 615 ), the next day, the Morning News described the motorcade route with no mention of the Elm St. turn. ( 22 H 616 )

 

Did David Von Pein know about this discrepancy when he posted it?

Edited May 28, 2018 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

I do notice that one has 4 stars, and another has 3, presumably different editions.

[James DiEugenio]

If anything shows that there was a conflict about the route, I guess this really does.

 

[Rob Couteau]

On 5/27/2018 at 11:45 PM, James DiEugenio said:

That is how you run a cover up.

Jim, Many thanks for all this great information. I was not aware of the Grann book or of the story it tells. BTW, Costa Gavros was introduced to American viewers by a very interesting Sixties figure named Donald Rugoff, who owned some of the best independent movie theaters in NYC (Cinema One, Two, and Three; and the Art, Beekman, Gramercy, Murray Hill, Paramount, Paris, Plaza, and Sutton theaters). Rugoff’s Gramercy Theatre specialized in foreign and independent films. There he introduced audiences to directors such as Costa-Gavras, Werner Herzog, and Nicolas Roeg. He employed Noelle Gillmor to create a more accurate version of subtitles for Costa-Gavras’s film, Z, paying her $100,000 and leaving her to work undisturbed for six months. The result was the finest and most expensive example of subtitling in the history of cinema. He was an eccentric figure, considered a mad genius, who really respected artists and who ended up bankrupt. (I met him once when I was in my early 20s and when he heard that I wrote poetry he offered me a job in one of his theaters!) Ira Deutchman is in the final stages of completing a documentary about him. He's been somewhat forgotten, but there are a few articles about him online such as this one:

https://www.moviemaker.com/archives/blogs/blog-my-life-as-a-blog/my-life-as-a-blog-donald-rugoff-in-memory-of-a-wild-genius/

[James DiEugenio]

Rob,

Thanks for that info about Rugoff.  Seems like a bygone era when American distributors were really interested in good foreign films.  Today, you can almost forget it.  In fact, I think David Denby wrote a book about how foreign films get hardly an distribution in America today at all.

 

Rich and Mike:

There were two editions then of the DMN?

It was a long time ago, but I recall getting my diagram from the microfilm at the Dallas Library.

Edited May 28, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

I should have added about the Grann book, in addition to the Osage murders being such a great story about an oppressed minority, another reason I decided to review it is because it showed how a large, well organized conspiracy can work.  It also showed how the cover up can be enacted to conceal that conspiracy, using some of the same players and means of those in the conspiracy.

Third, it showed how local authorities could not deal with such a powerful, secret force.

Fourth, it showed how you needed a really uncompromising, dedicated lawman to deal with such a plot.  His name was Tom White.  That character in Z was Jean Louis T. In Iran/Contra it was Walsh, thwarted by Bush.

In the Kennedy case, I think it would have been Sprague. Conspiracies are as American as Mom and apple pie.

Here is that review if you are interested: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/11/the-osage-indian-murder-mystery/

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Rich:

I agree that the last one did show it going down Main Street.  Puzzling about two editions though.

As to your question, the motorcade route did end up taking the dogleg.  

 

[Gene Kelly]

Going up to 1,000 feet, its way too coincidental (if you don't believe in coincidence, particularly in this case) that the President's motorcade goes thru the L-turn and past the TSBD (with a convenient patsy in place).  Whether that route was "influenced" or not, its just way too coincidental. Joe McBride's finding that Ken O'Donnell influenced this route is an interesting paradigm shift.   In other words, JFK had other liabilities that weren't just Dulles, CIA and the usual suspects.  This route mirrors other assassination strategies (e.g. DeGaulle).  Its a perfect killing zone.   It cannot be just coincidental.

[Steve Jaffe]

Regarding the motorcade route, it seems clear that the Secret Service was in charge, not the White House (see Jerry Bruno's book on "Dallas"). That the actual route was Main St. or Elm was something known internally. Garrison thought it had been known but not published intentionally. It broke all Secret Service rules. Slow down the target for the triangulated crossfire. The removal of agent Lawton from the back of the presidential limo at the airport by Roberts speaks volumes. 

[James DiEugenio]

Someone sent me something about the two different editions.

It appears the early edition of the DMN had the motorcade route going down Main, and they then yanked it for the weather forecast in the later edition.